India Pakistan conflict along IB and LoC (July 2021 onwards)

[FalconSlayers]

 

[Kumaoni]

The “empirical evidence” is from a General who literally has taken part in COIN operations. How many operations has western infantry done WITHOUT any air support in the last 20 years again.

And semi illiterate? I wouldn’t call having the most kills in a single sector “semi illiterate”, and this was when he had two battalions.
Maybe you should actually read his work instead of insulting him?

Anyway, the point still stands as the ISNAS is complete shite in comparison to any 5.56 caliber weapon of a western country.

 

[Kumaoni]

View attachment 225017

7:20

 

[armyofhind]

He didn't even watch the damn video where the M855A1 showed far superior terminal ballistics over Ak rounds and over much greater distances.

M855A1 is a special round put to use by US SOF post their initial experience in the GWOT.

It's not a vanilla 5.56 as far as I know. The primary motivation for making the round was actually to take the lead out of the round, so that it doesn't poison the soil at firing ranges.


Coming from a GB who's actually used the round in combat, M855A1 does not really offer any significant advantage over standard 5.56 in terms of accuracy.

Nothing on terminal ballistics though, he also mentions that there is no lab data available for the round where testing has been done under controlled environments.

Inside of 200mtrs in an urban environment like Kashmir, I do believe a rounds ability to degrade cover and over penetrate, like the standard AK 7.62x39mm counts more to the actual users - RR, Infantry units of the time IMHO.

 

[armyofhind]

He didn't even watch the damn video where the M855A1 showed far superior terminal ballistics over Ak rounds and over much greater distances.

M855A1 is a special round put to use by US SOF post their initial experience in the GWOT.

It's not a vanilla 5.56 as far as I know. The primary motivation for making the round was actually to take the lead out of the round, so that it doesn't poison the soil at firing ranges.


Coming from a GB who's actually used the round in combat, M855A1 does not really offer any significant advantage over standard 5.56 in terms of accuracy.

Nothing on terminal ballistics though, he also mentions that there is no lab data available for the round where testing has been done under controlled environments.

Inside of 200mtrs in an urban environment like Kashmir, I do believe a rounds ability to degrade cover and over penetrate, like the standard AK 7.62x39mm counts more to the actual users - RR, Infantry units of the time IMHO.

 

[Blood+]

The “empirical evidence” is from a General who literally has taken part in COIN operations.

That's called an anecdote, you absolute mong!!

How many operations has western infantry done WITHOUT any air support in the last 20 years again.

Irrelevant!!

And semi illiterate? I wouldn’t call having the most kills in a single sector “semi illiterate”, and this was when he had two battalions.
Maybe you should actually read his work instead of insulting him?

I don't need to. I've seen and heard all I needed to. Here, I think you will find this to be............illuminating, made this specially for your eyes only. Enjoy:

Anyway, the point still stands as the ISNAS is complete shite in comparison to any 5.56 caliber weapon of a western country.

Stop trying to obfuscate. On second thought, nah, you're just too dumb to even think of that. Why are you even bringing the INSAS into this when I had specifically talked about a belt-fed LMG??!! Are you high or something??!!

 

[Blood+]

M855A1 is a special round put to use by US SOF post their initial experience in the GWOT.

It's not a vanilla 5.56 as far as I know. The primary motivation for making the round was actually to take the lead out of the round, so that it doesn't poison the soil at firing ranges.


Coming from a GB who's actually used the round in combat, M855A1 does not really offer any significant advantage over standard 5.56 in terms of accuracy.

Nothing on terminal ballistics though, he also mentions that there is no lab data available for the round where testing has been done under controlled environments.

Inside of 200mtrs in an urban environment like Kashmir, I do believe a rounds ability to degrade cover and over penetrate, like the standard AK 7.62x39mm counts more to the actual users - RR, Infantry units of the time IMHO.

It's been made their standard issue round since circa 2012!! Where the hell have you been living??!!

 

[armyofhind]

It's been made their standard issue round since circa 2012!! Where the hell have you been living??!!

Being made standard issue is fine. That wasn't the point in the first place.

The debate was about the terminal ballistics of 7.62 vs 5.56 if I read correctly.

This is an ongoing debate as such. A lot of users themselves both Indian and Foreign have been quoted online and in books etc. saying the AK round is a better choice for lethality inside of 200mtrs.

The 5.56 performs better in terms of accuracy beyond those ranges.. that's a given.

 

[Blood+]

M855A1 is a special round put to use by US SOF post their initial experience in the GWOT.

