India-Pakistan Relations

ajtr

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Ending the zero-sum game


Suhasini Haidar
In the months since the Mumbai attack, every high-level meeting between India and Pakistan has been throwing up one as a winner and the other as a loser.
It's practically a tradition to see India-Pakistan relations as a zero-sum game — if it is good for Pakistan, it must be bad for India and vice versa. Or so it seems to many on both sides of the border. But when all is said and done, is it really so?


In the months since the Mumbai attack, when regular dialogue has been suspended, every high-level meeting has been seen through that zero-sum prism, throwing up one as a winner and the other as a loser every time: If Yekaterinburg saw a snub for Pakistan when Prime Minister Manmohan Singh gave President Asif Ali Zardari a "dressing down" on terror, Sharm el-Sheikh put India on back foot after Prime Minister Syed Yusuf Raza Gilani slipped a reference to Balochistan past Dr. Singh. If India works on blocking China's nuclear deal with Pakistan, Islamabad feels satisfied that New Delhi has been blocked on gaining influence in Afghanistan.

The last two months have seen some change in that narrative — starting with Thimphu, where Dr. Singh and Mr. Gilani decided to make a fresh start — no scoring points ahead of their meeting, and briefings to the press after that were coordinated in content. In June, that change in strategy was more visible, first in meetings between the Foreign Secretaries, and then as Home Minister P. Chidambaram travelled to Islamabad and met the Pakistani leadership. His line was firm, sticking mainly to the agenda of more Pakistani action in the Mumbai attacks case, but he got assurances from Interior Minister Rehman Malik — from publicly agreeing to hand over voice samples of the 26/11 accused, to going after more suspects, and to "reconsidering the case against LeT founder Hafiz Saeed in the light of new evidence shared." Officials say the new avowal to act came after Mr. Chidambaram shared details of American LeT operative David Headley where he spoke of his meetings with Saeed.

Biggest shift

Perhaps the biggest shift on the part of Islamabad was accepting the centrality of action in the Mumbai attacks case to future relations between the countries. In the past, the responses of Pakistani leaders to India's pleas on the 26/11 investigation were helplessness ("We face a Mumbai-type attack everyday"), side-stepping ("Let's talk about the water problem too") and even counter-attack ("the dossier on Balochistan").

"Pakistan is coming out of denial," Foreign Minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi told CNN-IBN last week, "People here no longer see groups like the Taliban as friends."

Dr. Singh's efforts to move away from the zero-sum game may be a small part of the reason for that shift. Pakistan's internal pressures are the bigger part. The attacks of the past few months have triggered a backlash among ordinary Pakistanis not seen in the past. The first reason has been the nature and target of the attacks — the massacre of minorities at their place of worship.

While the killing of 94 Ahmediyas in prayer may have evoked a mute response, the suicide bombing at Datta Darbar, the shrine of the revered Sufi saint Hazrat Ali Hajveri, that killed 41 devotees some weeks later brought thousands out on the streets in protest. Shops shut down in cities across the country to mark the people's outrage. Interestingly, the target of the protests has been the Punjab government, not the federal government.

According to analysts based in Pakistan, this was not just outrage at the government's failure to maintain law and order, this was anger against the State government run by the PML-N's Shahbaz Sharif for its perceived support to extremist groups. It was Mr. Sharif who last year pleaded with the Taliban not to attack targets in Punjab because they were "of the same ideology." It was his Law Minister, Rana Sanaullah, who campaigned along with leaders of the anti-Shi'a radical group SSP, and his government that admitted to giving grants of Rs.8.2 crore to Hafiz Saeed's Jamaat-ud Dawa last year. Most notably in the protests, it was the clerics of the Sunni Ittehaad Council themselves who demanded that the government stop funding Saeed's outfit. The demand also points to the widening rift between Pakistan's original and majority Barelvi 'Sufi-ist' followers and Wahabi Deobandis like Saeed, who not only rants against India but also targets Ahmediyas, Sufis and Shi'as in his speeches.

For India, the ISI's backing for Saeed continues to be the main concern, but internally now it is the provincial government's ties to the Punjabi Taliban that are taking the spotlight. The Sharifs, particularly Mian Nawaz Sharif, are known to be fervent followers of the Tablighi Jamaat — the all-powerful sect that provides inspiration to jihadi groups — especially those based in Punjab. The small town of Raiwind on Lahore's outskirts houses the world headquarters of the Tablighi Jamaat, as well as, interestingly, the Sharifs' own sprawling estate. It was at this Tablighi centre that the men arrested for carrying out the Ahmedi mosque massacres stayed and, according to reports, police captured a large stash of arms from another Raiwind hideout some days ago.

