India S-400 Acquisition - News Updates and Discussions

abingdonboy

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We are probably the only major power in the world that so utterly neglected its indigenous defense industry. I still cannot fathom how this country that got it so right on space research, got it so wrong on defense research. We must make it a national resolution to get off this dependence on foreign defense systems.
Sadly, it’s all about the $$$. ISRO got off lucky because India was sanctioned so there literally was no way for the swamp to make money from space, defence became their cash cow.

I am 100% convinced there are scores of people on the payroll of foreign defence companies within the Indian military, MOD and political class.


There’s no other explanation for why Indian defence industry gets so little support and why these imports for even basic requirements still keep happening.

It is NOT a question of capability. Give Indian projects Time and a reasonable budget and they will deliver. Sadly the support isn’t there. IA wants a rifle? Industry comes up with 2-3, IA keeps moving goalposts and making ridiculous requirements till govt gives in and signs a “fast track” deal for a foreign deal. Why s400 when XRSAM is in the works?

Sadly I have little
Confidence that modi will fix this, under his rule needless deals like the NUH, S400, NGMV, P75(I), KA-226, Talwars etc etc have been pushed.

India is the laughing stock of the world. Will be a $5TN economy and still the world’s largest importers. And the biggest joke is that GOI is setting high targets for exporting defence equipment when they themselves won’t even sign contracts for the same equipment for Indian armed forces
 

Armand2REP

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India will not tell how the payment is done or when it is done. There is no need for anyone other than India and Russia to know about it. This doesn't mean you get to make any assumptions. India doesn't care for CAATSA in any way. So, no need to speculate whether India will back off or not
It isn't speculation, it is what is being reported as what the Russians are saying. They haven't been paid.
 

ezsasa

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Sadly, it’s all about the $$$. ISRO got off lucky because India was sanctioned so there literally was no way for the swamp to make money from space, defence became their cash cow.

I am 100% convinced there are scores of people on the payroll of foreign defence companies within the Indian military, MOD and political class.


There’s no other explanation for why Indian defence industry gets so little support and why these imports for even basic requirements still keep happening.

It is NOT a question of capability. Give Indian projects Time and a reasonable budget and they will deliver. Sadly the support isn’t there. IA wants a rifle? Industry comes up with 2-3, IA keeps moving goalposts and making ridiculous requirements till govt gives in and signs a “fast track” deal for a foreign deal. Why s400 when XRSAM is in the works?

Sadly I have little
Confidence that modi will fix this, under his rule needless deals like the NUH, S400, NGMV, P75(I), KA-226, Talwars etc etc have been pushed.

India is the laughing stock of the world. Will be a $5TN economy and still the world’s largest importers. And the biggest joke is that GOI is setting high targets for exporting defence equipment when they themselves won’t even sign contracts for the same equipment for Indian armed forces
You are forgetting one factor that delays defence acquisitions, earlier when a deal is in final phases of tender process someone or the other would raise objections and it takes years to clear those objections. Objections are raised by both foreign and domestic players.
 

Vijyes

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Confident S-400 will be delivered to India on time : Almaz Antey

The manufacturer of the S-400 surface-to-air missile system that is in the middle of a controversy with the US government threatening sanctions against nations ordering it says that it is confident of delivering the Indian order on time, despite a tight time schedule.

The North Western production plant of Almaz-Antey is working at full steam, given a flurry of orders from Russian forces, Turkey and India and is being geared up for a high rate of manufacturing to meet emerging requirements, officials say.

Delivering the systems on time – the contract stipulates delivery of five regiments for the air force between 2020 and 2024 – is critical given the delay in payments for the contract that were impacted due to financial sanction imposed by the US on entities dealing with Russian arms companies.



As reported by ET, the payments issue has been resolved and bulk advances are expected to be sent shortly for the S-400 systems. This will kick start the production process that was originally planned to commence late last year.

“The production facility here is equipped with state-of-art equipment, we have a highly automated production line. Even though the start of production is late and even given the fact that there are other orders, we are absolutely sure that the production lines can work to deliver the first systems on time,” Irina Volokitina, first deputy director, Almaz Antey told ET.

The production plant is where the mainstay of Russian anti-air systems are being manufactured and tested in all-weather conditions before the final delivery.

