India S-400 Acquisition - News Updates and Discussions

[Dark Sorrow]

Would it be more advantageous to us if we collaborate with the Israelis and and modify PAD/AAD (solid fueled) or Barak-8 or Akash with Swordfish Radar and locally manufacture them in India.

 

[bengalraider]

Would it be more advantageous to us if we collaborate with the Israelis and and modify PAD/AAD (solid fueled) or Barak-8 or Akash with Swordfish Radar and locally manufacture them in India.

We are doing all of that, however the S400 is in a class of it's own purely on range. Like I've pointed out before what we're building is a complete modern air defence net that should hold for the next two decades minimum.
PAD-BMD role(IRBM)
S400-VLRSAM+BMD(SRBM)
BARAK8-LRSAM
AKASH-MRSAM
SPYDER-SRSAM
Tungushka/Pantsir/other-point defence
We are also looking at buying/manufacturing new VSHORADS &AA guns.
The aerostat & ground radars of the entire IAF are being interlinked with civilian radar as well. This job is being done on phases with a few phases already complete.

 

[tharun]

Looking at S-400 numbers like 4.8 km/s with a range of 400km of max.....that means with in 100(1:30 Min) seconds the missile will be out of fuel...
We can also make this type of solid fuel motor which can burn for 100 sec....theoretically we can also make SAM with a range of 400km......Every thing here is upto my knowledge

 

[bengalraider]

Looking at S-400 numbers like 4.8 km/s with a range of 400km of max.....that means with in 100(1:30 Min) seconds the missile will be out of fuel...
We can also make this type of solid fuel motor which can burn for 100 sec....theoretically we can also make SAM with a range of 400km......Every thing here is upto my knowledge

We can and we will, but a motor alone does not a missile make. Building a comparable system will take a lot of developmental funding and time, both of which are a luxury for us I might add..
The Israelis did what you mentioned and built a comparable system called David's Sling with a 300km range.Should join service with them later this year.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

i always had a question how you detect and track a bogey at such extreme distance with EW activities like jamming and deception, are going on? With advent of stealth technologies things must be even difficult!!!

 

[tharun]

We can and we will, but a motor alone does not a missile make. Building a comparable system will take a lot of developmental funding and time, both of which are a luxury for us I might add..
The Israelis did what you mentioned and built a comparable system called David's Sling with a 300km range.Should join service with them later this year.

Yes i Know building motor alone cannot be useful we need radar inside and much more technologies...
But we can use Akash technology for just for demonstrator so that russians will come to us for negotiations....

 

[garg_bharat]

Radars can be networked. A real-time picture of incoming aircrafts can be built using several radars.

I guess benefit of longer range missiles is to protect launchers from attack.

 

[Kshatriya87]

i always had a question how you detect and track a bogey at such extreme distance with EW activities like jamming and deception, are going on? With advent of stealth technologies things must be even difficult!!!

I think those measures are only available on aircrafts, not missiles. So we can always rely on missile defence against missiles.

Just a guess, I might be wrong.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

I think those measures are only available on aircrafts, not missiles. So we can always rely on missile defence against missiles.

Just a guess, I might be wrong.

I was talking about how radars in S-400 missile system will track bogey's at such extreme distance.
What is the effective detection/tracking distance?

 

[bengalraider]

I was talking about how radars in S-400 missile system will track bogey's at such extreme distance.
What is the effective detection/tracking distance?

The S400 is equipped with the 41N6 Panoramic Radar detection system that can detect targets 600km out,targeting varies as per size of the target but broadly it is as below

Maximum targeting range (detection radius is wider).

• For a ballistic target (speed of 4800 m/s and a radar cross-section of 0.4 square meters): 230 km.
• For a target with RCS of 4 square meters: 390 km.
• For targeting of strategic - bomber sized types: 570 km.

 

[bengalraider]

Anyhoo Just to easily explain what we are upto with the S400, we shall be mating the system to our own swordfish AESA LRTR radars built by DRDO with a detection radius of 800km.We are also developing a new improved swordfish with a 1500km detection range.
Just to give you all a clearer idea of the capabilities coming our way i made the graphics below.

1) Indian Radar Coverage with 5 Swordfish LRTR
Radars placed at Thirvuvanthanapuram, Guwahati,Bhuj ,Port Blair & Manali

We shall be able to see everything flying in Pakistan, Afghanistan, Kyrgyzstan, Myanmar,Bangladesh,Thailand,Cambodia, Sri Lanka, Nepal, Bhutan and most of Western China once these bad boys are deployed.

2) Indian SAM coverage with 6 S400 units
Units placed near Bhuj, Bikaner, Jammu, Bareilly, Gangtok and Dibrugarh

Look to the west we shall be be able to dominate Karachi, Hyderabad, Lahore, Islamabad, Sargodha , Rawalpindi and the Whole of Pakistan east of the Indus with only three S400 batteries.

