India loses on Sri Lankan battleground

garg_bharat

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@J20!, I have not seen any American action so far to blockade Chinese trade, in SCS or anywhere else.

USA is only saying freedom of navigation, which is as important for Chinese trade, as it is for trade of other countries.

USA is not even China's enemy; as your fellow Chinese commentators have repeated said on this very forum.

So when you talk about US bases in the same vein as Chinese controlled overseas ports, it cannot be due to USA.

See I do not know what is the purpose. A Chinese ship or sub can very well refuel at Colombo. It does not need Hambantota. There is no great advantage Hambantota offers that Colombo does not. Except, just one, that Hambantota is isolated and can be controlled by Chinese Navy without any SL oversight.

The same is with Gwadar which has no economic importance.

Chinese trade cannot traverse the mighty Himalaya and land at Gwadar. A better route is through Russia. In reality Gwadar will never flourish as a civilian port.
 

J20!

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BS

You have issued numbers of warning to india for any oil exploration in south china sea though it is strictly fall under international law. You sunk many Vietnam ships. We never did that with any of our neighbor.
Vietnam has sunk a number of Chinese fishing vessels as well. Such things happen when maritime features are DISPUTED.

Oil exploration in waters claimed by both Vietnam AND China. As far as I know, India does not lay claim to Hambantota. Or do you? Maybe you're claiming Gwadar and ports in Myanmar too?

Where have you build those dozens of ports? name them.


http://www.economist.com/news/inter...mainly-about-trade-not-aggression-new-masters

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4640513,00.html

Chinese companies run ports even on the continental USA, Mexico, Israel, Greece, numerous ports in Africa and others. If you didn't know, China is the no. 1 trading nation, and Chinese shipping companies are some of the biggest in the world.

SO far as Indian ocean is concern, we know your intention and we shall not allow you to be success.

Your general says that south china sea is yours since it is named on china. I say indian ocean is ours since it is named on us. The whole subcontinent is named on india, so we have the right to protect it and see that evil forces do not intrude into it.
I don't where where that particular article is found in international law, but feel free to do as you please.

What you don't seem to comprehend is that India isn't the principal power in the Indian Ocean at all. The US Navy is. China doesn't have bases in the IOR, the US does.
 

garg_bharat

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Oil exploration in waters claimed by both Vietnam AND China. As far as I know, India does not lay claim to Hambantota. Or do you? Maybe you're claiming Gwadar and ports in Myanmar too?
The Chinese are opening hundreds of years of history and claiming anything and everything.

India can also claim a lot of land with this kind of logic; but of course such logic is not sustainable.

We have no interest in claiming Hambantota or Gwadar. Our only interest is to keep both US and China away in making bases close to us.
 

J20!

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@J20!, I have not seen any American action so far to blockade Chinese trade, in SCS or anywhere else.

USA is only saying freedom of navigation, which is as important for Chinese trade, as it is for trade of other countries.

USA is not even China's enemy; as your fellow Chinese commentators have repeated said on this very forum.

So when you talk about US bases in the same vein as Chinese controlled overseas ports, it cannot be due to USA.
"USA is only saying freedom of navigation" for its military vessels within China's EEZ and usually only a few miles from Chinese naval bases on the mainland. there has never been a documented case of China impeding comercial shipping in the SCS or elsewhere.

And as I've mentioned before (unlike the US media covering the SCS) most of the trade going through the SCS is CHINESE TRADE. Ships heading to, or coming from CHINESE ports and cities.

Every case where the US has complained of its "freedom of navigation rights" where cases of Chinese vessels and aircraft impeding US Navy surveilance vessels and flights on surveilance missions in China's EEZ, miles away from the Chinese mainland.

USNS impeccable incident
The EP3E Hainan Incident
The US Navy P8 Incident

All of them where surveilance missions in China's EEZ. These surveilance flights and sail-by's occur on a daily bases, with hundreds recorded ever year.

The only countrys to impede freedom of navigation for commercial shipping have been the US itself and its allies Israel and Saudi Arabia.