The other reason for the vocal backlash in Pakistan has been anguish over the profiles of those behind the most brutal terror acts — the world sat up when it emerged that the Times Square wannabe bomber was the son of a retired Air Vice-Marshal, that Headley had a half-brother in Prime Minister Gilani's office, and that in so many attacks terror recruits were drawn from Pakistan's upper middle class and elite. The men arrested for brutally gunning down 40 people including 17 children, mainly families of army officers at Rawalpindi's Parade Lane mosque in December 2009, fit into this growing statistic — while one was the son of a government officer in Islamabad, the other's father was a journalist. They were indoctrinated, say police, not at camps in PoK or Waziristan, but on the Internet, through promotional videos, and even at Dars or Koranic lectures that are so commonly held in drawing-rooms across Pakistan's big cities. Among the suspects in the parade ground attack were a former Foreign Service officer and two women who conducted such Dars, and also allegedly helped with logistics for the attack.

The revulsion over what one editorial refers to as 'Pakistan's creeping coup' by the Taliban could be India's most effective ally as it renews its dialogue with Pakistan while keeping concerns over terror at the forefront. After meeting Mr. Chidambaram last week, Mr. Malik, who is increasingly targeting the Punjab government for its lack of action against extremist groups, said in interviews: "We know that the Taliban's aim is to overrun Pakistan in order to attack India. We also have intelligence that groups behind the Mumbai attack continue to plan to send India and Pakistan to war."

As India waits for Mr. Malik and other members of Pakistan's government to make good on their latest promises on the 26/11 investigation and External Affairs Minister S.M. Krishna heads there for another round of talks, the zero-sum game should be put on hold — as eventually, it is only in Islamabad's realisation that working against the LeT and other anti-India groups is in its own best interests that would change the discourse from its unproductive past. A realisation on both sides that what is diabolical for India cannot possibly do any good for Pakistan, and vice versa.
 

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Indo-Pak and Pak-US - It's time to talk


By Saeed Minhas

ISLAMABAD: With so much internal political mess to cater to, a hectic week is approaching, not only for all the journalists here but also for the diplomatic corps as well. For it is not only Pakistan, but - thanks to the bungled-up American policies - the entire South East Asian region that has become the centre of attention for the Europeans and others alike.

Afghanistan, being the lynchpin in this entire diplomatic progression, continues to occupy the centre-stage, but when you come across a variety of diplomatic gatherings, both in and outside the diplomatic enclave, it's hard to ignore the interest in Iran, China and, needless to mention, the eagerness regarding the Indo-Pak dialogue and the forthcoming visits of the Indian External Affairs Minister SM Krishna on July 15, and of Hillary Clinton - the diplomatic queen of the Obama administration - on July 17.

If Iran's two-day economic meeting with the Indians in Delhi was of interest to many of them, so was President Asif Zardari's visit to China. If the Indian foreign secretaries' and home ministers' parleys in Pakistan kept the diplomats happy and curious, the Indians' access to David Headley also remained an issue to pursue.

Similarly, a change in the ISAF's command (from Stanley McChrystal to David Petraeus) in Afghanistan, and the ensuing scuffle between Afghan President Hamid Karzai and Petraeus over the strategic changes, was of great interest to our diplomatic chameleons, as they were trying to read the Pakistani mindset while openly admitting that American confusion with regard to the war on terror has put everyone in a spin, and an exit strategy is becoming even more elusive.

An assessment of Pakistani media also remained under discussion, as to how they perceived the Americans' (along with their new strategic partners, the Indians) concerns over the Pak-Iran gas pipeline, and over the Pak-China civil nuclear deal. Some diplomats expect that this is going to be one of the bombs that Hillary will be releasing on the Pakistani leadership during her upcoming visit, besides clarifying her position on her statements given in the aftermath of the New York terror plot involving a Pakistani, Faisal Shahzad.

Meanwhile, officials in Pakistan continue to take great interest in the recent uprising in Indian-held Kashmir and the Maoists' rising tide in some northeast Indian states; and of course the subsequent movement of Indian troops in context of these developments. Considering this a routine matter, even the Indian home minister, during a brief interaction with me at a local hotel in Islamabad, brushed aside the Maoist challenge as being a trivial matter, and the Kashmiri uprising as an internal matter. Yet its impact on the parleys between Mr Qureshi and his Indian counterpart Mr Krishna in the coming week cannot be ruled out.

Whether they are both able to side-step from these controversies and keep the momentum of cooperation going, or whether they decide to adopt a hawkish approach to derail the 'consensus agenda', is something to be witnessed very intensely by all, in the coming days. Given the quagmires that both governments in Pakistan and India are caught in, and given the positive approach of the Pakistani establishment, many in the diplomatic circles believe that it's the best time for both Qureshi and Krishna to keep this muted diplomacy on, without playing to the galleries or to emotions.

What further exasperated our diplomatic friends as the weekend approached, were two statements; one made by Prime Minister Gilani regarding the trust deficit, and another made by our un-elected but purported Leader of the Opposition Nawaz Sharif, regarding rampant corruption in the country. "If such messages keep emanating from the country's top leaders, especially the latter, than how on earth can we convince our investors to come to Pakistan," retorted one European diplomat while watching a football match between Uruguay and Germany over the weekend. Another said, "Despite all our internal financial and political problems, we are forced to contribute to the stability of Pakistan by investing in its neglected socio-economic welfare."

