India-Pakistan LoC/IB Skirmishes in the Aftermath of August 5 2019

[Waanar]

Can someone please translate that message?

Just the same thing here, but with some interesting details.
5 Para commandoes martyred. 5 terrorists have been killed here whose bodies we have, and 3 have their bodies on the other side of the LOC.
Surveillance drone shows many Porkis killed after India used radar to detect an artillery position of Porki military and blew it.
There's also a drone (unclear if the same one) has crashed on the other side.

 

[MIDKNIGHT FENERIR-00]

No not airstrikes,too escalatory right now.Bring up the excaliburs on m777.Shoot 50 of them,decimate the forward command centres in POK,kill dozens of their officers in a sudden violent fire assault with excalibur.

That won’t be possible. The Porkis would spot sudden Movement by the Indian Army. They will start to bring up there own forces and artillery to counter our forces. The Porkis already know Indians are angry from news about our soldiers getting martyred and they know we will take revenge against them. They will be prepared. The Question is which sector will we take revenge in.

 

[Lancer]

No not airstrikes,too escalatory right now.Bring up the excaliburs on m777.Shoot 50 of them,decimate the forward command centres in POK,kill dozens of their officers in a sudden violent fire assault with excalibur.

Use a mixture of heavy arti gun assault + some 2002 style LoC aerial bombardment. The reaction needs to be disproportionate and psychotic.

The involvement of IAF can also serve as a bait, if the PAF sits back - Paki madarchodhs get gangbanged, if the PAF jumps in, time to settle scores from last February.

 

[AnantS]

Lets hope if here any injured, they improve their health soon

 

[Knowitall]

The below post is post is by divine hearatic from sf forum. I recommend one reads his posts on balakot too extremely informative he seems to have good insider knowledge too.


Nope. Command problem. The enemy was identified and classified by live drone footage. It was easily possible to call in a drone strike, an airstrike, or a precision air burst artillery strike, or even bracket the area with 120mm mortar. Nearly all would have done the trick.

Instead command in it's infinite wisdom eschews such instruments of force because you know z hearts and minds. Apparently the use of such systems will turn the population hostile. Yes you read that right. Go figure.

Actually the problem begins way before. We have amongst the worst senior officers corps in the world, and by a large margin, the consequence of having a selection and training regimen designed to shortlist and build up junior officers. We have great Lts, Captains, Majors. Even colonels. But at Brigadier and above, baring a hand full, we fail to produce effective commanders.

Most of these commanders lack the flexibility, innovativeness and decisiveness that a large formation commander requires to be successful. So much so that when someone is actually decent on the job he inevitably becomes famous. General Sunderji for example. Gen. Vipin Rawat is another. Nothing extraordinary about them. Just.decent commanders who understands what large formation command means.
Nobody teaches the rest that. Staff college, NDC, higher command colleges are still based on learning the bureaucracy..by the book. Our senior commanders are best compared to the British Army of WW2. The British managed to change, learning from their experiences facing the vastly superior German office corps. Now the Indian army is more british than the British themselves. Incompetent at nearly everything except bureaucracy.

This is also why you find those weird articles by ex officers like Praveen Sahwney and Lt. gen . HS Panag. He wouldn't have made brigadier in a NaTO standard army or even the Russian army. The idea of an Indian initiative is anathema to them, they can't imagine it because they were never competent enough to think independently.

What do you think about this guys.

 

[Srinivas_K]

When it comes to leadership Indian army is is second to none. Wait for the actual details are out from army sources. Do not depend on unofficial sources or open source intel.

The below post is post is by divine hearatic from sf forum. I recommend one reads his posts on balakot too extremely informative he seems to have good insider knowledge too.


Nope. Command problem. The enemy was identified and classified by live drone footage. It was easily possible to call in a drone strike, an airstrike, or a precision air burst artillery strike, or even bracket the area with 120mm mortar. Nearly all would have done the trick.

Instead command in it's infinite wisdom eschews such instruments of force because you know z hearts and minds. Apparently the use of such systems will turn the population hostile. Yes you read that right. Go figure.

Actually the problem begins way before. We have amongst the worst senior officers corps in the world, and by a large margin, the consequence of having a selection and training regimen designed to shortlist and build up junior officers. We have great Lts, Captains, Majors. Even colonels. But at Brigadier and above, baring a hand full, we fail to produce effective commanders.

