India S-400 Acquisition - News Updates and Discussions

Immanuel

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Now it's look like who will have last laugh.
Fuck this h-1b we have to stop this disproportionate way of Google transferring money to uncle Sam.
The money that is going to US COMPANIES IS WAY BIGGER.
If we do this I am sure other countries will follow, that's why uncle Sam is getting irritation.
Man, every time an american official come in this country it's look like a new way of bullying has started.
It's not bullying when they are trying to rectify years and years of bad trade practices. Let's be real, India is a tariff heavy nation and Trump is fully right to want to correct that and wants better access for their companies, products and services. It's natural. They have vast economic strength and interests to do so.

If we cry bully every time we get into a unfavorable discussion, we will never achieve self actualization as a nation.

These are minor trade and policy squabbles and will be dealt with. Compromise will happen when needed. Word has it, early discussions have begun on a new Indo-US trade agreement. It aims to allow fairer trade between the nations. It'll take sometime, some patience but it is in our best interest to have the US as a close strategic ally.

It is also better to deal with an administration in the US which is clear cut in it's intentions and explains it's hard limits well, political correctness is out of the window. We never had this kind of dialogue with the US before, neither did any of the US traditional allies. All things are being discussed.

In comparison all previous discussions with vanilla Republican and Dem Admins during Bush and Ombaba years, more than 80% of the time we were left confused about their approach which was worse.
 

Immanuel

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Su30 MKI we bought almost 272 for a grand total of 12-13 billion USD . Even if iaf spends 10billion to maintain fleet over life time and another 10-15 billion to upgrade to super sukhoi much closer to rafale standard still the whole fleet plus maintenance will be around 30 billion usd over 40 years.
For 30 billion dollars we might have got only 150 western fighter at best.

So even with Lower availablity su30 MKI is more bang for buck.


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Lower availability is concern of the past. Peacetime MKI availability is now 70-75% which was the rate IAF accepts. Wartime availability can go beyond 90% for several weeks.
 

Vijyes

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That may not apply to S-400!
Russia was actually quite reluctant to sell S-400 to India...in fact tied its sale to FGFA and other purchases. It's India that desperately wants S-400, so Russia may not be dictated by any Indian policy/demand.
How do you know that Russia linked it to FGFA? Moreover, why does India want S400ifit doesn't give Technology? The while point if buying weapons for a country like India is to get Technology. The small number of S400 SAM is meaningless for a big country like India. So, the only option for real full scale defence or offence is by having indigenised mass manufacturing.

Why Engage with WVR R-73 when you will out out gunned in BVR
Because it has rules of engagement where India can't fire the missile unless they are crossing the border. Otherwise, India could have fired R77 missile too which it did not do. Also, we were talking of MICA. You are repeatedly changing topic. R73 is comparable to MICA and there is no need to crave for MICA

This is not from high end sources. We have seen such news even before.

Unless India is irrational, there is no need for buying S400 without Technology. Critical technology can't be simply bought as it requires quantity to fight in wars. Quantity can't come without indigenisation of Technology
Yes...Russia has repeatedly refused to abide by Offset Clause (among other prominent violations of the DPP) but we continue to bend over backwards for them while expecting all other vendors to strictly comply or be blacklisted.
Offset is irrelevant. Russia did not give offset for Su30 MKI either. It simply handed over the Technology. Russia rarely ever invests in making industry in other countries. The offsets are mainly directed at CAPITALIST states, not Russia. Russia functions differently.
It doesn't matter what you think Russia should do!
Russia did try to leverage S-400 deal to push FGFA to India - that's a fact!!
FGFA was potentially a $25 billion deal, that India walked out of.
How do you know? Rumours spread by some journalists using sources? If Russia is not giving any Technology in S400, how is it useful to India in the first place to use it as leverage?

It's not bullying when they are trying to rectify years and years of bad trade practices. Let's be real, India is a tariff heavy nation and Trump is fully right to want to correct that and wants better access for their companies, products and services. It's natural. They have vast economic strength and interests to do so.

If we cry bully every time we get into a unfavorable discussion, we will never achieve self actualization as a nation.

These are minor trade and policy squabbles and will be dealt with. Compromise will happen when needed. Word has it, early discussions have begun on a new Indo-US trade agreement. It aims to allow fairer trade between the nations. It'll take sometime, some patience but it is in our best interest to have the US as a close strategic ally.

