India-China 2020 Border Dispute - Military and Strategic Discussion

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WARREN SS

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from the article.


Does gettleman mean that, if not for nationalist govt land could have been grabbed easily and no one would have been wiser. freudian slip.
The American Policy "Yankees the Mighty Saviors"
They want Show US Public How India Need Mighty US War machine help

I Bet Hardly 80 % Of the Public Knows India has Hydrogen bomb
 
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doreamon

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The possible scenario's of Rafale's Vs J 20'S in BVRAAM's Secnario's

The Meteor uses a seeker of the same family as the MICA and ASTER missiles and is a known and proven technology. Also no aircraft is gonna fly straight into a missile while hoping it can jam it successfully - we will gonna see F-pole engagements which the ramjet will create a no-escape zone way larger than the Chinese PL-12 and PL-15 capacities. As for Meteor vs PL-12, that's a no-brainer, the PL-12 is roughly lower to an AIM-120B. The PL-15, on the other hand, features an AESA seeker and a dual-pulse rocket motor, sufficient to scare the USAF into the LREW program.

And? It's still a slotted array or pre-PESA radar. Its ECCM advantage is that it has a two-way data-link that can keep it guided by the Rafael. We're uncertain, basically, as to what the exact capabilities of the PL-15 are. The comparable Russian system, the K-77M, has a stated 197 km aerodynamic range, but is roughly the same meters to the PL-15. The minimum expected aerodynamic range of the PL-15 would be 200 km, likewise, but the extended length could result in significantly increased ranges; the MICA missile, for instance, is extremely long range missile's, but sports a 33% longer range (km vs 60km implied aerodynamic range) because of only a 7 kg difference (PL-10E has a listed 105 kg weight, the MICA has a 112 kg weight) and a 5G max maneuverability difference (55G vs 50G).

A further factor is that the standard NEZ of an AAM is about 1/3rd the aerodynamic range. But since the PL-15 is a dual pulse rocket motor, it can fire off its rocket motor in stages and further extend its NEZ over a conventional AAM. At 200 km range with 50% aerodynamic range, you get 100 km. At 250 km range with 50% aerodynamic range, you get 125 km. At 300 km range with the standard 33% aerodynamic range, you get 100 km. The difference between standard AAMs, dual pulse AAMs, and ramjets is that with standard AAMs you get one shot, with dual pulse AAMs you get two shots, and ramjets can continuously vary their thrust as long as they're within ramjet speed.

The main defenses of the Rafale comes out, first, to the Rafale having a modern IRST, being IOC-ed in 2009, with stated maximum detection / tracking at 100 km. This means that the J-20 can't approach the Rafale at high subsonic and has to do an F-35-style low-speed approach. Second, the Rafale is the only Western aircraft known to be capable of 11G emergency agility, which reduces the effective range of the PL-15.

When it comes to J-20 vs Rafale, the pure offensive competition is very close; the PL-15 likely matche's the Meteor in pure aerodynamic range, likely has almost similar effective range vs 9G based purely on its greater range, but is going to suffer a large range reduction vs a 11G fighter. Defensively, given that the Meteor isn't going to get an AESA seeker until 2022 at the earliest, and that the J-20 is at least a -30 dBsm VLO fighter, that the AESA on the J-20 is jamming capable, the Rafale is going to have a capability to easily detech the J-20.

Late to say, but still.

View attachment 52676
Only problem is they are going to mass produce it and ll have 200 j20 with in 5/6 years . If we r planning to get AMCA by 2035 thats nt feasible . S400 ll save the day in the mean time .
 

ARVION

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Only problem is they are going to mass produce it and ll have 200 j20 with in 5/6 years . If we r planning to get AMCA by 2035 thats nt feasible . S400 ll save the day in the mean time .
The problem with the J 20's is that it can't go on a low speed to come near the rafale's due to it current engine is incapable and the air intake's are ruined by the so called DSI's. So even with a new engine they have to redesign the whole aircraft from the engine exhaust the air intake's. So the J 20's even produced in large numbers are incapable of going against the rafale's, due to some silly mistakes in the design's.
 

Tanmay

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NItin Gokhale explaining how the border road infrastructure has changed over the past few years and why this is the reason for chinese aggression
Many thanks for this video

I traced those roads back and their history and finally some connection can be made for Sakteng Wildlife Sanctuary made by China. I dont think this connection has been explored by any media.

Nitin Gokhale talks about 2 roads to Tawang

1) BCT road aka Balipara-Charduar-Tawang road
2) OKSRT Road aka Orang-Kalaktang-Shergaon-Rupa-Tenga road (new road)

Hathunga La ridge is the last indian position after the defeat at Namka Chu- Thagla Ridge

GREEN ROAD is BCT Road
ORANGE ROAD is OKSRT road

01.PNG


So after Tawang fell, we fell back to Sela Pass (a good defendable position)

To get to Bomdilla, the Chinese had to cross the usual Sela Pass or go through more difficult Poshing La Pass


02.PNG



Bomdila was to be defended along with Mandala Pass

03.PNG




We are still improving the connectivity there to Mandala Pass

Following a detailed presentation made by DC A K Singh on the Balipara-Charduar-Tawang (BCT) Road, Orang-Kalaktang-Shergaon-Rupa-Tenga (OKSRT), Trans Arunachal Highway (TAH), Munna-Chander-Thungri, Dirang-Mandala-Debrabu-Naga GG and Shergaon-Morshing-Mandalaphudung roads in the district, Rijiju observed the pre-requisite condition for development of any area depends on its road connectivity.