-It mined the Nicaraguan Ports in a case that went to the international court of justice.
-The US and Saudi-Arabia blocked an Iranian cargo ship carrying humanitarian aid for beseiged Yemeni's.
-It boarded a Chinese comercial vessel on Charges of transporting materiel to Iran - charges proved false when the ship was searched when forced to dock in Saudi Arabia.
- And BTW, the US "reserves the right" to carry out any such operations whenever and wherever it sees fit, so your assuarances about them not doing the same to Chinese shipping in a war-time scenario ring hollow.

See I do not know what is the purpose. A Chinese ship or sub can very well refuel at Colombo. It does not need Hambantota. There is no great advantage Hambantota offers that Colombo does not. Except, just one, that Hambantota is isolated and can be controlled by Chinese Navy without any SL oversight.
The PLAN submarine in question DID dock in Colombo Port, so I don't understand your assumptions about Hambantota?

The same is with Gwadar which has no economic importance.

Chinese trade cannot traverse the mighty Himalaya and land at Gwadar. A better route is through Russia. In reality Gwadar will never flourish as a civilian port.
What are you basing your conclusions on? Has development of Gwadar on this scale ever been attempted before? BTW, China already has a pipeline going through Myanmar which tranports oil and gas from the Bay of Bengal straight to China.

Considering that China, through various financial institutions has already commited billions to the Pakistani economic corridor project, I dont understand how such a venture is "impossible". Ask the contractors building the roads and pipelines if its "impossible".I guess we'll have to wait and see.
 
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J20!

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The Chinese are opening hundreds of years of history and claiming anything and everything.

India can also claim a lot of land with this kind of logic; but of course such logic is not sustainable.

We have no interest in claiming Hambantota or Gwadar. Our only interest is to keep both US and China away in making bases close to us.
The US already has a military base close to India, China does not.

I believe there needs to be a clear explanation regarding the difirence between a US-Style Naval base and a port run by a foreign company. Because as I said before, Chinese companies do run comercial ports in the US itself.

I dont see Obama throwing fits about "Chinese Bases" on the US mainland.
 

sgarg

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J20!, you misconstrued my comment about Hambantota. I meant that Hambantota port is not needed as Colombo already is a transhipment hub.

Gwadar port has been in existence for many years. How much cargo is loaded/unloaded at Gwadar?

How much captive market is there close to Gwadar - either in terms of producing entities or consuming entities?

Your logic about viability is wrong as both Hambantota and Gwadar are losing money, still China is pumping more money into them.

If you want to develop tourism around Hambantota, you would concentrate on airport, not the port.

Myanmar ports are more suited for China for oil and gas pipelines due to geography and proximity to consuming centers in China.

The sum total is that Gwadar port is unsuitable for commercial activity. What China intends to do with it? Its only utility is as a military outpost close to American base of Diego Garcia.

Hambantota will not develop as Colombo is already there very close, and Hambantota does not offer any particular advantage over Colombo.
 

HariPrasad-1

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Vietnam has sunk a number of Chinese fishing vessels as well. Such things happen when maritime features are DISPUTED.

Oil exploration in waters claimed by both Vietnam AND China. As far as I know, India does not lay claim to Hambantota. Or do you? Maybe you're claiming Gwadar and ports in Myanmar too?
Ihave not read any news of vietnah sinking chinese ship. We are exploring the oil in exclusive vietnam economic zone and still it pains you. You have bullied all your small neighbors and you have made Tibet a slave country. You have build dam on Brahmputra in our land. Wait for few years. we will kick you so hard on your dirty @$$ that you will take years to recover. We have a strong government in place. We have started building infrastructure aggressively. We have started all preparations to give you a befitting reply thousand time stronger than we did in nathula. Withing next three years, we will have all goods to teach an unforgettable lesson to you. Believe me that will remind you the rape of Nanking.
I don't where where that particular article is found in international law, but feel free to do as you please.

What you don't seem to comprehend is that India isn't the principal power in the Indian Ocean at all. The US Navy is. China doesn't have bases in the IOR, the US does.
You can find only selective links so not your fault.

Here the question is not whether we are principle power or not. The question is who owns this Indian ocean is. And of course it is us.
 

J20!

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J20!, you misconstrued my comment about Hambantota. I meant that Hambantota port is not needed as Colombo already is a transhipment hub.

Gwadar port has been in existence for many years. How much cargo is loaded/unloaded at Gwadar?