It is also better to deal with an administration in the US which is clear cut in it's intentions and explains it's hard limits well, political correctness is out of the window. We never had this kind of dialogue with the US before, neither did any of the US traditional allies. All things are being discussed.

In comparison all previous discussions with vanilla Republican and Dem Admins during Bush and Ombaba years, more than 80% of the time we were left confused about their approach which was worse.
Let us be clear that many of the agreement and deals with USA is based on political leverage rather than direct trade and transaction. So, things are not as simple as you want it to be. I agree that USA wants to dominate financial services and IT services and is reluctant to allow India to replace it and hence will impose costs, but this is still in Indian interests to go for data localisation and taxing of foreign IT companies. The losses from H1B remittance is still lesser than benefits to India by data localisation.

It is not in Indian interests to care too much for USA in one sided manner. India benefits less than USA compared to what USA benefits from India in political leverage in geopolitics. So, one has to be more complex in thinking
 

Enquirer

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How do you know that Russia linked it to FGFA? Moreover, why does India want S400ifit doesn't give Technology? The while point if buying weapons for a country like India is to get Technology. The small number of S400 SAM is meaningless for a big country like India. So, the only option for real full scale defence or offence is by having indigenised mass manufacturing.

How do you know? Rumours spread by some journalists using sources? If Russia is not giving any Technology in S400, how is it useful to India in the first place to use it as leverage?
So I should rather believe the speculation of an anonymous yahoo on a forum?

Problem with forums like this one is that folks delude themselves that whatever they type here is a command that the entire world will follow!

Why do you even believe that S-400 is even being considered? Did Putin or Modi whisper directly in your ear?
 

Vijyes

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So I should rather believe the speculation of an anonymous yahoo on a forum?

Problem with forums like this one is that folks delude themselves that whatever they type here is a command that the entire world will follow!

Why do you even believe that S-400 is even being considered? Did Putin or Modi whisper directly in your ear?
I am only saying these are the options-
1) India did a stupid mistake or intentional sabotage by buying S400 without any further strategic implications other than purchase of the limited set of systems.
2) India calculated well and did what is beneficial in the long run by getting S400 with Technology transfer.

No, depending on how you assess the intellect and intention of RSS and Modi-Doval team, you should choose amongst the two choices above.

This is how calculation is done. I am not asking you yo listen to me. I am only asking you to calculate
 

Defcon 1

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While there is no proof, it is not an unreasonable speculation that the S400 deal involves TOT, considering the fact that even Turkey, which is spending less that 40% of the amount spent by us on S400, is getting TOT.

Obviously things will get clearer in future.
 

Immanuel

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Let us be clear that many of the agreement and deals with USA is based on political leverage rather than direct trade and transaction. So, things are not as simple as you want it to be. I agree that USA wants to dominate financial services and IT services and is reluctant to allow India to replace it and hence will impose costs, but this is still in Indian interests to go for data localisation and taxing of foreign IT companies. The losses from H1B remittance is still lesser than benefits to India by data localisation.

It is not in Indian interests to care too much for USA in one sided manner. India benefits less than USA compared to what USA benefits from India in political leverage in geopolitics. So, one has to be more complex in thinking
I don't think it's about domination, it's more about fair competition if one believes in free market principles. US has been overall a low to very low tariff region which has allowed for massive exports and unheard of deficits.

Your first statement is not entirely true, there is a lot of transaction and direct trade that happens between our countries, almost 54 Billion in Indian exports last year.

To believe the US dominates IT services is a joke. India has been running that market now for years. The US is just a front end for the Indian back end. Data localization is fine but there is a big cost and regulatory burden to it since it would apply for local companies as well. Let's see either way.

It is not in Indian's interest to pick annoying fights with the US. Being two democracies, there is a natural sync that will always remain.
 

ezsasa

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I don't think it's about domination, it's more about fair competition if one believes in free market principles. US has been overall a low to very low tariff region which has allowed for massive exports and unheard of deficits.

Your first statement is not entirely true, there is a lot of transaction and direct trade that happens between our countries, almost 54 Billion in Indian exports last year.

To believe the US dominates IT services is a joke. India has been running that market now for years. The US is just a front end for the Indian back end. Data localization is fine but there is a big cost and regulatory burden to it since it would apply for local companies as well. Let's see either way.