Delay in fulfilling the pledges, in giving 'G-plus status' or a 'preferred trade-partner status' to Pakistan is primarily for the simple reason that not only the Americans, but the Europeans alike, are passing through the worst economic times.

Yet, he said, we at the EU have made a choice to keep the threat potentially existing in Pakistan confined to its shores, while we struggle to put our house in order. However, he added, that despite our valiant efforts, there seems to be a rat race between the un-elected Opposition Leader and the elected government to not only halt our efforts, but also scare away the investors.

These diplomats are well aware of the rumour machines here, and though they claim that they don't believe in everything doing the rounds, they have to report all these things back home to let their policy-makers make an informed decision on whether to 'trade, aid or wait'.

Some of those who have now spent between two to four years in this country are well aware of the fact that like other developing democracies of the world, the Opposition in Pakistan also cries hoarse when they see that huge amounts of foreign aid, grants and trade opportunities are passing through Zardari, Gilani and their few trusted buddies. Kickbacks are not a new phenomenon for them either, but what worries them more are rumours regarding a change in government. Many of the diplomats kept asking me throughout the past few weeks why Mr Gilani is becoming the centre of 'MBBS jokes' and why Mr Qureshi is being projected as 'Mr Clean' and the right man for the top job? I wish I could have answered on those issues, other than telling them that "the beauty of our system is that not even the sitting chief executive or chief justice, and sometimes even the COAS, can predict for sure whether he would be able to complete the tenure."

A European ambassador, responded to my one-liner thus, "It shows in retrospect that you are a resilient nation and have learnt the art of surviving under clouds of uncertainty, all along packaging that product with a sizeable component of fear to get the best possible price from all those who gets petrified."
 

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http://planetrussell.posterous.com/afceakgs-global-intelligence-update-7810

excerpt:
John McCreary
July 8, 2010 AFCEA/KGS Global Intelligence Update: 7/8/10
NightWatch

For the Night of 8 July 2010

India-Pakistan: Update. Next Thursday, the Foreign Minister of Pakistan and the Indian Minister of External Affairs will meet in Islamabad to resume their dialogue. A Pakistani spokesman said all issues are on the table, but then immediately removed one, namely the Indian concern about the Chinese plan to build a railroad through the Karakoram Mountains.

He also referred to Pakistan's concern for the human rights of people living in "Indian-occupied" Kashmir. However, the spokesman said Pakistan is approaching the meeting with an open mindset.

Pakistan: Security. Several Chinese engineers working in Baluchistan survived an attempt on their lives when unidentified assailants fired two rockets at a five -star hotel in the provincial town, in a pre-dawn attack on Wednesday. According to reports, the Chinese engineers left the hotel elevator minutes before the attack, which damaged a portion of the hotel building.

The Chinese engineers had arrived in Gwadar recently and were reportedly working on an oil refinery. Official sources believe that they were the targets of the attack. Security officials and paramilitary forces cordoned off the area after the attack and began investigations against unidentified assailants.

Comment: Baluch hostility to foreigners is less interesting than that the Chinese are building an oil refinery in Gwadar, in western Pakistan. That provides the motive for building a railroad link to Xinjiang, China, or maybe a pipeline, if that is feasible.

China is developing lines of communication through Pakistan and Burma to complement oil pipelines in central Asia that will ensure crude supplies to China in the event of a crisis in Northeast or Southeast Asia in which US Naval forces would disrupt the maritime supply route through the Straits of Malacca and Singapore.

Pakistan: Gratitude. The head of Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence, Lieutenant General Ahmed Shuja Pasha, said "foreign powers" were responsible for terrorism in his country, Samaa reported 8 July. During a briefing at a session of the National Security Committee, General Pasha said U.S. counterterrorism policy is being looked into and that changes will be made in accordance with Pakistan's national interest. According to Samaa, the foreign powers mentioned were specified as Western powers.

John McCreary's Comment:: The duplicitous, calculated comments of Pakistani politicians, such as Lieutenant General Pasha, expose the psychology of blame that infects Pakistani leaders. They do not accept responsibility for their own actions and constantly indulge in blaming those - in this case, the US -- who have provided enormous assistance to support elective, democratic government.

The US has persevered in this support despite overwhelming evidence that helping Pakistan is against the best interests of the US, Indian and Afghan governments. Even neutral international observers have concluded that Pakistani government organizations have never stopped supporting the Taliban.

Pakistani strategists are fond of accusing the US of being an inconstant ally of Pakistan against India. In the world-wide fight against terrorist groups, Pakistan is the inconstant ally. Its lack of gratitude is a world class disgrace. Pakistani political and military leaders should have the humility to appreciate they are not very clever in their initiatives to manipulate the US.