Almaz-Antey believes that the S- 400 is the best anti-aircraft system due to its three competitive attributes. “The system is capable of detecting an enemy at twice the range of its rivals. It can be deployed three times as fast as the competition and thirdly, it is priced very competitively,” the official said.

The Russian company has also started work on the next generation S-500 system that it says will be capable of targeting all future aircraft being developed in the next 25-year period.

In October 2018, India and Russia entered their biggest defence deal in over two decades for the S-400 systems but the challenge was in transferring the $ 5.43 billion for the contract that could invite financial sanctions by the US.

India will have five regiments of the system that will strengthen air defences in the face of depleting fighter squadrons of the air force. The S-400 regiments will be delivered starting 2020 and are likely to be deployed to cover both the Pakistani and Chinese borders. Beijing incidentally has already taken delivery of the systems that are considered to be the biggest threat to western origin combat aircraft.

The Russian system is being bought under special waivers from the Indian offset policy given its cutting edge technology. As reported by ET, the high cost of the S-400 prompted a rare intervention in 2016 by then defence minister Manohar Parrikar to alter India’s air defence plans. The exercise showed that the acquisition would save the taxpayer ?49,300 crore in a 15 year period (The correspondent is in St Petersburg on the invitation of the stateowned Shipbuilding Corporation)
 

WolfPack86

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As Turkey receives its first S-400 missile system under an angry Trump cloud, I report from the same Russian site that will deliver S-400 regiments to India from next year — and why the makers are confident about meeting Indian deadlines.
 

Mikesingh

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So Turkey has wiggled its thumb at Trump's nose. And he's pissed off no end! Will Turkey be kicked out of NATO for defying the US? I don't think so as Turkey is a bridgehead in West Asia which the US badly needs. And Turkey is among the member countries that contributed most to NATO budget. In 2018, Turkey contributed €89.8 million ($101 million) to the common funding of NATO.

Apart from funding Turkey is one of the key countries -- along with Romania, Poland and Spain-- for NATO's missile shield project against Russia. In addition, Turkey hosts LANDCOM, NATO's land command, in western coastal province of Izmir.

Furthermore, NATO Rapid Deployable Corps -- one of nine NATO land forces headquarters with high readiness level -- is stationed in Istanbul. Ankara is going to take the command of Very High Readiness Joint Task Force (VJTF) in 2021.

So I think Turkey can afford to cock a snook at the US as the latter would be the losers if Turkey leaves NATO. The US needs Turkey as much as Turkey needs the US.

For all that bonbast from Trump, there's not a word from him after the S-400s landed in Turkey. But let's wait and see what he tweets!

Here's a two-minute-long video by Turkish Defence Ministry that shows fan AN-124 cargo plane offloading equipment at the Murted airbase.


 

vampyrbladez

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So Turkey has wiggled its thumb at Trump's nose. And he's pissed off no end! Will Turkey be kicked out of NATO for defying the US? I don't think so as Turkey is a bridgehead in West Asia which the US badly needs. And Turkey is among the member countries that contributed most to NATO budget. In 2018, Turkey contributed €89.8 million ($101 million) to the common funding of NATO.

Apart from funding Turkey is one of the key countries -- along with Romania, Poland and Spain-- for NATO's missile shield project against Russia. In addition, Turkey hosts LANDCOM, NATO's land command, in western coastal province of Izmir.

Furthermore, NATO Rapid Deployable Corps -- one of nine NATO land forces headquarters with high readiness level -- is stationed in Istanbul. Ankara is going to take the command of Very High Readiness Joint Task Force (VJTF) in 2021.

So I think Turkey can afford to cock a snook at the US as the latter would be the losers if Turkey leaves NATO. The US needs Turkey as much as Turkey needs the US.

For all that bonbast from Trump, there's not a word from him after the S-400s landed in Turkey. But let's wait and see what he tweets!

Here's a two-minute-long video by Turkish Defence Ministry that shows fan AN-124 cargo plane offloading equipment at the Murted airbase.


Could simply allow the US to get it's hands on the S 400 tech.

Meanwhile the USN has SM 3 BLK IIA/B and SM 6 which are generations ahead of even the S 500!