It is not in Indian's interest to pick annoying fights with the US. Being two democracies, there is a natural sync that will always remain.
Local companies already store their data in India itself, not much difference for indian companies.

Why only Americans have problem with this, not Europeans. It’s because Europeans already have data localisation laws and Americans did not make a fuss about it.

More over 10 years from now, we cannot be having 400-500 lakh crore economy’s digital “balls” in America’s hands.

Americans made a fuss about China’s data localisation too, but they moved on.
 

Immanuel

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Local companies already store their data in India itself, not much difference for indian companies.

Why only Americans have problem with this, not Europeans. It’s because Europeans already have data localisation laws and Americans did not make a fuss about it.
A lot of Indian companies have data overseas
 

ezsasa

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A lot of Indian companies have data overseas
You mean Paytm or older companies?

Paytm is the reason this debate got serious...

Edit:When you say overseas, you wan Singapore and hongkong is it?
 

IndianHawk

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Dude! Do you even read the entire conversation before you butt in with your posts?
No one ever said that Russia refused to sell S-400 to India. I was only postulating that India wasn't in a commanding position to demand ToT or offsets!
Also, geopolitics is more important in the case of Turkey (the prospect of destabilizing NATO) and China (where S-400 would defend against a potential US attack). Everything is not sold as onions and potatoes!
Your premises is flawed as turkey deal also includes technology transfer. So again no reason for India to deny the same to it's largest defense customer.

Geopolitics argument also apply to Russia - India ties as Russia has an interest in India China balance and Russia wants to stop Indo - USA alliance from cementing. Defending future Russian weapons sales are also important.

Your understanding of geopolitics is pretty naive .

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Defcon 1

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Does this statement of yours holds true for every NATO member in an arms deal with Russia or for Turkey only?
NATO is an alliance primarily created to counter Russia and proxies. S-400 in NATO backyard via Turkey should be an outrage. Technically they should be ejected out of NATO. They are unwashed Napaki loving Abduls anyways.
 

WARREN SS

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Because it has rules of engagement where India can't fire the missile unless they are crossing the border. Otherwise, India could have fired R77 missile too which it did not do. Also, we were talking of MICA. You are repeatedly changing topic. R73 is comparable to MICA and there is no need to crave for MICA
I know ROE 1999

But read reports of Live fist bu shiv aroor that F-16 successfully able launch multiple slavos of Aim-120C
While Su-30 MKI didn't have solutions of R-77

It's clear AMRAAM is way Suprior to R-77

As For MICA it has its own edge over -R-73

MICA Have ability to attack 360 degree with From 0 to 7 km MICA has maneuverability of 50g
 

Vijyes

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I don't think it's about domination, it's more about fair competition if one believes in free market principles. US has been overall a low to very low tariff region which has allowed for massive exports and unheard of deficits.

Your first statement is not entirely true, there is a lot of transaction and direct trade that happens between our countries, almost 54 Billion in Indian exports last year.

To believe the US dominates IT services is a joke. India has been running that market now for years. The US is just a front end for the Indian back end. Data localization is fine but there is a big cost and regulatory burden to it since it would apply for local companies as well. Let's see either way.

It is not in Indian's interest to pick annoying fights with the US. Being two democracies, there is a natural sync that will always remain.
USA dominates service and Technology fields and in turn uses trade as political leverage to maintain dominance. If USA has to maintain dependence, it has to have leverage and hence creates that with trade of simple and cheap goods and services while keeping all the expensive ones to itself. USA doesn't have high tax but has high premium and royalty charges along with political condition to impose its dominance.

USA is the one dominating in IT and high end services & Technology. India only does small and low paying jobs. USA has massive service trade surplus because of this reason itself. USA assists its IT companies get a foothold across the world by dominance in semiconductor and dollar as global currency. This is what USA wants to protect by preventing data localisation of India.

Indian companies already store data in India as the cost is lower. USA companies store data in USA not because of costs but due to political pressure of USA government and political assistance USA government provides in legal terms. For example, Google chose to quit China instead of agreeing to Chinese government terms on data collection. This was a political move rather than economic one. So, this data localisation threat against India is also a tactic to ensure dominance of USA in IT sector.