Read more at:
https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...ofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst
Look at the Pink Roads
01.PNG


So where does Sakteng Wildlife Sanctuary come in this? I believe India is still strengthening its position in Tawnang and Mandala via Bhutan

A new road was contructed from Mandala to Bhutan border (BROWN ROAD). But it stops at the boundary with no road on Bhutanese side.

From Trashigang (Bhutan) another new (RED ROAD) road is being contructed to Sakteng. Its currently ends at a school
https://goo.gl/maps/cvysXbnhMzJdJJtq7


02.PNG


2014 : No road

04.PNG

2018 : Hills have been cut and a road visible
05.PNG


I believe this road from Trashigang(Bhutan) will finally meet Mandala Pass(India) and Tawang. The road passed through Sakteng Sanctuary.

China is probably threatening Bhutan to stop this road by making it disputed region. (Probably contructed by BRO under Project DANTAK)

Also Trashigang is well connected to Bhutan and India. So probably Bhutan and India have understood that Chinese may want to annex Bhutan or use Bhutan to bypass Indian defences in Tawang. Hence common defences spanning from Mandala Ridge extending to deep into Bhutan.


The Yonphula Airport was also contructed by Indian army. It will act as an alternative to the lone Paro airport.

Our chopper crashed there last year
https://scroll.in/latest/938723/two...-helicopter-crashes-in-eastern-bhutan-reports.

This seems to be the intention of China about Sakteng. Multiple roads to Tawang and Mandala and improving Indian response time and defences.
 

Kalki2020

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Do you know what it meas by "creating facts on ground"???
Sorry ..... If we remain submissive over our sovereignty anyone can challenge & alter borders by any means as you mentioned, if not, such drill of trying to alter ground realities won't stand longer. What exactly happened in Nakula this time......
I haven't heard of anything from Indian officials mentioning Aksai Chin even in this heightened situation... What will chinese or others make of it?

Sorry I don't buy the argument of perceptional border ... If indeed india considered it's border within chinese control India would have got it registered in any of negotiation, look at China they are claiming whole Galwan, perhaps now Sikkim border will also be subjected to similar claims. Indias meekness on diplomatic front & readily acknowledging the need for de escalation & etc causing more trouble.
China despite being aggressor did it best to do dillydallying for more than one month to come to table for discussion, they were not ready to give india any room initially until 15th & 16th June, few heads were smashed same Chinese general came running for de escalation.
 

Bhadra

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Professional saab, any idea what's happening in Depsang ? Have they taken over grey area like in Pangong Tso ? or is the build up on their side ?
I am not sitting in Army HQ and have not met Gen Joshi and Gen Harinder Singh recently. Nor I have any deep sources in the Army like Shula and others. and why I am professional I myself do not know. Some one put that label there. If you so wish you can ask moderator to remove that.

What is grey area ?
Is the LAC defined there ??

As per reports there is no opposing eyeball to eyeball deployment there.. so there is no disengagement... Deescalation or disengagement will occur as par agreed terms.

First find out where are Raki Nala and Jeewan Nala. PP 1 to PP13 then come back.
 
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There was worry over trump and re-elections any agreement may reduce a lot of the speculation
 

nick_indian

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I am not sitting in Army HQ and have not met Gen Joshi and Gen Harinder Singh recently. Nor I have any deep sources in the Army like Shula and others. and why I am professional I myself do not know. Some one put that label there. If you so wish you can ask moderator to remove that.

What is grey area ?
Is the LAC defined there ??

As per reports there is no opposing eyeball to eyeball deployment there.. so there is no disengagement... Deescalation or disengagement will occur as par agreed terms.

First find out where are Raki Nala and Jeewan Nala. PP 1 to PP13 then come back.
Oh. I though you were ex army because of your title and I have read your posts and you seem quite knowledgeable about things. Certainly more than the average member here like me.

I wonder about the tone of your post though and why would I want the moderator to remove your title. I don't think I implied that in any way with my post.

Anyway, I am off to get more knowledge about Raki Nala and Jeewan Nala as you "suggested". Thanks for that.
 

mokoman

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Beginning of the next cold war .

Bad news: we may lose Chabahar port , Iran will start barking about Kashmir more loudly

Good news: no chance of US-China relations ever normalizing . We can expect more support from US and allies.
 

Bhadra

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One unintended but good consequence of this event has been the de-hyphenation of India and Pak. Now people are talking about India-China rather than India-Pak. Creates more respect for us in the world.

I hope Modi keeps it this way now. Competing with a bigger and stronger country will also motivate us to do better rather than relax and laze around by comparing ourselves with a failed state like Pakistan.
Agreed. But it is is not de -hyphenation but Indian Tiger turning its gaze towards China as possible main threat. It is a change in threat perception and validation of two and a half front theory of Indian Defense forces. It is a firm recognition and acceptance of collusive threat India faces from China and Pakistan. Therefore both are firmly hyphenated. Now the question of possible contingencies are two -

1. China main threat (Front) and Pakistan secondary threat (front) in collusion.
2. Pakistan as the main threat (Front) and China the secondary threat (front) in collusion.

The recent events have put China as the main threat and Pakistan colluding with it. It is also signals a change in Chinese strategy towards India in its willingness to challenge India directly rather than through Pakistan which it was doing so far. Consequently the Chinese front becomes the primary front.

However. Indian Security managers have to be alive to the stated and declared political intention to merge POK and GB with Union of India as our rightful territories. Chines might be playing a game of distracting away the Indian Defense Forces and sucking significant forces towards LAC from being poised to achieve those political goals and saving its heavy invested BRI and CPEC.

India will have to re balance itself at strategic level to deal with this strategic fluidity and dynamics that China has deliberately brought in.

China keeping two to three divisions in Ladakh to save CPEC is a reasonable and affordable cost.
 
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