The US army has the AMRAAM - ER (NASAM), THAAD and PAC 3 MSE which is about the same as S 400 integrated together.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...to-air-missile-system-u-s-capital-may-be-next

https://breakingdefense.com/2019/03/army-reboots-cruise-missile-defense-ifpc-iron-dome/

Democrats being influenced by Chinese lobby to interfere in SM 3 BLK IIA testing.

https://insidedefense.com/daily-new...ion-delaying-sm-3-block-iia-test-against-icbm
 

vampyrbladez

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Aegis Ashore missile defence system in Romania undergoes scheduled update

11 Apr. 2019 | Last updated: 11 Apr. 2019 12:58

NATO’s Aegis Ashore Ballistic Missile Defence site in Romania will undergo a long-planned update this summer. This update, which has been taking place across the Aegis Ballistic Missile Defence system fleet, will not provide any offensive capability to the Aegis Ashore missile defence system.


NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg at the inaugural ceremony of Aegis Ashore, Deveselu Base (Romania), May 2016

The scheduled update is part of the United States European Phased Adaptive Approach to ballistic missile defence, which was announced in September 2009.

During the update, the United States will fulfill its commitment to NATO's Ballistic Missile Defence by the temporary deployment of a Terminal High Altitude Area Defense (THAAD) system to Deveselu in Romania. The THAAD unit will be under NATO operational control and the full political control of the North Atlantic Council. It will only remain operational until the Aegis Ashore Romania site is back online. The update and deployment are expected to last several weeks.

In accordance with NATO's Ballistic Missile Defence system, the THAAD unit will be focused on potential threats from outside the Euro-Atlantic area. Aegis Ashore Romania is purely a defensive system.

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/news_165671.htm
 

Vijyes

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Could simply allow the US to get it's hands on the S 400 tech.

Meanwhile the USN has SM 3 BLK IIA/B and SM 6 which are generations ahead of even the S 500!
S400 has been made such a way that it can't be reverse engineered. Russia has said that it will sell s400 to even canada if it asks. So, i don't think Turkey giving it to USA counts.

SM3 and SM6 after not generation ahead of S400. SM6 recently missed its interception in a test. S400 is very accurate. Russians use analog chipset which gives advantage of extremely small reaction time compared to digital chipset of USA.
 

B0seRaoMenonModi

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Like somebody said before India is milking cow for USSR to dump their secondhand defence products(from last 70 years).Of-course they helped a little in space research but...
Yet India had never lost a war with pakistan with its "secondhand defence products".

Who else would lease you nuclear submarines and sell you modern jet fighters for freaking rice?

Indians are getting ungrateful like Chinese and forgetting who helped them when no one else would piss on us if we were on fire.


Pride comes before the fall ask the Pakistanis and yanks
 

asianobserve

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S400 has been made such a way that it can't be reverse engineered. Russia has said that it will sell s400 to even canada if it asks. So, i don't think Turkey giving it to USA counts.

SM3 and SM6 after not generation ahead of S400. SM6 recently missed its interception in a test. S400 is very accurate. Russians use analog chipset which gives advantage of extremely small reaction time compared to digital chipset of USA.

Why would the US reverse engineer an inferior system with inferior electronics?

With S-400 in Turkey US spies deep inside Turkish military will hand-over US all important tech and performance specs of S-400 to allow the US to get an accurate profile of S-400.

But Turkey is out of F-35 program and it is looking at the barrel of economic sanctions. If the US sanctions Turkey its economy will go to the dogs. Remember that Erdogan just lost his hometown Istanbul, it'll be curious how he maneuvers to hold on to power if the Turkish economy is pushed over the brink.

From almost any angle, this S-400 hubris of Erdogan is not good for Turkey (and unwittingly, even for Russia).
 
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Vijyes

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Why would the US reverse engineer an inferior system with inferior electronics?

With S-400 in Turkey US spies deep inside Turkish military will hand-over US all important tech and performance specs of S-400 to allow the US to get an accurate profile of S-400.

But Turkey is out of F-35 program and it is looking at the barrel of economic sanctions. If the US sanctions Turkey its economy will go to the dogs. Remember that Erdogan just lost his hometown Istanbul, it'll be curious how he maneuvers to hold on to power if the Turkish economy is pushed over the brink.