How much captive market is there close to Gwadar - either in terms of producing entities or consuming entities?

Your logic about viability is wrong as both Hambantota and Gwadar are losing money, still China is pumping more money into them.

If youwant to develop tourism around Hambantota , you would concentrate on airport, not the port.

Myanmar ports are more suited for China for oil and gas pipelines due to geography and proximity to consuming centers in China.

The sum total is that Gwadar port is unsuitable for commercial activity. What China intends to do with it? Its only utility is as a military outpost close to American base of Diego Garcia.

Hambantota will not develop as Colombo is already there very close, and Hambantota does not offer any particular advantage over Colombo.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-32400091

For the Chinese, the relationship has a geo-strategic significance.

The corridor through Gwadar gives them their shortest access to the Middle East and Africa, where thousands of Chinese firms, employing tens of thousands of Chinese workers, are involved in development work.

The corridor also promises to open up remote, landlocked Xinjiang, and create incentives for both state and private enterprises to expand economic activity and create jobs in this under-developed region.

China could also be trying to find alternative trade routes to by-pass the Malacca straits, presently the only maritime route China can use to access the Middle East, Africa and Europe. Apart from being long, it can be blockaded in times of war.

This may be the reason China is also pursuing an eastern corridor to the Bay of Bengal, expected to pass through parts of Myanmar, Bangladesh and possibly India.

Experts say much of Chinese activity is geared towards boosting domestic income and consumption as its previous policy of encouraging cheap exports is no longer enough to sustain growth. On the external front, it is investing in a number of ports in Asia in an apparent attempt to access sources of energy and increase its influence over maritime routes.
Hambantota is a single port on a planned route that includes many more ports along the Maritime Silk Road. Some of the ports envisioned are in India itself, which would be quite the contradiction if the whole point of the multi-billion $ initiative was to "surround india".

Sri-Lanka's goal is to become a hub for trans-Indian Ocean trade. How could it possible enter into such a venture with a single port. Even if it could, the port in Colombo is no-where near large enough to handle the volume of shipping traffic that passes through the Indian Ocean.

But I'll humor you. How exactly would the port in Hambantota help in containing India? Assuming that the Sri-Lankan government would agree to host a "PLAN base" (which it wouldn't)...
 

J20!

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Ihave not read any news of vietnah sinking chinese ship. We are exploring the oil in exclusive vietnam economic zone and still it pains you. You have bullied all your small neighbors and you have made Tibet a slave country. You have build dam on Brahmputra in our land. Wait for few years. we will kick you so hard on your dirty @$$ that you will take years to recover. We have a strong government in place. We have started building infrastructure aggressively. We have started all preparations to give you a befitting reply thousand time stronger than we did in nathula. Withing next three years, we will have all goods to teach an unforgettable lesson to you. Believe me that will remind you the rape of Nanking.


You can find only selective links so not your fault.

Here the question is not whether we are principle power or not. The question is who owns this Indian ocean is. And of course it is us.
Debating you isn't even a debate. Its facts vs fantasy. No links, no facts, and a slim hold on reality.

I'll take your word for it Mr."Rape of Nanking"
 

HeinzGud

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@HeinzGud There was the famous burning down of library in Jafna in 80's ...
Sinhalese regret that such a things happened. Sinhalese has learnt there lesson. But the issue is after all this Tamils has not learnt anything.
 

bose

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Sinhalese regret that such a things happened. Sinhalese has learnt there lesson. But the issue is after all this Tamils has not learnt anything.
I pray for peace for both Sinhalese & Tamils... Tamils are your brothers and culturally more close to you than me a Bengali... It the duty of the nation to a look after all...
 

HeinzGud

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What is Sri Lanka's position on Kashmir ?
Sri Lankan position on Kashmir is always sides with Indian position. Sri Lanka wants Kashmir to be part of India. Though the final decision should be rested upon it's citizens. But, having said that actions based on communal lines should not be tolerated by India.
 