Security. Private security firms and Non-Government Organizations (NGOs) working in Pakistan have been found involved in assisting the Pakistani Taliban militants financially and providing them with the human resource. The militants arrested by the law enforcement agencies in different operations disclosed the names of private security firms and NGOs, who actually have been funding the militants and providing them with human resource for activities of terrorism in the country.

After the disclosure by the militants, the Interior Ministry asked the Government of Khyber Pukhtunkhwa to provide a detailed list of those private security firms and NGOs. The Interior Ministry and the Khyber Pukhtunkhwa government have ordered an investigation.
 

Dark Sorrow

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S M Krishna on Pakistan visit from July 14

NEW DELHI: Foreign Minister S M Krishna will visit Pakistan from July 14 to work out the modalities of "restoring trust and confidence" in the relationship, thus paving the way for a "substantive dialogue" on issues of mutual concern.

In a brief statement announcing the three-day visit, the External Affairs Ministry today said it is being undertaken "in pursuance of the mandate given by the Prime Ministers of India and Pakistan, during their meeting at Thimphu in April, 2010, to the Foreign Ministers and Foreign Secretaries of both the countries to work out the modalities of restoring trust and confidence in the relationship, thus paving the way for a substantive dialogue on issues of mutual concern.

"Krishna will visit Pakistan from July 14-16, 2010 for bilateral discussions at the invitation of Shah Mahmood Qureshi, Foreign Minister of Pakistan," it said.

However, both the leaders have already talked about the issues to be raised during the parleys, with Krishna making it clear that he will talk about terrorism emanating from Pakistani soil and Qureshi saying that he will raise Kashmir issue and alleged human rights violations there.

Krishna is expected to explore ways and means to reduce the trust deficit between the two countries that has grown since the 26/11 terror attacks in Mumbai.

"We would like to talk to Pakistan on a number of concerns that we have. Of course, the primary concern would continue to be terror which emanates from Pakistan," Krishna has said.

The minister said that he would continue to talk about terror and seek an update on the trial of those accused of carrying out the deadly attacks in Mumbai in 2008.

Meanwhile, Qureshi has said Pakistan will raise the human rights situation in Jammu and Kashmir with Krishna.

"We have raised our voice about human rights violations there and we will continue to do so. When the Indian Foreign Minister comes here soon, that will be the proper occasion to direct his attention towards the incidents occurring in Srinagar and the (Kashmir) valley," Qureshi has said.

However, Krishna has made it clear that law and order cannot be questioned in the name of rights.

"If there are instances of human rights violations, there are agencies within our own country which have been created to ensure human rights protection. So, it can be looked into, but law and order cannot be questioned in the name of human rights," Krishna has said.
 

Ray

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I convey my good wishes to SM and wish him God Speed!
 

Yusuf

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Waste of time i would say. Nothing is going to come out of it.
 

ejazr

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'I loved Pakistan until I visited Pakistani Occupied Kashmir'

http://www.dailykashmirimages.com/Details.aspx?Id=1620

Dr Shabir Choudhry

Pakistan had to twist the knife to make it relevant again
Death of innocent people, especially young children has created a new situation in Kashmir; and gave Spokesman of Pakistan Foreign Office to express his resentment and show that Pakistan was still relevant in the Kashmir dispute; and still hold some cards up the sleeve. A few weeks before this unrest, an impartial survey confirmed