From almost any angle, this S-400 hubris of Erfogan is not good for Turkey (and unwittingly, even for Russia).
Again, talked as if an agent of USA. Why is S400 inferior? Do you know the capability of it and its ability to network and guide missiles yo pin point accuracy?

Why do you think Russia doesn't know the risks of giving technology to Turkey? Russia has said that it will give S400 to Canada,which is practically a USA's state knowing that USA will get access to it.

Russia has export version of S400 which it sells after modifying it to ensure no critical secret can be accessed by enemies.

Erdogan is having ego issues. He has rivalry with Saudi Arabia who aligned with USA have the power to manipulate politics of Turkey. What is KSA aligned mullahs instructed their followers to not vote Erdogan? So, these kind of losses have no real relevance in the grand scheme of things. USA not selling F35 to Turkey will not change much for Erdogan. USA anyways was reluctant to sell weapons to Turkey after 2003. Erdogan himself has told that USA has been sanctioning several weapons systems from being sold to Turkey. Also, Erdogan has been bailed out by Qatar and hence is unlikely to fail.

I don't want to talk of turkey now as it has no relevance in S400 of India. Let us talk about Turkey in another thread.

I don't understand, how did you claim that Russia is losing in any way? What does Russia got to lose?
 

Hari Sud

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US in its own way has thrown a challenge at india. If india buys S-400 then repercussions will be felt in economy, trade, finance, future military purchases etc. Even if india as retaliation cancels a few American military purchases, that is a small dent in America’s overall economic leadership.

Now the question is how India gets out of this tricky situation. Knowing Trump over past two years, he is likely to come heavily on india. Turkey is key example. He is going to teach Turkey a lesson which they are unlikely to forget. His Party and Democrats will support him.

Can we negotiate with Trump a freeze on US military parts and hardware supply. Can he order others in Europe not to fulfill military orders already placed. It is unlikely to happen but it is worth a try. Chinese cannot fulfill the gap that the Americans will create. We need US to sabotage the Pakistani nuclear and missile program. It is hardest to do but if Uranium supply is withheld, that will huge repercussions in Pakistan, although they have enough supplies but all those supplies will not last for ever. Can Trump tell North Korea, China, Ukraine and Poland (Poland supplied the Babur missile tech.) to stop all co-operation. The forgoing are the reasons that india opted for S-400 system. If Trump removes all causes then cure in unnecessary.

India needs US and it’s goodwill to grow to $5 trillion economy. Finance, trade and technology is key to this target. We do not wish to eat grass. That is reserved for Pakistan.
 

Vijyes

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India needs US and it’s goodwill to grow to $5 trillion economy. Finance, trade and technology is key to this target. We do not wish to eat grass. That is reserved for Pakistan.
Why spread fake news? What is USA giving India that is helping India in developing its economy? How is USA benefiting India without benefiting itself? How is a mutual deal called goodwill?
 

ezsasa

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Why spread fake news? What is USA giving India that is helping India in developing its economy? How is USA benefiting India without benefiting itself? How is a mutual deal called goodwill?
$ based global economy...
Is there an alternative to it at the moment?

And also the fact that all senior PMO economic advisors are US based. India is more integrated into the US economy than we think.
 

Vijyes

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$ based global economy...
Is there an alternative to it at the moment?

And also the fact that all senior PMO economic advisors are US based. India is more integrated into the US economy than we think.
It is petrodollar based economy, not dollar. So, USA have to act according to what oil supplier states of arabia want. Our deal is with Arabs, not USA. So, we already have got rid of USA dominance. USA cutting out India will not be possible without Arabs agreeing and that won't happen

PMO economic advisors may be USA based but they are Indians with USA education. It is incorrect to say that they will aid USA. Moreover, most of the advisors in non economic areas are not USA based.

India is not integrated with USA economy absolutely. USA relies on trade with India to sustain its economy. USA is already having debts of $500 billion a year. It can't afford to cause more chaos by alienating India. If USA alienates India, USA dollar will no longer be accepted internationally. USA economy will collapse due to extraordinary pressure and reaction that will follow. So, USA has more to lose than India.
 

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