India Pakistan conflict along LoC and counter terrorist operations

[daya]

Wo hamare ek jawan ko shaheed karta hai, ham uske 4 maar giraate hain, lekin jab tak unki army ko ghatak chot nahi pahunchegi yahi chalta rahega... Unke liye unke jawan to fodder hain, ham char maar girayenge, wo peeche se char aur khade kar denge... jab tak inke jarnails na napenge, tab tak bahut mushkil hai.. Ab RAW kya karti hai, wo ya home ministry or PMO hi jaante hain...

 

[Killbot]

We train their army officers , saw a news article which mentioned 1000 afghan soldiers trained by us, annually.

Remember seeing a doc on Afghanistan , where a US army officer claims that a big issue with training them is literacy.

They dont have basic reading / writing skills .

More like a few dozen ANA officers at IMA. Not 1000 soldiers. But that is regular officers. Not SOF. Their SOF are trained by Americans.

 

[Villager]

it has atleast the will to survive and propagate and has survived for quite some time

Islam to muslims and non muslims are usually different things with different meaning. The non muslim worlds would identify all people with a muslim outlook as a muslim irrespective of their differences. While within muslim communities Shias are infidels to Sunnis, Ahmedis are infidels to both Shias and sunnis, agnostic and atheist muslims are all blasphemers to all conservative muslims. Bangladeshis were labeled Hindus, declared animist by Paki generals, butchered and calls made by Paki mosques to kill and rape Bangladeshis for not following true Islam. Iranians are referred as Children of Magi by Saudis. Who is muslim, what's Islam and whether it's will to survive is keeping it alive or is it already dead is all debatable and pointless. Islam, if it manages to survive would go through several reforms within muslim community and be a cultural symbol at best in this hugely diverse world. The religion isn't going to expand much more.

 

[HawkisRight]

Your point being? What does this have to do with their capabilities.

Dude u are d one making points of Afghan so called sf training Indian sf ya whatever..Americans training dem for 2 decades providing Gucci gear provide all d operations support in d Raid but still Afghan forces gets smacked by talibs every other week .. I m all for self criticism but sometimes it's just ott..and Mind you the Afghani not so special army is holding on their own because of Americans the day Americans withdraw these not so special forces will be rolled over by Taliban in Kabul

 

[FalconZero]

These guys were trained by Green Berets initially and then ST6. They've been conducting night raids on a regular basis for over a decade now. These are direct action raids. On the scale of OBL raid, minus the pakistani airspace factor. But they operate in Taliban territory. Talis have brought ST6 choppers multiple times before. So just as dangerous as OBL raid. And coming to the raid itself, it is always going to be dangerous as hell, as commanders in Afghanistan have well trained guards in the dozens. The objective is to capture HVTs. They've been very successful off late, even though Americans don't assist them anymore.

The largest operation by Indian SF, on the other hand, has been 2016 LoC strike. It had its fair share of dangers, but not even close to what ANA/NDS SF guys face in Taliban controlled territory. Their experience in such operations can prove invaluable to Para, who might/might not need to conduct such operations in Gilgit Baltistan. Especially night operations. Para SF night fighting capability has been abysmal for a long time. It is probably improving now, but I don't know. But we do have units capable of the same in India. Within RAW. Para can be trained by them as well.

My comment was on the post which claimed that Afghan SF needed training from Para. They most certainly do not. Recognizing our own weaknesses is extremely important if we want to get better.

Hmm some fair points but acc to your own points Para SF is way more experienced than them, it has been operating for 54+ years, I don't think 2016 was even close to their old missions, adding some of their missions from wiki :

I am sure operating in taliban dominated region has fair share of issues but you can't compare them with terrorists backed by pakistani forces aided by the intels involving likes of ISI or the missions performed by SFs in the past. Still yes taliban is proly more mature and combat ready than the pathetic chimps in kashmir who get shot by IA every third day but claiming that these forces have parity with troops whose operational history is longer than the existence of the war in the afghani territory is kinda pretty myopic don't you think? Also, the fact that Para sf have capability to operate in regions which I think afghanis can't even dream of.
So one the one side I will not deny that SFs can learn from afghans but at the same time the way outright rejected with the grim of superiority sounds more like ego trip than anything.

Also,

They most certainly do not. Recognizing our own weaknesses is extremely important if we want to get better.

I hope you see the sheer irony in your statement.

 

[Killbot]

Dude u are d one making points of Afghan so called sf training Indian sf ya whatever..Americans training dem for 2 decades providing Gucci gear provide all d operations support in d Raid but still Afghan forces gets smacked by talibs every other week .. I m all for self criticism but sometimes it's just ott

Afghan *forces*. Not SOF. And they aren't supported by American forces on all missions anymore. Just the ones where America wants to capture someone.

