India Pakistan conflict along IB and LoC (July 2021)

Kumaoni

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You don’t have to take PoK conventionally. You just need to wait 4 Paxtan to go into a constitutional crisis and revolution and then take it like Russia took Crimea (Ie without a bullet fired), although I anticipate it to be different.
Ya, sure... by the next morning, he would be out on his a$$ having got the boot. Dissing the elected political leadership is a no- no. These things are easier for people on the internet to say, not for people holding important positions.

In any case, I don't understand this obsession with PoK. Some stupid pie in the sky idea . After the Russian disaster in Ukraine, any conventional war has to be fought only if absolutely necessary. Stupid to believe otherwise. The PoK thing is only to be dangled about to keep the Pakistanis flustered, not for anything else. At best, if the ceasefire completely breaks down, the LoC can be changed in some areas. If Pakistan continues to follows the Bajwa plan, then we simply concentrate on our economy and add to our gains in J&K. Anything else is a loony idea.
 

samsaptaka

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Promoting army to criticise government on national security?
No, force the govt and top brass to come up with a long term plan to take back PoK and more importantly put that plan into action.

After the Russian disaster in Ukraine, any conventional war
I never said it should be conventional only. Any trick , hook or crook , slowly keep pushing LoC, while destabilizing Balochistan etc....but importantly there should be a plan and will to do it. Today we have neither. Both political parties and Armed forces are to blame
 

SwordOfDarkness

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No, force the govt and top brass to come up with a long term plan to take back PoK and more importantly put that plan into action.
Saying "politicians dont have guts" is direct insubordination. Remember, in a functioning country like ours, Army is under full civillian control and they cannnot go against govt orders.
 

mist_consecutive

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Ofcourse they should have been, as they were members of the erstwhile British Indian Army.

By nature that organization was Expeditionary and Imperialistic.
Hate to say this, but this is true. The environment where you were fostered & made into a man makes all the difference. Britishers are were imperialistic, competent, ambitious, and most of all, full of pride.

Current generals grew on ahimsa principles, learning about the communism-infected history of shame and Islamic conquest. They did not grow a spine strong enough to fill the shoes of Sam Manekshaw.
 

ezsasa

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Hate to say this, but this is true. The environment where you were fostered & made into a man makes all the difference. Britishers are were imperialistic, competent, ambitious, and most of all, full of pride.

Current generals grew on ahimsa principles, learning about the communism-infected history of shame and Islamic conquest. They did not grow a spine strong enough to fill the shoes of Sam Manekshaw.
only way out of this deadlock is to build capability, intent can change anytime later.
 

mist_consecutive

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only way out of this deadlock is to build capability, intent can change anytime later.
The way out is already being established. Embracing our bharatiya culture and rich history of conquest needs to be taught more in schools. A country that does not have pride is already defeated.

We have become too comfortable with defeat and casualties. We will hear about soldiers killed and lands lost, and we will shrug off to move on with our lives. It sets a wrong example that humiliation is acceptable.

See how Pakistanis manage it, they are willing to die of malnutrition but will not accept defeat. They twist the facts and create propaganda to suit their needs. When they got straight-up humiliated by the Balakot bombing, they immediately struck back the next day.

And better, see how China manages it. Completely hiding their losses and casualties, while creating a narrative of their victory with videos and images of our casualties, whereas the ground truth is completely different.

We need a decisive military victory to build up confidence, competence, and pride.
 

ezsasa

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The way out is already being established. Embracing our bharatiya culture and rich history of conquest needs to be taught more in schools. A country that does not have pride is already defeated.

We have become too comfortable with defeat and casualties. We will hear about soldiers killed and lands lost, and we will shrug off to move on with our lives. It sets a wrong example that humiliation is acceptable.

See how Pakistanis manage it, they are willing to die of malnutrition but will not accept defeat. They twist the facts and create propaganda to suit their needs. When they got straight-up humiliated by the Balakot bombing, they immediately struck back the next day.

And better, see how China manages it. Completely hiding their losses and casualties, while creating a narrative of their victory with videos and images of our casualties, whereas the ground truth is completely different.