But as Indian economy grows, it can't have data stored in USA. Already Indian economy is reaching $3 trillion and is set yo grow to $5 trillion. The share of money saved by having a $3 trillion economy by data localisation far outweighs that of $12 billion remittance from USA H1B. Moreover, $7 billion is spent by Indian students in USA education. The net is about $5 billion. If H1B is cut down, students will stop going to USA for education and hence save some money here. Net loss to India will be $5 billion or less whereas net profit from localisation will far exceed this.

Being democracy doesn't mean anything except that people.rule the country. Just like 2 kingdoms need not be friends, neither do 2 democracy need to be friends. Citing democracy as reason for friendship is absurd.
 

Shashank Nayak

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I know ROE 1999

But read reports of Live fist bu shiv aroor that F-16 successfully able launch multiple slavos of Aim-120C
While Su-30 MKI didn't have solutions of R-77

It's clear AMRAAM is way Suprior to R-77

As For MICA it has its own edge over -R-73

MICA Have ability to attack 360 degree with From 0 to 7 km MICA has maneuverability of 50g
F-16s were flying at around 40000 ft whereas su-30 mki were flying at around 15000 ft. The range of BVRAAM is reduced by quite a large margin when it has to climb up... The AMRAAM too would have faced similar difficulties if the circumstances were reversed..
 

IndianHawk

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I know ROE 1999

But read reports of Live fist bu shiv aroor that F-16 successfully able launch multiple slavos of Aim-120C
While Su-30 MKI didn't have solutions of R-77

It's clear AMRAAM is way Suprior to R-77

As For MICA it has its own edge over -R-73

MICA Have ability to attack 360 degree with From 0 to 7 km MICA has maneuverability of 50g
It was not an optimal move.
F16 launched aim 120c first. So they had advantage over su30 which only went airborne after f16 were spotted.

Since aim 120c were fired from such a large distance su30 MKI was out of their no escape zone and with powerful jammer su30 was able to suppress all aim120 during this for safety su30 also cranked away from incoming aim120.

Once su30 were secure paki were on the run. Distance between MKI and f16 was now even larger and growing hence f16 were out of nez of r77 so our pilots didn't waste it !

Now why didn't su30 directly fired at f16 even before f16 fired aim 120? Because ROE were in place till then. So paki broke it to take advantage.

Lesson of it = don't trust porky to follow rule of civilized warfare. Shoot when see a porky no matter what the rule.

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WARREN SS

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It was not an optimal move.
F16 launched aim 120c first. So they had advantage over su30 which only went airborne after f16 were spotted.

Since aim 120c were fired from such a large distance su30 MKI was out of their no escape zone and with powerful jammer su30 was able to suppress all aim120 during this for safety su30 also cranked away from incoming aim120.

Once su30 were secure paki were on the run. Distance between MKI and f16 was now even larger and growing hence f16 were out of nez of r77 so our pilots didn't waste it !

Now why didn't su30 directly fired at f16 even before f16 fired aim 120? Because ROE were in place till then. So paki broke it to take advantage.

Lesson of it = don't trust porky to follow rule of civilized warfare. Shoot when see a porky no matter what the rule.

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All report suggested that BAR's locked
F-16 way before but R-77 didn't have solutions to get launch command from mission computer

While F-16 fired Missile's way before
But they successfully made Su-30 for evasive manoeuvres

That let mig-21 let into there trap
 

IndianHawk

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All report suggested that BAR's locked
F-16 way before but R-77 didn't have solutions to get launch command from mission computer

While F-16 fired Missile's way before
But they successfully made Su-30 for evasive manoeuvres

That let mig-21 let into there trap
Yes they were still out of r77 NEZ. So firing r77 wouldn't have been effective and ROE were not broken yet.

Even if iaf had f16 with aim120 iaf still wouldn't fire aim 120 unless paki plane were near the NEZ of missile. That's what professionals do! Paki proved both lack of discipline and tactics and lost costly aim120c and lost the reputation of both missile and f16 out of shear incompetence.

Mig21 knew it was going into trap. It's just that abhinandan had f16 on lock and dared to kill.
He could have chosen to back down but he wasn't a coward.

If paki were as brave as abhi they would've came closer to su30mki before firing aim120 but then they themselves would be in nez of r77. So they chose the cowards way out and launch a solvo from a large distance and failed.

If it was abhi in paki f16 we would have lost 2-3 MKI. Thank gods mucchad is on our side and paki are idiot cowards.

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WolfPack86

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Well the way through is pretty clear — S-400 deal with Russia & NASAMS-II deal with the U.S.
 

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