And I meant only in the night raid/night fighting in particular and Dorect action in general. Para SF are superior in many regards. LRRPs for example.

For that matter, even Para have their share of botched operations. EDI building hostage situation for example. The op was so poorly planned that it led to 3 soldiers losing their lives, Capt. Tushar Mahajan, Capt. Pawan Kumar and L.Nk. Om Prakash. They used only one entry point, didn't use a helicopter to enter from top etc. Why? They didn't have enough experience in such operations and the field commander did not have time to plan the operation. And made tactical errors under stress.

Indian Special Forces (archived)

I'd be very glad if every soldier in the IA gets: moden combat boots, gloves, knee pads, ear piece for comms, a good reliable assault rifle, a good plater carrier with ability to stop atleast AK rounds, a good helmet, a standard knife, a good 9mm or .45 cal secondary fire arm, a modern uniform...

defenceforumindia.com

 

[Killbot]

Hmm some fair points but acc to your own points Para SF is way more experienced than them, it has been operating for 54+ years, I don't think 2016 was even close to their old missions, adding some of their missions from wiki :
View attachment 66771
I am sure operating in taliban dominated region has fair share of issues but you can't compare them with terrorists backed by pakistani forces aided by the intels involving likes of ISI or the missions performed by SFs in the past. Still yes taliban is proly more mature and combat ready than the pathetic chimps in kashmir who get shot by IA every third day but claiming that these forces have parity with troops whose operational history is longer than the existence of the war in the afghani territory is kinda pretty myopic don't you think? Also, the fact that Para sf have capability to operate in regions which I think afghanis can't even dream of.
So one the one side I will not deny that SFs can learn from afghans but at the same time the way outright rejected with the grim of superiority sounds more like ego trip than anything.

Also,

I hope you see the sheer irony in your statement.

Dude, I meant Direct Action raids on positions with a large number of enemy combatants specifically. Maybe CQB in general. Nothing else. I know Para SF are more experienced in everything else.

Also, I should have said in recent years. My bad. When infantry generals have been utterly misusing Para, which is leading to dilution of their capabilities. And mindlessly increasing number of Para battalions. They did a lot of murky shit in Sri Lanka and Operarion Khukri was near perfect.

 

[Shashank Nayak]

They should be training Indian Special Forces. Those guys are hardcore.

How extensive is the Afghan commandos' experience in terms of operations against a conventional army, in enemy terrain that is as well guarded as the loc.. Even if Afghan commandos were better in some aspects of special operations.. India has units that are experienced in a wide range of contingencies like amphibious operations, large scale airborne operations, decades worth of experience in high altitude warfare, jungle warfare etc..

 

[Killbot]

How extensive is the Afghan commandos' experience in terms of operations against a conventional army, in enemy terrain that is as well guarded as the loc.. Even if Afghan commandos were better in some aspects of special operations.. India has units that are experienced in a wide range of contingencies like amphibious operations, large scale airborne operations, decades worth of experience in high altitude warfare, jungle warfare etc..

Sir, like I said in my previous post, I did not mean conventional forces at all. I meant direct action against enemy HVTs. And night fighting. Nothing else.

 

[mist_consecutive]

They should be training Indian Special Forces. Those guys are hardcore.

Nothing hardcore about them. Got the opportunity to work with Afghans and understand them better. The majority of them are very simple-minded (to the point of being dumb), very honest (like they always speak their mind without even thinking), easily convinced, and sometimes quite radical religiously.

Without ranting about them, it's more like they have very little regard for life (theirs, or others, which can make them seem hardcore or badass), but you will realize they are borderline idiots with no sense of danger.

 

[Shashank Nayak]

These guys were trained by Green Berets initially and then ST6. They've been conducting night raids on a regular basis for over a decade now. These are direct action raids. On the scale of OBL raid, minus the pakistani airspace factor. But they operate in Taliban territory. Talis have brought ST6 choppers multiple times before. So just as dangerous as OBL raid. And coming to the raid itself, it is always going to be dangerous as hell, as commanders in Afghanistan have well trained guards in the dozens. The objective is to capture HVTs. They've been very successful off late, even though Americans don't assist them anymore.

The largest operation by Indian SF, on the other hand, has been 2016 LoC strike. It had its fair share of dangers, but not even close to what ANA/NDS SF guys face in Taliban controlled territory. Their experience in such operations can prove invaluable to Para, who might/might not need to conduct such operations in Gilgit Baltistan. Especially night operations. Para SF night fighting capability has been abysmal for a long time. It is probably improving now, but I don't know. But we do have units capable of the same in India. Within RAW. Para can be trained by them as well.