It's not a vanilla 5.56 as far as I know. The primary motivation for making the round was actually to take the lead out of the round, so that it doesn't poison the soil at firing ranges.

It's been made their standard issue round since circa 2012!! Where the hell have you been living??!!

Coming from a GB who's actually used the round in combat, M855A1 does not really offer any significant advantage over standard 5.56 in terms of accuracy.

Whoever said anything about accuracy??!!

Nothing on terminal ballistics though, he also mentions that there is no lab data available for the round where testing has been done under controlled environments.

Yeah, the US Army just adopted it on a whim, right??!! Come on now, quit trying to defend the indefensible.

Inside of 200mtrs in an urban environment like Kashmir, I do believe a rounds ability to degrade cover and over penetrate, like the standard AK 7.62x39mm counts more to the actual users - RR, Infantry units of the time IMHO.

Even in that role, M855A1 does a heck of a lot better than standard AK rounds!!

 

[Blood+]

Being made standard issue is fine. That wasn't the point in the first place.

The debate was about the terminal ballistics of 7.62 vs 5.56 if I read correctly.

This is an ongoing debate as such. A lot of users themselves both Indian and Foreign have been quoted online and in books etc. saying the AK round is a better choice for lethality inside of 200mtrs.

Talk is cheap, especially when the facts speak completely to the contrary!! Just watch the damn video and see for yourself. Why rely on mere words when you have cold hard data available to you at the tip of your finger??

 

[Kumaoni]

That's called an anecdote, you absolute mong!!

I’ve posted empirical evidence of 7.62 rounds having more stopping power, maybe chill out with the name calling.

Irrelevant!!

How is it irrelevant? Most western infantry guys don’t even need to fire their carbines because of the overwhelming air support they receive

don't need to. I've seen and heard all I needed to. Here, I think you will find this to be............illuminating, made this specially for your eyes only. Enjoy:

There’s a reason Maj Gen GD bakshi never made it to command theatre past a Romeo Force. You should read some of the recommendations he put in his literature. He would have restructured the entire bloody army, and who knows, we might have actually have a standardized rifle that’s not junk

Stop trying to obfuscate. On second thought, nah, you're just too dumb to even think of that. Why are you even bringing the INSAS into this when I had specifically talked about a belt-fed LMG??!! Are you high or something??!!

More name calling, maybe your russian masters have started abusing you so ur a bit frustrated. I’m not even going to respond to this, my point was SPECIFICALLY on 7.62 AKM vs 5.56 ISNAS, in which 7.62 AKM blew the isnas out in every bloody metric.

 

[Kumaoni]

Talk is cheap, especially when the facts speak completely to the contrary!! Just watch the damn video and see for yourself. Why rely on mere words when you have cold hard data available to you at the tip of your finger??

LOL even in this video the cheaper rounds of the AKM performed better than their 5.56 counterparts. and in india we are cheap.

 

[Blood+]

I’ve posted empirical evidence of 7.62 rounds having more stopping power, maybe chill out with the name calling.

No, what you posted is nothing more than conjecture!! It doesn't make it right just because it came out of the mouth of some retired old geezer. English, motherfucker!!

How is it irrelevant? Most western infantry guys don’t even need to fire their carbines because of the overwhelming air support they receive

Irrelevant because air support has got nothing to do with relative terminal ballistics of assault rifle rounds of different caliber!! If you could not figure this out yourself, then you should seek therapy.

There’s a reason Maj Gen GD bakshi never made it to command theatre past a Romeo Force. You should read some of the recommendations he put in his literature. He would have restructured the entire bloody army, and who knows, we might have actually have a standardized rifle that’s not junk

maybe, that doesn't make him an authority on wound ballistics though, now does it??

More name calling, maybe your russian masters have started abusing you so ur a bit frustrated.

Nah, you're the one born and raised and been living in the abuse land of USA, feeding off the bottoms of your white anglo masters. Clearly, you've been doing it for so long that you have started projecting this onto others.

I’m not even going to respond to this, my point was SPECIFICALLY on 7.62 AKM vs 5.56 ISNAS, in which 7.62 AKM blew the isnas out in every bloody metric.

Did I even mention INSAS in my original comment, you fucking twat??!!

 

[Blood+]

LOL even in this video the cheaper rounds of the AKM performed better than their 5.56 counterparts. and in india we are cheap.

Abbe ankhe hai ya button??!!