that 98% of the people of Kashmir did not want to join Pakistan. This was a big slap on the face of those who claimed and continue to claim that people of Kashmir were eager to join Pakistan and were giving sacrifices for this purpose. These claims are made despite the current deteriorating economic and security situation of Pakistan in which many Pakistanis don't want to remain part of the Federation.
This survey was conducted by a prominent British Think Tank - Chatham House, which has its own expertise in matters of South Asia. The survey confirmed what we – nationalist Kashmiris have always claimed that people were not interested in joining Pakistan. We believe that the Kashmir dispute is not religious in nature; and concerns our inherent and unrestricted right of self determination.
Pakistani establishment and their puppets have, hitherto, made themselves relevant in the Kashmir dispute not because of any legal standing, but because of their de-facto control, religious card and Kashmiri collaborators which are available in abundance on both sides of the divide.
Many experts and Kashmir watchers after the survey thought Pakistan was becoming irrelevant in the Kashmir dispute because of this change; and because of Pakistan's serious internal economic and terrorism related problems. Somehow Pakistan had to 'strike back' and make it relevant again; and they have done it in a style.
For this 'gain if some Kashmiris have lost their lives, its price worth paying', said one Kashmiri, on condition of anonymity. He said, 'Pakistani agencies have always outmanoeuvred India over issue of Kashmir. They create a situation with help of their collaborators and Indians not only walk in, but jump in it and get trapped'.
End result in this dirty game is killing of innocent Kashmiris and human rights violations. It serves four purposes.
1. It further alienate the people of Kashmir and their resentment against India grows;
2. It gives India the kind of image Pakistani establishment wants to project; and make India defensive on issue of Kashmir;
3.It makes Pakistan relevant in the Kashmir dispute and helps them to promote them as a 'good boy' and well wishers of people of Kashmir;
4. It keeps people of Pakistani Administered Kashmir and Gilgit Baltistan under check, as message is given that Pakistan, despite its all faults is not as bad as India, as India kills and commits human rights violations.
It is true people are killed and human rights are being committed on the Indian side of LOC; and comparatively less human rights violations take on the Pakistani side of LOC, but no one has time or even care to look at reasons.
People on the Indian side of Jammu and Kashmir, especially Muslims of the Valley have not accepted the Indian rule, and after help from Pakistan have rebelled against India. On the hand people under Pakistani control have accepted their direct and indirect rule; and depending on interpretation and political thinking or lack of it, one might call it Azadi or slavery.
So if people of Pakistani Administered Kashmir and Gilgit Baltistan have surrendered unconditionally and have agreed to call their slavery 'freedom' and azadi, then why would Pakistan kill these subservient people, who go out of their way to please Islamabad. Some of these Kashmiris proudly claim that they are 'fighting Pakistan's war'; and that they are 'unpaid soldiers of Pakistan'. Soldiers they may be, but surely they are not unpaid.
Perhaps these people are clever, as they know what awaits them if they expressed their resentment and challenged rule of Islamabad, because tragedy of East Pakistan is not that old. Furthermore, they know what is happening to those Pakistanis who have asked for their rights and challenged Islamabad – they face bombardment of jet fighters and helicopter gun ships, their houses are destroyed and they are economically crippled.
After the recent uprising and blood of innocent Kashmiris, Pakistan has perhaps made them relevant again in the Kashmir imbroglio; they might have moral upper hand as well, but they have failed to win minds and hearts of the people of Jammu and Kashmir. True, Muslims of the Valley reject Indian rule, but it must not be construed that they want to join Pakistan.
Showkat Ul Islam from Sopor said: 'I loved Pakistan before I visited Pakistani Occupied Kashmir.' He said, 'Of course we have problems on our side, as there is militancy going on for more than 20 years, but despite that we are far ahead of you in every respect. I have visited POK and in many ways you people are still living in Stone Ages.'
Showkat Ul Islam said, 'At one time my love for Pakistan was so strong that I punched my friend, Dr Ashfaq Butt of Srinagar when he said something negative about Pakistan'. His friend said to Showkat Ul Islam, 'You have punched me because you don't know true face of Pakistan, once you have seen true face you will feel sorry for your action'
Shaowkat Ul Islam said, 'During my visit to Pakistani Occupied Kashmir I had plenty of opportunities to see what Pakistan is, and how their agencies were using us. Also I witnessed deprivation of people of POK, especially in Neelam Valley. After my experience in POK, I phoned Dr Ashfaq Butt and apologised for my action'.
He said, 'People who shout India out, do not have love for Pakistan either. We want both India and Pakistan to leave our Kashmir.' He said, 'After what Pakistan has done to Gilgit Baltistan we are no longer in any doubts as to designs of Pakistan.'
Pakistani brothers need to understand that our struggle is not for accession of our State with either India or Pakistan. Our struggle is for unification and independence of the entire State of Jammu and Kashmir. Religion has no role in our struggle. We want to promote peace, tolerance and coexistence of all ethnic minorities. We want to promote peace and stability in South Asia and oppose those forces which preach violence, extremism and hatred.
Both India and Pakistan need to understand this simple fact: you cannot win minds and hearts of people by use of force; and you cannot eliminate violence by use of violence because violence breeds more violence. The Kashmir dispute is political in nature and needs political approach; and people of Jammu and Kashmir are the principal party to this dispute and they could not be kept out of the dialogue process.
Writer is a Spokesman of Kashmir National Party, political analyst and author of many books and booklets. Also he is Director Institute of Kashmir Affairs.
 

Zaki

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hehehe indian media is funny lol

ask any Kashmiri from PoK, he never had any complaints from Pakistan :)
in fact its one of the most peaceful area in Pakistan now, due to no bomb blasts or target killing incidents being taken place in this part of the world

Trust me PoK is far more peaceful than living in Punjab or Sindh. I sometimes think why the hell we are living in Punjab? why not move in Kashmir instead hehehe

The writer's job was to criticize Pakistan so he did - as some indians love to read bollywood-like indian newspaper. Feel free to do so
 
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ejazr

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@Zaki

The author was born in Muzaffarabad in Pakistani Kashmir, and the paper is a local newspaper outlet in Kashmir valley. Notice he says he wants independent from both Pakistan and India. So he is not a pro-Indian activists either.
 

thakur_ritesh

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hehehe indian media is funny lol

ask any Kashmiri from Azad Kashmiri, he never had any complaints from Pakistan :)
in fact its one of the most peaceful area in Pakistan now, due to no bomb blasts or target killing incidents being taken place in this part of the world

Trust me Pakistan Occupied Kashmir is far more peaceful than living in Punjab or Sindh. I sometimes think why the hell we are living in Punjab? why not move in Kashmir instead hehehe

The writer's job was to criticize Pakistan so he did - as some indians love to read bollywood-like indian newspaper. Feel free to do so
about the author: A Spokesman of Kashmir National Party, political analyst and author of many books and booklets. Also he is Director Institute of Kashmir Affairs.