My comment was on the post which claimed that Afghan SF needed training from Para. They most certainly do not. Recognizing our own weaknesses is extremely important if we want to get better.

The americans during the OBL raid did not have to face the extremely dense SAM coverage that India faces at the loc, as the Afghan border is not so well defended by a radar network. Without extensive dead/sead carrying out heli insertions is near suicidal along the loc. But, then, this fact also, leads to less real world heli insert operations experience for para sf. So, PARA SF can of course learn from Afghan SOF. But, Afghan commandos can also learn from para about large operations involving insertion behind enemy lines in a conventional war.
Also, we have MARCOS and Garuds, and HAWS where the afghans can learn some useful stuff.

 

[Trololo]

Much better equipped. Let's not even go there.

ANA SF is better equipped than Para?

 

[Deadtrap]

 

[cereal killer]

My assessment how we can take over PoK and GB.

1. Afghanistan is our blood brother, we should increase military cooperation and later we both can create instability in Pakistan as GB in Indian control will create an Indian version of CPEC which will IMO be called as India Afghanistan Economic Corridor (IAEC) that will boost the economies of both India and Afghanistan. So Afghanistan will be helping us.

2. We should contain the share of water that goes to them under the Indus water treaty by making Dams in J&K and similar dams should be made with investment in Afghanistan over Kabul river that will increase the water supply and availability in Afghanistan and will hurt Pakistan a lot.

3. Information and Propaganda warfare via SM in GB and PoK to turn the local population against Pakistan by showing how good the muslims live in India and how they are being treated.

4. Funding and fuelling insurgencies in Balochistan, Sindhudesh, Pashtunistan and Many Punjabi areas of South Punjab.

5. Arms race against Pakistan: 2 benefits, A. Our Military gap with china will reduce B. Will make pakistan buy more weapons.

6. Wait: pakistan is in grey list, has a lot of external debt and tonnes of internal debt, spends 4% of economy on defence, corrupt generals of porki army stealing money And an arms race will be final nail in coffin, we should show aggression on LoC to make pakistan panic and buy weapons just like china did.

7. After a few years it will be easy peasy to take over PoJKL as even the people would request India to take them over.

I doubt about the 7th point as that is very very unlikely.. Pakis have tried this for 70 freakin years & only found limited success in it even when Kashmiris share the same faith as them so in case of India that would be a quite a stretch.

Agree with 6th point.. Even better would be to make our own OFB's better & create even a limited MIC.. That'll increase pressure on Pakis & they'll be on a buying spree more debt & everything.. Just like we did after Galwan clash. Their economy will go bankrupt & venezuela way.
Agree with Point 2,4,5

We don't share a land route with Afg so I guess the Corridor thing is a pipe dream for now.. Even the status of Chahbahar project is unclear & so is the supposed rail link from Zahedan to Afghanistan. Also the area bordering GB is not considered stable too. Also ISI will be a big threat to any such activities there.

 

[Killbot]

ANA SF is better equipped than Para?

Yes. Courtesy of Uncle Sam.
NDS Special forces: 3000 nos.

ANA Commando corps: 20000 nos.

 

[Assassin 2.0]

 

[Cheran]

Again -

We friggin need to escalate.

Response should be disproportionate.

 

[FalconZero]

Dude, I meant Direct Action raids on positions with a large number of enemy combatants specifically. Maybe CQB in general. Nothing else. I know Para SF are more experienced in everything else.

Also, I should have said in recent years. My bad. When infantry generals have been utterly misusing Para, which is leading to dilution of their capabilities. And mindlessly increasing number of Para battalions. They did a lot of murky shit in Sri Lanka and Operarion Khukri was near perfect.

Ummm, i went through the history of ANA commandos, they are a force to be reckoned with which I agree but they have done nothing which Para SF hasn't done, even going by recent events, during the 2016 operations by para or Myanmar ops which were conducted in night time, where the enemy had larger numbers and were present in totally different country one of which is totally hostile against us despite that both missions were successful, yes few mishaps did happen in recent skirmish but those can be attributed to various other factors, it's not that para didn't know how to in those cases.
I agree with that misusing part but none of these points explain how ANA commandos are in anyway better than Paras, in CQB, not enough data, while the whole history of para is filled with vivid range of missions. Ignoring all this that most of the missions of ANA involved operations on the same territory, hostile yes but not on the same level as performing ops in a totally different nation.
I don't claim to know everything but I will not outright reject that somehow paras are inferior to afghan sfs or that they can't learn anything from paras or vice versa.

 

[Shashank Nayak]

Again -

View attachment 66782

We friggin need to escalate.

Response should be disproportionate.

We should launch a barrage of pinaka.. on some of their command posts..

 

[NAMICA]