HeinzGud

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I pray for peace for both Sinhalese & Tamils... Tamils are your brothers and culturally more close to you than me a Bengali... It the duty of the nation to a look after all...
Sinhalese always consider Tamils to there bothers. But the issue is that Tamils don't consider Sinhalese as their equals.
 

bose

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Sri Lankan position on Kashmir is always sides with Indian position. Sri Lanka wants Kashmir to be part of India. Though the final decision should be rested upon it's citizens. But, having said that actions based on communal lines should not be tolerated by India.
We Indians do not want people to be killed in Kashmir ... The problem stated because of this communal division of people...
 

HeinzGud

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We Indians do not want people to be killed in Kashmir ... The problem stated because of this communal division of people...
Yeah, I understand. You can't reason with Muslims.
 

bose

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Sinhalese always consider Tamils to there bothers. But the issue is that Tamils don't consider Sinhalese as their equals.
I do not believe that ... Tamil are also humans ... In a family elder or bigger brother have to go extra yard ... It happened in my family too...
 

HeinzGud

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there was, just as there is now in providing assistance to tamil people. GOI had asked for permission from SL to supply humanitarian assistance to north, your president rejected. Even the ship convoy was sent un escorted not to be looking imposing/threatening on SL. But when all means failed, GOI was forced to take measures in order to protect tamilians from genocide both from LTTE and SL.
No, there was no need. In fact there are still many millions of people of India who die of hunger, India should give humanitarian aid to citizen of it's own rather than forcing it on the people of some other country. What was the point of spending millions of rupees just to drop some food parcels over Jaffna. Did India believe that Sri Lankan Tamils are more important than their own citizens?

Why Should Sri Lankan president accept India aid? Sri Lanka wasn't at a dire need for humanitarian aid.

Jaffna was political capital of LTTE, IPKF captured it, SL forces as always lost it. Jaffna was never under absolute control of SL even after it was recaptured.
Jaffna was never lost by the SLA after 1996. And how can you say Jaffna was not under absolute control of SL? What are you denominators.

And then gave into SL-india accord giving sweeping powers to tamilians, right when you claim SL forces had a upper hand
That was the tragedy. Sri Lanka should never have signed that accord.

My suggestion is simple, u claimed that your army had oversight. I said point out to a document (not foreign, but domestic human rights body) that either investigated or documented any human rights violations. Are u suggesting, in such a long drown war, SL forces didnt violate any human rights? well to discover those mass graves, SL has to allow international investigators to enter north. How do expect people to discover mass graves without verification on ground. Partly to blame for all this was India's lobbying, actually allowed the US backed draft to be watered down to almost junk and lobbied with US to do so.
There are domestic documents that have investigated about the conduct of the army during the Eelam war 4. They have not come across any genocide evidence.

SLA soldiers has being caught violating human rights. They have been duly punished for their behavior.

Why do anyone need international investigators, when LTTE sympathies TNA is in power in Northern province. You suggest they can do such a little thing? Whole world is watching over Sri Lanka now. I don't think TNA would face any objection from Sri Lankan authorities if they wanted to do it.

how do you stop a sub/warship into entering international waters of IOR. The only way to stop/reduce them is not being given access to base or support system on the ports.
You cannot stop any sub from entering IOR. But you can stalk them and chase them away from IOR. Both Russia and US has mastered that tactic during the cold war. Are you suggesting that Indian Navy don't have the skills to accomplish that task?
 

HeinzGud

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I do not believe that ... Tamil are also humans ... In a family elder or bigger brother have to go extra yard ... It happened in my family too...
In fact Sinhalese are the minority among the majority Tamil population in Sri Lanka and India. Therefore Tamils has the opportunity to go the extra yard.
 

HeinzGud

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@no smoking, can you give statistics

How much cargo is handled month wise at Hambantota?

If the port is making profits or losses?

Indian transhipment business is done in Singapore and Colombo.

Two deep ports are available on the west coast of india for larger vessels as well.
Hambantota is not designed for Container traffic. Colombo port is enough for that. Hambantota port is built to serve the shipping going along the East-West shipping lane and future industrial zone to be built around H'tota.
 

HeinzGud

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The US already has a military base close to India, China does not.

I believe there needs to be a clear explanation regarding the difirence between a US-Style Naval base and a port run by a foreign company. Because as I said before, Chinese companies do run comercial ports in the US itself.

I dont see Obama throwing fits about "Chinese Bases" on the US mainland.
Plus there is a US listing station located in Sri Lanka close to Tamilnadu.
 

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