Kashmir National Party: a nationalist kashmiri party which talks about a united kashmir, independent from the clutches of pakistan and india. they regularly take out processions against both pakistan and india on the occupation in kashmir as they would like to put it. has representatives from both PoK and J&K.

a quote where he specifically spells out the ideology of his party from the article.

The survey confirmed what we – nationalist Kashmiris have always claimed that people were not interested in joining Pakistan. We believe that the Kashmir dispute is not religious in nature; and concerns our inherent and unrestricted right of self determination.
sure enough PoK seems more peaceful than baluchistan or nwfp (sorry not sure about the new name of that place is), and karachi, rawalpindi or lahore and the author has some very valid reasons as to why that is happening and while highlighting that he does not forget to mention one possible reason as the genocide that happened in then east pakistan and now bangladesh (though he forgets to mention the gross violation of human rights in baluchistan) something that can get repeated in PoK in case the kashimirs there were to take to streets without any national and international coverage to it.

and he had a valid concern there since recently a complete christian family gets wiped out and no local media in pakistan dare reports it fearing the backlash, imagine who all would take on the mighty isi who practically own and run a state, has the local media in baluchistan not been slowly and steadily wiped out.
 
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ajtr

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anoop_mig25

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Sorry Mr Dr Shabir Choudhry thats not going to happen because the day Kashmir becomes independent Pakistan within one year of timespan would capture it either directly or indirectly . so its better way its now i.e 50-50.i am glad that atleast u accept the fact that peoples from across the border are somehow always gets involve in giving us trouble

@zaki

why would any kashmir from PoK would complain most of them where outsiders settled illegally by of GoP atleast they got land free but indian`s got article 370. donot worry mate once kashmir becames independent or yours(hope both of them never happens) all of yours so-called freedom fighters would run havoc in Kashmir to get their share of pie and turn kashmir into fascist heaven
 

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Even indian kashmiris got to see the true POK when they were not paid for the apple consignment by the POK traders....


No money from PoK, so no apples: Kashmiris


Srinagar: Kashmir's Fruit Growers, who organised massive protests for opening of the Srinagar-Muzuffarabad road for the trade activities, now have stopped sending their apple consignments to Pakistan occupied Kashmir (PoK).

In Oct, 2008, cross LoC trade through Kaman Bridge on the Srinagar-Muzuffarabad road was started amid much fanfare. On the first day, 14 apple laden trucks crossed the bridge.

Three months later, the fruit trade had hit the road block as Valley growers have completely stopped dispatching their apples to Muzuffarabad.

General Manager, DIC Mohammad Ashraf Wani who also is custodian for the cross LoC trade confirmed that no apple truck was sent across the LoC in the latest cross LoC trading.

"On Tuesday, six trucks were dispatched from Kashmir to PoK. But, not a single apple box was in the consignment," he said.

Wani, however, said the trade on barter system, continues through Uri's Kaman Bridge on weekly basis. "So far, 6,000 apple boxes were dispatched by the growers. But, growers seem to have lost interest in the trade through LoC."

Before the start of cross LoC trade growers were curious to dispatch their apples to PoK. Now, they are not.

"We were eagerly waiting for the beginning of cross LoC trade, even dispatched thousands of apple boxes to PoK in the start. But, so far growers have not received a single penny in lieu of the apples," President Fruit Mandi Sopore, Bashir Beig said.

"After three months, we don't know what happened to apples in PoK," he said.

Beig said the growers have stopped sending their products to PoK. "This time, we only dispatch our apples to different mandies of the country as the market is good there," he said.

"The trade is useless unless government starts a permanent communication link between two parts of Kashmir," he said.

The growers who dispatched their apples on the first day of opening of the trade too are losing hope about future of the trade. "Unless growers are allowed to visit to Pok, this cross LoC business is meaningless," said Javid Ahmad, a trader who dispatched around 100 apple boxes on October 20, 2008.

"I don't know what happened to my apples in PoK. Government has to do more to sustain this trade, otherwise in coming months no trade will take place via Kaman bridge. "

There is other reason that compelled growers not to dispatch their apples to PoK as the growers were offered lucrative rates by the Delhi based traders. "Soon after the cross LoC trade started, the rates of apples have gone up," said Beig, adding that this year all the losses got compensated by good rates.