 

[armyofhind]

Talk is cheap, especially when the facts speak completely to the contrary!! Just watch the damn video and see for yourself. Why rely on mere words when you have cold hard data available to you at the tip of your finger??

I dont see the data here.
A "test" done on an open range under so many variables is not data as such.
I'd be happy to see a test report comparing the penetrative ability of 7.62x39 VS a M855A1 on soft skinned targets vs targets behind cover and armour, at various ranges to actually conclude using Data.

Apart from that, shooting ballistic gel targets for a Youtube video on an open range without any control parameters does not really prove much.

On watching the video, do give the GB vid I shared a watch.

It's been made their standard issue round since circa 2012!! Where the hell have you been living??!!

Whoever said anything about accuracy??!!

Yeah, the US Army just adopted it on a whim, right??!! Come on now, quit trying to defend the indefensible.

Even in that role, M855A1 does one heck of a better job!!

It's been made their standard issue round since circa 2012!! Where the hell have you been living??!!

Whoever said anything about accuracy??!!

Yeah, the US Army just adopted it on a whim, right??!! Come on now, quit trying to defend the indefensible.

Even in that role, M855A1 does one heck of a better job!!

Not as per the actual users, if you put into perspective the actual user reviews from our guys, or even from the GB who's vid I have linked earlier.

It's been made their standard issue round since circa 2012!! Where the hell have you been living??!!

Whoever said anything about accuracy??!!

Yeah, the US Army just adopted it on a whim, right??!! Come on now, quit trying to defend the indefensible.

Even in that role, M855A1 does one heck of a better job!!

Again, the GB has quoted that the main purpose of making the round was entirely different. With enhanced performance as a secondary priority. On the latter count, it did not translate well into experience.

About whether or not the Us Army adopted it on a whim, well these things are more often than not more controlled by bureaucracy, rather than merit. The GB again mentions there were no published lab reports about the performance of these specific rounds.

You only need to read a bit more into the story of how really the M16 came into standard service issue as an untested platform in Vietnam, and the problems and casualties the early versions caused, to get perspective on how bureaucracy can fuck things up.

But that's besides the point.

I'd be happy to see some actual comparative data, if it exists. In the absence of that, we have to rely on user testimonies from combat.

 

[mist_consecutive]

Fucking hell is there a literal mutiny ?

 

[Kumaoni]

I dont see the data here.
A "test" done on an open range under so many variables is not data as such.
I'd be happy to see a test report comparing the penetrative ability of 7.62x39 VS a M855A1 on soft skinned targets vs targets behind cover and armour, at various ranges to actually conclude using Data.

Apart from that, shooting ballistic gel targets for a Youtube video on an open range without any control parameters does not really prove much.

On watching the video, do give the G





Not as per the actual users, if you put into perspective the actual user reviews from our guys, or even from the GB who's vid I have linked earlier.



Again, the GB has quoted that the main purpose of making the round was entirely different. With enhanced performance as a secondary priority. On the latter count, it did not translate well into experience.

About whether or not the Us Army adopted it on a whim, well these things are more often than not more controlled by bureaucracy, rather than merit. The GB again mentions there were no published lab reports about the performance of these specific rounds.

You only need to read a bit more into the story of how really the M16 came into standard service issue as an untested platform in Vietnam, and the problems and casualties the early versions caused, to get perspective on how bureaucracy can fuck things up.

But that's besides the point.

I'd be happy to see some actual comparative data, if it exists. In the absence of that, we have to rely on user testimonies from combat.

NOT on the M855A1, but general 7.62 vs 5.56 rounds of nato countries and warsaw pact

 

[Kumaoni]

No, what you posted is nothing more than conjecture!! It doesn't make it right just because it came out of the mouth of some retired old geezer. English, motherfucker!!

Irrelevant because air support has got nothing to do with relative terminal ballistics of assault rifle rounds of different caliber!! If you could not figure this out yourself, then you should seek therapy.

maybe, that doesn't make him an authority on wound ballistics though, now does it??


Nah, you're the one born and raised and been living in the abuse land of USA, feeding off the bottoms of your white anglo masters. Clearly, you've been doing it for so long that you have started projecting this onto others.

Did I even mention INSAS in my original comment, you fucking twat??!!

I could insult you more, but i rather not argue with a literal manchild.

 

[Tuco]

What happened in Thanamandi? Twitter is nervous .

 

[Kumaoni]

What happened in Thanamandi? Twitter is nervous .

Another fuck up probably due to our bloody generals who have been on the decline since 95