We need a decisive military victory to build up confidence, competence, and pride.
from a purely military standpoint, your points are valid. it's when we factor in economy and geo politics, this gets a bit tempered, as it has been the case for past 75 years.

if chini stick to their timetable, they will pose some questions within a year or two anyways.

needless to say, paki land being a security state they do those things because every thing is viewed from a tactical lens.

i'd say instead of depending on "bhartiya culture of the past", might as well focus on bringing clarity among the masses on the concept of national self interest, which in turn will create it's own opportunities, to protect those opportunities, military will have a role to play. this process has kick started in recent years, just needs more believers in national self interest.
 

Waanar

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Ofcourse they should have been, as they were members of the erstwhile British Indian Army.

By nature that organization was Expeditionary and Imperialistic.
Very true.
This needs to start from the very bottom with children being taught about the expeditionary Indian empires and taught to take pride in the stories of the Cholas, Marathas, Sikhs, Dogras.

What Indian doesn't feel a reinvigorated spirit for Akhand Bharat reading the story of Gulab Singh Jamwal or Maharaja Ranjit Singh?

Even simpler stuff like renaming the "MoD" as the "Ministry of War" or nicknaming the leading IBGs in the cold start doctrine as "Invasion group XYZ" would have incredible second order effects with the message reaching down to the subconscious of the highest to lowest echelons of a paltan, from the babus to the Havaldars, on what they're meant to be. We often hear soldiers and officers remark that they'll die for the "izzat of the paltan" in a heartbeat. How about the very core of existence of the paltan, so overtly expressed in the name?
Won't they go the extra mile to defend the very foundation of their unit? The same unit whose respect they're willing to die for?
I believe yes.

MGA often remarks that the habit of Indian Army boasting of being a non expeditionary force is counter productive and we need to get our head in the expeditionary game. The lower ranking officers know where the wrong is. From Avinash sir to MGA sir, you'll hear almost the same sentiments echoed on this forum. How you get their voices heard on a higher level is a question that remains unanswered.

Or maybe, just maybe, the inevitable churn of the generation will see us getting more sharp teeth high rankers as the current Captains and Majors rise to Brigadiers and Generals. I haven't yet met too many ahimsavaadi lieutenants which makes me wonder if they just lose their edge later down the road or it was just the previous generation raised on Maulana Abul's crappy education system.
 

mist_consecutive

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Or maybe, just maybe, the inevitable churn of the generation will see us getting more sharp teeth high rankers as the current Captains and Majors rise to Brigadiers and Generals. I haven't yet met too many ahimsavaadi lieutenants which makes me wonder if they just lose their edge later down the road or it was just the previous generation raised on Maulana Abul's crappy education system.
The political party at the center decides who gets the helm of the armed forces. The top leadership of the armed forces dictates its doctrines, and the culture/teaching of the institution dictates its future leaders. It is a cyclic process.

Long years of ahimsa + apathy towards warfare + corruption + Congress at center -> Pusillanimous leadership focused more on minting money than fighting wars -> Rot in the organizational structure, training pattern, warfare doctrine, and culture.

Outstandingly honest, capable people are often plucked out deliberately, remember Col. SS Shekhawat ? Or Col. Purohit ? It is widespread, competent people voluntarily retire than face harassment.
 

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Jimih

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The idea of sending foreign fighters to Kashmir and Palestine against the backdrop of the Russian-Ukrainian conflict was raised during a meeting in Turkey that was organized by Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan’s secretive paramilitary group SADAT

Inflation toh sambhalo saalo pehle, Pakistan ke baad agla number tumhara hi hain
 

FalconSlayers

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The idea of sending foreign fighters to Kashmir and Palestine against the backdrop of the Russian-Ukrainian conflict was raised during a meeting in Turkey that was organized by Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan’s secretive paramilitary group SADAT

More turkroaches to shoot at for our boys
 

Jambudweepa

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The idea of sending foreign fighters to Kashmir and Palestine against the backdrop of the Russian-Ukrainian conflict was raised during a meeting in Turkey that was organized by Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan’s secretive paramilitary group SADAT

Remember a time we dint care about Turkey or what happens there . As india grows , its influence has created another enemy .
 

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