 

[tharun]

We are doing all of that, however the S400 is in a class of it's own purely on range. Like I've pointed out before what we're building is a complete modern air defence net that should hold for the next two decades minimum.
PAD-BMD role(IRBM)
S400-VLRSAM+BMD(SRBM)
BARAK8-LRSAM
AKASH-MRSAM
SPYDER-SRSAM
Tungushka/Pantsir/other-point defence
We are also looking at buying/manufacturing new VSHORADS &AA guns.
The aerostat & ground radars of the entire IAF are being interlinked with civilian radar as well. This job is being done on phases with a few phases already complete.

Perfect Air defence we don't need that maitri missile..waste of money, for that money we can buy more S-400

 

[bengalraider]

Perfect Air defence we don't need that maitri missile..waste of money, for that money we can buy more S-400

Actually no We are developing the MAITRI as a Desi replacement of the SPYDER. We need to go indigenous in the long term.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

@bengalraider
if i may add beyond the isreali sword fish and lrtr radars there is also another solution which we are using now more aggressively.

We are now using aerostats more aggressively. DRDO plans are also aggressive in this segment.

The Nakshatra aerostat system aims to track a 450 kms radius, which is about four times the present 110 kms radius surveillance track of Akashdeep. The system being developed by the Aerial Delivery Research and Development Establishment (ADRDE), Agra can be tested up to 4.5 kms altitude, with a payload capacity of 800 kg to 1000 kg and will be 17,000 cubic meter volume.

Not much has been heard of the project since last two years. However, its scientists claim that the Akashdeep project is ready for use along borders, which has been tested at a height of 1 km with a payload of 300 kg.

so basically akashdeep at 110 km and nakhastra at 450 km feeds into our command system and acts as multiple point of detection even if topographical challenges exists for Long Ranged Radars

Nakshatra would be tested this year by the looks of a tender - Invitation of Bids for Hiring of Aerial Access platform for trial of Nakshatra Aerostat at Agra
http://eprocure.gov.in/epublish/app?page=FrontEndTenderDetailsExternal&service=page&tnid=383015

so basically this will provide us a much better lower cost solution with far better coverage scope

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Actually no We are developing the MAITRI as a Desi replacement of the SPYDER. We need to go indigenous in the long term.

There is a more probable chance that this whole segment of SRSAM may be closed as there will be anew active seeker in akash mk2 and in another 5-6 years a vertical astra will also be in the offing..

The original plan of using Trishul SAM and MBDA Seeker and other technology is now getting dated..

With the advent of dual pulse motor via Barak 8 project and use of more seekers which DRDO is developing, Maitri chances are getting limited

Source; drdo a glimpse

This coupled with the new seeker development confirmed by Astra Microwave here below confirms the advent of how much forward we have moved ahead and thus MAITRI project chances are getting diminished

source; conference call transcript - Astra Microwave filed in BSE/NSE

So the KU band seeker goes to Astra project as given above SS and Akash MK2 as told by Astra Microwave folks. Thus the Maitri needs get overlapped as 15km SRSAM need will be fully taken cared by upto 35 km Akash Mk2

 

[garg_bharat]

Actually no We are developing the MAITRI as a Desi replacement of the SPYDER. We need to go indigenous in the long term.

Is this project even ON?? Heard that Maitri has seen no progress in last four years.

 

[bengalraider]

@PARIKRAMA Thank you for pointing out the aerostats.The Swordfish gives us a bird's eye view,the aerostats fill in the details and complement info from AWACS and missile radars like the 41N6.All these systems are also going to be coupled to civilian Radars, they are all meant to complement each other.
@garg_bharat All I can say is that MBDA officials keep visiting Delhi almost every week, also Parrikar restarted the Maitri project last year after nearly a decade of inactivity.

http://www.livefistdefence.com/2015/03/indo-french-sr-sam-project-back-is-back.html?m=1

 

[bengalraider]

@PARIKRAMA Thank you for pointing out the aerostats.The Swordfish gives us a bird's eye view,the aerostats fill in the details and complement info from AWACS and missile radars like the 41N6.All these systems are also going to be coupled to civilian Radars, they are all meant to complement each other.
@garg_bharat All I can say is that MBDA officials keep visiting Delhi almost every week, also Parrikar restarted the Maitri project last year after nearly a decade of inactivity.

http://www.livefistdefence.com/2015/03/indo-french-sr-sam-project-back-is-back.html?m=1

 

[garg_bharat]

I stick with my view that French are messing up with the Indian mind. It is the fascination of Western goods, not only in military but also in scientific establishment. This fascination has not resulted in visible progress on the ground. The better path is to focus on real R&D possibly taking private sector as fabricators and contributors right from the word go.

 

[garg_bharat]

There is no harm in upgrading Russian SAM systems in the inventory currently.