Most of these commanders lack the flexibility, innovativeness and decisiveness that a large formation commander requires to be successful. So much so that when someone is actually decent on the job he inevitably becomes famous. General Sunderji for example. Gen. Vipin Rawat is another. Nothing extraordinary about them. Just.decent commanders who understands what large formation command means.
Nobody teaches the rest that. Staff college, NDC, higher command colleges are still based on learning the bureaucracy..by the book. Our senior commanders are best compared to the British Army of WW2. The British managed to change, learning from their experiences facing the vastly superior German office corps. Now the Indian army is more british than the British themselves. Incompetent at nearly everything except bureaucracy.

This is also why you find those weird articles by ex officers like Praveen Sahwney and Lt. gen . HS Panag. He wouldn't have made brigadier in a NaTO standard army or even the Russian army. The idea of an Indian initiative is anathema to them, they can't imagine it because they were never competent enough to think independently.

What do you think about this guys.

 

[MIDKNIGHT FENERIR-00]

The below post is post is by divine hearatic from sf forum. I recommend one reads his posts on balakot too extremely informative he seems to have good insider knowledge too.


Nope. Command problem. The enemy was identified and classified by live drone footage. It was easily possible to call in a drone strike, an airstrike, or a precision air burst artillery strike, or even bracket the area with 120mm mortar. Nearly all would have done the trick.

Instead command in it's infinite wisdom eschews such instruments of force because you know z hearts and minds. Apparently the use of such systems will turn the population hostile. Yes you read that right. Go figure.

Actually the problem begins way before. We have amongst the worst senior officers corps in the world, and by a large margin, the consequence of having a selection and training regimen designed to shortlist and build up junior officers. We have great Lts, Captains, Majors. Even colonels. But at Brigadier and above, baring a hand full, we fail to produce effective commanders.

Most of these commanders lack the flexibility, innovativeness and decisiveness that a large formation commander requires to be successful. So much so that when someone is actually decent on the job he inevitably becomes famous. General Sunderji for example. Gen. Vipin Rawat is another. Nothing extraordinary about them. Just.decent commanders who understands what large formation command means.
Nobody teaches the rest that. Staff college, NDC, higher command colleges are still based on learning the bureaucracy..by the book. Our senior commanders are best compared to the British Army of WW2. The British managed to change, learning from their experiences facing the vastly superior German office corps. Now the Indian army is more british than the British themselves. Incompetent at nearly everything except bureaucracy.

This is also why you find those weird articles by ex officers like Praveen Sahwney and Lt. gen . HS Panag. He wouldn't have made brigadier in a NaTO standard army or even the Russian army. The idea of an Indian initiative is anathema to them, they can't imagine it because they were never competent enough to think independently.

What do you think about this guys.

I Agree with Majority of things that are said here. We are more British than the British Themselves in the Military Area Anyway. We still carry some useless British Era Things that needs to ditched or Streamlined. British aren’t the world powers that they were hundred years ago. We need to model ourself to current world powers not the ones from past. US and Russia been prime examples to adopt models from but I am not saying we need to completely copy everything from them but we need to study them and adapt them to our local environment. Completely agree on Praveen Swahney, Ajay Shukla and HS Panag.

 

[rocky0290]

The below post is post is by divine hearatic from sf forum. I recommend one reads his posts on balakot too extremely informative he seems to have good insider knowledge too.


Nope. Command problem. The enemy was identified and classified by live drone footage. It was easily possible to call in a drone strike, an airstrike, or a precision air burst artillery strike, or even bracket the area with 120mm mortar. Nearly all would have done the trick.

Instead command in it's infinite wisdom eschews such instruments of force because you know z hearts and minds. Apparently the use of such systems will turn the population hostile. Yes you read that right. Go figure.

Actually the problem begins way before. We have amongst the worst senior officers corps in the world, and by a large margin, the consequence of having a selection and training regimen designed to shortlist and build up junior officers. We have great Lts, Captains, Majors. Even colonels. But at Brigadier and above, baring a hand full, we fail to produce effective commanders.