Before the start of trade, the Union Ministry of Commerce has approved a list of 23 items from Kashmir. Pakistan, too, had sent a list of 26 items. The items from the Indian side include fruit (fresh and dry), spices, saffron, carpets, wall hangings, woolens, aromatic and medicinal plants, Cricket bats, black mushrooms, green tea, imli, dhania, rajmah.
 

tarunraju

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hehehe indian media is funny lol

ask any Kashmiri from PoK, he never had any complaints from Pakistan :)
in fact its one of the most peaceful area in Pakistan now, due to no bomb blasts or target killing incidents being taken place in this part of the world

Trust me PoK is far more peaceful than living in Punjab or Sindh. I sometimes think why the hell we are living in Punjab? why not move in Kashmir instead hehehe

The writer's job was to criticize Pakistan so he did - as some indians love to read bollywood-like indian newspaper. Feel free to do so
You wish. Kashmiris are worse off in Pakistan, whichever way you look at it.

If you have an issue with Indian media, let's put it aside. The author of that article is from Pakistan-occupied Kashmir.

2009 World Map of countries by scale of freedom (it's big, so use 100% size on your PDF reader):

http://www.freedomhouse.org/uploads/fiw09/MOF09.pdf

This should be the area of interest:



Appendix:


Indian-administered Kashmir is Freer than Pakistan-administered one. The study shows that Kashmiris under Pakistan have lesser freedom than Pakistanis and Indian Kashmiris. Indian Kashmir also has a stronger economy, access to a country much larger, and much more pluralistic.
 
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ajtr

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The past as present

This is with reference to "The past as present" by Dr Maleeha Lodhi (July 13). The writer has ably put together all happenings of the recent past in the Indian-held Kashmir. With due respect I tend to disagree with her viewpoint and to me the ongoing negotiation and confidence building measures look like the key to reach some understanding with India. The problem before us is to determine if India will ever agree to surrender Kashmir to Pakistan or accept an independent Kashmir. Can Pakistan decide this issue by using military power? Is an independent Kashmir an acceptable and viable option from the regional and global perspectives?

We need to be realistic and understand that the Kashmir issue and its handling in the past have been disastrous and what we face today is the fallout of the wrong policy options we chose to exercise. Pakistan has relied more on military means through direct and indirect strategic approaches and both have miserably failed. India's survival as a secular and multicultural state is dependent upon the solution of the Kashmir issue as per her perception. In the near future there is no possibility of Kashmir becoming a part of Pakistan or an independent state. The world has changed and now religious sentiments have no place in the statecraft and it will not be viable to demand a territory on these basis. We need to sit with India and in all seriousness resolve this issue amicably. The best option is a little reorientation in our boundaries as was perceivable in Musharraf's Kashmir policy. However, if the people of the Indian-held Kashmir have some political reservations, let's consider this an internal issue which should be solved amongst the affected parties. Pakistan has absolutely no right to interfere in the internal matters of India either through military or any other means.

Brig (r) Asif Alvi

Karachi
 

ajtr

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No alternative to peace with India


Raza Rumi

Once again, the fragile peace process between India and Pakistan has commenced. It is too early to say whether it will lead to an amicable settlement of seemingly intractable issues. What is clear is that the peoples of the two countries want peace, security and progress. The elites, which agreed on the messy Partition and raised nation-states and huge militaries, have surely flourished at the expense of people. A causal look at India's poverty and Pakistan's social indicators proves this point.

As a confidence building measure, a group of Pakistani journalists visited Delhi, Mumbai and Bangalore to meet their counterparts, think tanks and selected top-level officials. This was a timely and fruitful visit and reminded us that there is a formidable peace constituency in India. After the Indian home minister it is the turn of the Indian foreign minister to visit Islamabad from today for a three-day tour. Regardless of the outcome, sensible neighbours must continue to talk.

Evidently, the Mumbai terror attacks were the greatest stumbling block in resuming dialogue. Discussions at Sharm el Sheikh were a major breakthrough. Dr Manmohan Singh overcame tough public opinion after the joint declaration. This year's dialogue at the Saarc Summit in Bhutan catalysed the peace process. After the 18th amendment to the Pakistani Constitution, the Indian side has noted the power shift within Pakistan as it strives to reclaim the democratic path.

Pakistani media persons, including me, could not help notice the centrality of the Mumbai attacks factor, which continues to inform public opinion in India. A majority of Indians hold Pakistan fully responsible for the event. The caveat here is that they often forget that Pakistan is also a victim of terrorism. But there is growing awareness in India about the internal challenges within Pakistan. This is why the Indian leadership has delinked dialogue from terrorism.

To facilitate the peace process, Pakistan should demonstrate its resolve to pursue proper investigation into the alleged Mumbai conspiracy hatchers. The Indian home minister left Pakistan in June somewhat assured of the efforts being made here. Our foreign minister should also reassure his Indian counterpart.

It is clear that regional stability is a foremost priority for India given its focus on achieving a 10 per cent growth rate. Pakistan should benefit from this dynamic by expanding trade with India. Mutual trade will be a win-win situation and give a much-needed boost to our economy.