Most of these commanders lack the flexibility, innovativeness and decisiveness that a large formation commander requires to be successful. So much so that when someone is actually decent on the job he inevitably becomes famous. General Sunderji for example. Gen. Vipin Rawat is another. Nothing extraordinary about them. Just.decent commanders who understands what large formation command means.
Nobody teaches the rest that. Staff college, NDC, higher command colleges are still based on learning the bureaucracy..by the book. Our senior commanders are best compared to the British Army of WW2. The British managed to change, learning from their experiences facing the vastly superior German office corps. Now the Indian army is more british than the British themselves. Incompetent at nearly everything except bureaucracy.

This is also why you find those weird articles by ex officers like Praveen Sahwney and Lt. gen . HS Panag. He wouldn't have made brigadier in a NaTO standard army or even the Russian army. The idea of an Indian initiative is anathema to them, they can't imagine it because they were never competent enough to think independently.

What do you think about this guys.

Spot on.Can you post a link to his balakot insights.Thanks.

 

[Knowitall]

For anyone doubting our sf. This post is also by the same user but it actually pretty much clears the debate we were having in special forces thread about using heavy firepower and why US special forces do so.

I'd advise everyone to not read too much into this once instance. It's sadly the law of averages playing itself out. When you send out guys with equal firepower to that of the enemy day in and day out, and thus perpetuate a battle of equals, one of the days the enemy is going to get lucky.

If you see the video of the US Medal of honor recipient, late John A Chapman's team engagement, you'll find that even US SFs when faced with equally or better armed enemies tend to suffer quite high casualties. This is universal this is why you never fight the enemy on an equal ground. Do whatever must.you need to do to ensure there is never an equal battle. That's what US strives for every single enagagement. Overwhelming response, never proportionate response.

The very fact that despite years of fighting the enemy on roughly equal terms the kids ratios are 4:1 in our favour speaks to the capabilities of our SFs. But you cannot expect to under equip them, under support them, and then expect miracles from them Everytime. Law of averages will move everything towards the mean in time.

 

[Knowitall]

Spot on.Can you post a link to his balakot insights.Thanks.

He and falcon are the two users whose postings are worth reading both their answers are down to earth and very informative.

Worth a read.

Here you go all his answers
http://www.**************.org/forums/search/32151/
Don't know man can't copy the link here it's not working.

It will be better if you go to the forum and search up his name.

 

[AMCA]

Keran operation: Special forces got into a hand to hand battle on the Line of Control
The elite soldiers, who had been air dropped near the LoC after information on the infiltrators was received, were found barely six feet away from the five terrorists that they eliminated in the intense battle when the search party found them, wit...
By Manu Pubby, ET Bureau | Apr 06, 2020, 11.41 AM IST

AP
In this Aug.14, 2018 file photo, a soldier stands guard during a search operation in Srinagar. (Representative image)
NEW DELHI: In perhaps the most intense firefight on the Line of Control (LoC) this year, five soldiers of the elite 4 Parachute unit engaged infiltrators at point blank range amidst heavy snow, neutralising the entire batch before succumbing to injuries in the hand to hand battle.

The elite soldiers, who had been air dropped near the LoC after information on the infiltrators was received, were found barely six feet away from the five terrorists that they eliminated in the intense battle when the search party found them, with sources saying that battleground bore the signs of a close quarters battle.
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Two soldiers who were airlifted to a nearby military hospital succumbed to injuries while three died at the battle zone.

Sources said that the operation commenced after an Unmanned Aerial Vehicle picked up images of an infiltration attempt in the Keran sector. The special forces were moved to intercept them as heavy snow had restricted movements on the regular army unit located in the area.
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Two squads of the elite unit were deployed to locate and take down the infiltrators but the operation was carried out under heavy snow that hampered visibility. Source said that the squad led by Subedar Sanjeev Kumar spotted the footsteps on the terrorists in the snow and followed the trail.

At one point, the hardened snow under their feet gave way and three members of the squad stumbled into a nallah and right on top of the terrorists who were hiding there. In the ensuing battle at point blank range, where the terrorists had an advantage as they had been waiting, the squad managed to put up a fight.
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Seeing their comrades under heavy fire, the two soldiers who had managed to evade the collapsing snow also rushed into the battle zone, together managing to take down the entire batch of five infiltrating terrorists.

“The soldiers and the terrorist were found barely a few feet away when the other squad reached the position. The para soldiers had put up a strong fight even after stumbling down and the squad members rushed in to help,” sources told ET.
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Other members of the squad who paid the ultimate sacrifice are Havildar Davendra Singh and Paratroopers Bal Krishan, Amit Kumar and Chhatrapal Singh.

 

[Gaurav Rai]

In chutiyo ke side corona itni buri tareh se fail raha hai par fir bhi in madarchodo ko jihaad karna hai.

 

[Underground Soldier]

4 PARA SF. My Favorite. I Just hope they will extract Revenge from Pigs. And who's better than them to extract the revenge.

 

[ezsasa]

Maybe using SANT or Helina or modified ATGM(ground launched) is the one way to minimise casualties in areas like shamshabari range.

No point in sending troops into ambushes which are not in urban areas.

 

[IndiaRising]

Maybe using SANT or Helina or modified ATGM(ground launched) is the one way to minimise casualties in areas like shamshabari range.

No point in sending troops into ambushes which are not in urban areas.

this is an operation where it’s better to wait for pigs to starve to death. They were already cornered. No need to rush in and risk life of troops

 

[ezsasa]

More details on the encounter.....
"an overhanging mass of hardened snow at the edge of a mountain precipice. It broke under their weight and they fell into a nallah, a frozen mountain stream, right into where the terrorists were hiding. This led to a close quarter fight in the most literal sense."

=======
In a frantic, terrifyingly close quarter fight, 5 Pakistani terrorist infiltrators were killed in the Jumgund area of north Kashmir’s Kupwara sector on Sunday, the biggest incursion attempt since the snows have begun to melt. The encounter has also become one of the most costly for the Indian Special Forces, with 5 men of the elite 4 Para (SF) killed in action.

The four men have been identified as Subedar Sanjeev Kumar and Paratrooper Bal Krishan from Himachal Pradesh, Havildar Davendra Singh and Paratrooper Amit Kumar from Uttarakhand, and Paratrooper Chhatrapal Singh from Rajasthan.

The terrorists had infiltrated across the Line of Control last week. Movement had been noticed near fence on Wednesday from drone imagery. On Saturday, two squads of the 4 Para (Special Forces) were deployed for a forward staging to the nearest battalion headquarters, and from there to Rangdoori, Guguldara and Teen Behak areas of Jumgund. They needed to chopper it in as the battalion remains cut off by winter snow.

Intermittent exchanges of fire continued from 2 locations, and the from just one location. Tracking movements across two days, it became clear that the terrorists had been cornered into a part of Kupwara’s dense Zurhama forest, not far from the Jumgund village. Tracking footsteps in the snow, one of the 4 Para squads in the snow tragically realised too late that they were on a cornice — an overhanging mass of hardened snow at the edge of a mountain precipice. It broke under their weight and they fell into a nallah, a frozen mountain stream, right into where the terrorists were hiding. This led to a close quarter fight in the most literal sense.

In the words of an officer familiar with details, “As luck would have it, where they fell, the militants were sitting right there. This led to a firefight at virtually point blank range. I have to give it to the training standards of the SF guys. Inspite of the fall, all five terrorists were killed. The complete squad was lost.”

Two soldiers succumbed to their injuries on Sunday evening after being airlifted to Srinagar’s Army hospital. The remains of the other 3 commandos and the terrorists were found within just three meters of each other.

The 4 Para (Special Forces) is the Army unit that undertook the 2016 surgical strikes in Pakistan-occupied Kashmir in which 38 terrorists were killed.

https://www.livefistdefence.com/202...ecial-forces-men-die-fighting-terrorists.html

 

[fire starter]

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[fire starter]

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[The Ultranationalist]

Hit porki position with thermobaric bombs.

 

[MIDKNIGHT FENERIR-00]

He and falcon are the two users whose postings are worth reading both their answers are down to earth and very informative.

Worth a read.

Here you go all his answers
http://www.**************.org/forums/search/32151/
Don't know man can't copy the link here it's not working.

It will be better if you go to the forum and search up his name.

The Link didn’t work properly. Can you post it again Please