Public opinion in Pakistan has to be strengthened against militancy and extremism. The out-of-control militant groups are a nightmare for Pakistan and cast a dark shadow over its future. Furthermore, media and telecommunication restrictions need to be lifted on both sides. It is fashionable to deride the vigil brigade for being unrealistic but there is no alternative to people-to-people contacts. Indians, thanks to the global media, view Pakistan as a country full of 'terrorists'. We must change this and not let the hawks on the Indian side to misrepresent us.
 

ajtr

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Spat erupts at Indo-Pak peace talks briefing


The foreign ministers' meetings between India and Pakistan all but collapsed in a welter of accusations on Thursday. Pakistan steadfastly refused to engage in any substantial manner with the critical areas of Mumbai attacks, cross-border terrorism and infiltration, choosing to argue that Islamabad could not speed "judicial" processes.

The joint press conference, which started around 9pm, instead of the scheduled 2.15 pm, saw foreign minister S M Krishna and his Pakistani counterpart Shah Mahmood Qureshi take on each other in what turned out to be a bruising spat beamed live.

The divergence came out starkly on Balochistan and infiltration in Jammu and Kashmir as the interaction with the media almost degenerated into a joust.

Asked about India's "role" in Balochistan, Krishna responded, "Forget about credible evidence, we have not received a shred of evidence".

On the issue of anti-India jihad speeches of Lashkar-e-Taiba chief Hafiz Saeed, Qureshi actually offered home secretary G K Pillai's comments on Lashkar man David Headley's implication of ISI as a "counter-point". The equation of the mild-mannered Pillai as an equivalent to the Lashkar amir left the Indian delegation gaping.


Qureshi further said Pillai's statement had come up in discussions and "both of us felt it was unwarranted".

Krishna did not respond to this sally. But Qureshi's reference to Pillai as a Hafiz Saeed "clone" more or less symbolized the near futility of the engagement that was to take forward home minister P Chidambaram's discussions just last month.
 

Yusuf

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Spat erupts at Indo-Pak peace talks briefing

ISLAMABAD: The foreign ministers' meetings between India and Pakistan all but collapsed in a welter of accusations on Thursday. Pakistan steadfastly refused to engage in any substantial manner with the critical areas of Mumbai attacks, cross-border terrorism and infiltration, choosing to argue that Islamabad could not speed "judicial" processes.

The joint press conference, which started around 9pm, instead of the scheduled 2.15 pm, saw foreign minister S M Krishna and his Pakistani counterpart Shah Mahmood Qureshi take on each other in what turned out to be a bruising spat beamed live.

The divergence came out starkly on Balochistan and infiltration in Jammu and Kashmir as the interaction with the media almost degenerated into a joust.

Asked about India's "role" in Balochistan, Krishna responded, "Forget about credible evidence, we have not received a shred of evidence".

On the issue of anti-India jihad speeches of Lashkar-e-Taiba chief Hafiz Saeed, Qureshi actually offered home secretary G K Pillai's comments on Lashkar man David Headley's implication of ISI as a "counter-point". The equation of the mild-mannered Pillai as an equivalent to the Lashkar amir left the Indian delegation gaping.

Qureshi further said Pillai's statement had come up in discussions and "both of us felt it was unwarranted".

Krishna did not respond to this sally. But Qureshi's reference to Pillai as a Hafiz Saeed "clone" more or less symbolized the near futility of the engagement that was to take forward home minister P Chidambaram's discussions just last month.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...-peace-talks-briefing/articleshow/6174188.cms

As i had said earlier, my prophecy has come true. Pakistan is not sincere in its fight on terror and that is a universal truth. They know it that Saeed is a terrorist. If they want to walk a step towards India, they can well let go of their response based on petty technicalities and hand over that scum to India to "build confidence". But when they can hoodwink their benefactor no end, it would be a miracle to expect them to do anything for India.
India just has to shut all doors to talks as its a waste of time. Till such time as we see actual credible movement on the ground with regards to terror against India. So much for "Aman ki Asha".
 

hit&run

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There is no point talking to Pakistan as you can not create a balance due to following Pakistani extremes.
1. Respect:
They do not respect any thing about you. They still abuse Hindus in schools, colleges, soap operas, news channels, TV serials, Stage dramas, paper media openly.
2. Leverage:
They do not think that India can do anything but complaint as usual since they have nukes and can do whatever they want.
3. Benefits:
They do not think peace with India will yield anything cause their only uniting glue is hate for India.
4. Constrains:
They can not afford animosity with there own fanatic mullahs (they just banned bolly movie in fear of backlash).
5. Apprehensions:
India has already lost the plot by not making them apprehensive (like our PM was apprehensive using ''terrorism'' word while talking to Obama) when they talk about Kashmir. So they can bash you on all International forum for there illegal demands and you will readily accept to discuss it further.
 
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