India demands visas for professionals in the UK

Rage

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India demands visas for professionals in the UK

Monday, June 22, 2009 (21: 27 :19)




London: India's new Trade and Commerce Minister Anand Sharma said today rich countries must grant Indian professionals more visas as he pressed for a resumption of stalled global trade talks.

Sharma, who is in Britain for talks with his opposite number Peter Mandelson, told a gathering of prominent British and Indian businessmen the logjam in the so-called Doha Development Round of trade talks "must be broken". But he accused rich countries of erecting new trade barriers in response to the global recession.

"I am talking about new subsidies being introduced which were given up by countries, trade distorting measures being taken, professionals being refused visas, measures being introduced which are incompatible with the WTO," Sharma told a meeting of the Confederation of Indian Industries (CII).

"Protectionism is also when you do not have Indian doctors coming in freely, Indian nurses coming in freely, Indian IT professionals moving," he said, voicing a long-standing Indian demand for greater flexibility in allowing the temporary movement of skilled professionals.

Sharma, who was in the US for talks last week, said India had suggested a resumption of the trade talks based on the two existing draft documents on agriculture and manufacturing.

"I am happy to say...that has found positive endorsement," he said.
He said trade diplomats in Geneva had already begun initial discussions for a possible resumption of talks and that he was keen to see a "roadmap" and "some positive results" by the time the US plays host to a Group of 20 (G20) summit in Pittsburgh in September.

"There is much progress that has been made. The two draft reports should be used as the base documents for the resumption of negotiations. I also referred to countries negotiating to find a middle ground. It's not possible to get absolutely perfect solutions. What is definitely possible and achievable is a fair, honourable and equitable solution."

"Until the formal sector-specific discussions resume, our Ambassadors have already been advised in Geneva and we are talking. Beyond that I would not like to get into crystal gazing. I remain an optimist - that's all," he added.
Also present at the meeting were CII mentor Tarun Das, Lord Adair Turner, chairman of Britain's Financial Services Authority, CII president Venu Srinivasan and Indian High Commissioner Shiv Shankar Mukherjee and Richard Lambert, director general of the Confederation of British Industry.

Also present were Triveni Engineering and Industries chairman Dhruv M. Sawhney, HSBC country head for India Naina Lal Kidwai, Fortis group chairman Malvinder Mohan Singh, and TCS executive director Phiroz Vandrevala. (IANS)


http://www.headlinesindia.com/diaspora/diaspora/india-demands-visas-for-professionals-14964.html
 

Calanen

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London: India's new Trade and Commerce Minister Anand Sharma said today rich countries must grant Indian professionals more visas as he pressed for a resumption of stalled global trade talks.
Door swings both ways India. You must be an Indian citizen to practice law in India.
 

Daredevil

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Then what is the need for Indians to practice anything in the UK?
Because you don't have enough of their own capable of doing things. For example, the number of Indian trained doctors in NHS system of Britain. They don't have enough number of british trained doctors. Its simply an equation of supply and demand.
 

Calanen

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Because you don't have enough of their own capable of doing things. For example, the number of Indian trained doctors in NHS system of Britain. They don't have enough number of british trained doctors. Its simply an equation of supply and demand.
There is a demand for foreign trained lawyers in India as well. Supply and demand? But the demand cannot be met, so you have to have Indian lawyers pretending to be able to do the job, while foreigners offshore do the work, and Indian lawyers sign off on their work. Because if it was sent from an Indian firm, it would be a confused mash of bad English and the advice would probably be wrong, especially on international mergers. So a US or UK lawyer, asks all the questions, drills the Indian lawyer - drafts a nice, well prepared quality advice and gets the Indian lawyer to put his or her name to it.

So, if India is not prepared to grant foreigners from Magic Circle firms visas to practice law in India, then why should the UK grant more visas? Quid pro quo, or no go, I would say. But that's just me.
 

Daredevil

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There is a demand for foreign trained lawyers in India as well. Supply and demand? But the demand cannot be met, so you have to have Indian lawyers pretending to be able to do the job, while foreigners offshore do the work, and Indian lawyers sign off on their work. Because if it was sent from an Indian firm, it would be a confused mash of bad English and the advice would probably be wrong, especially on international mergers. So a US or UK lawyer, asks all the questions, drills the Indian lawyer - drafts a nice, well prepared quality advice and gets the Indian lawyer to put his or her name to it.

So, if India is not prepared to grant foreigners from Magic Circle firms visas to practice law in India, then why should the UK grant more visas? Quid pro quo, or no go, I would say. But that's just me.
Don't just make up things to prove your point. Please provide links to back-up. And also provide links for your claims that India has not provided visas for lawyers from so called Magic Circle firms. If you cannot do, desist from making comments.
 

Energon

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There is a demand for foreign trained lawyers in India as well. Supply and demand? But the demand cannot be met, so you have to have Indian lawyers pretending to be able to do the job, while foreigners offshore do the work, and Indian lawyers sign off on their work. Because if it was sent from an Indian firm, it would be a confused mash of bad English and the advice would probably be wrong, especially on international mergers. So a US or UK lawyer, asks all the questions, drills the Indian lawyer - drafts a nice, well prepared quality advice and gets the Indian lawyer to put his or her name to it.

So, if India is not prepared to grant foreigners from Magic Circle firms visas to practice law in India, then why should the UK grant more visas? Quid pro quo, or no go, I would say. But that's just me.
You do not have to be a citizen to practice law in India; all you need is an evaluation and approval of your basic course work and professional expertise by the bar council of India along with an approval by the state bar council for the intended area of practice.

India's BPO industry, a booming multi million dollar entity that seems to be growing at warp speed pretty much provides market based evidence that contradicts your misconceptions.
 

Calanen

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Don't just make up things to prove your point. Please provide links to back-up. And also provide links for your claims that India has not provided visas for lawyers from so called Magic Circle firms. If you cannot do, desist from making comments.

Nothing was made up. There is no link to real life, although you can find it outside your front door.

You cannot practice law as a non-citizen in India, that's part of your legislation. Citizens do not need visas. So there would be no point in getting a visa to practice, when you need citizenship to practice.

24. Persons who may be admitted as advocates on a State roll.-(1)
Subject to the provisions of this Act, and the rules made thereunder, a person shall be qualified to be admitted as an advocate on a State roll, if he fulfils the following conditions, namely:--

(a) he is a citizen of India:
---------------------------------------------------------------------
1. Subs. by Act 60 of 1973, s. 16, for sub-section (2) (w.e.f. 31-1-
1974).
2. Subs. by s. 17, ibid., for s. 22 (w.e.f. 31-1-1974).
3. Ins. by Act 47 of 1980, s. 3.4. Subs. by s. 3, ibid.

65.Provided that subject to the other provisions contained in this Act, a national of any other country may be admitted as an advocate on a
State roll, if citizens of India, duly qualified, are permitted to practise law in that other country;

(b) he has completed the age of twenty-one years;

(c) he has obtained a degree in law--

(i) before the 1*[12th day of March, 1967], from any University in the territory of India; or

(ii) before the 15th day of August, 1947, from any
University in any area which was comprised before that date within India as defined by the Government of India
Act, 1935; or

2*[(iii) after the 12th day of March, 1967, save as provided in sub-clause (iiia), after undergoing a three-year course of study in law from any University in India which is recognised for the purposes of this
Act by the Bar Council of India; or

(iiia) after undergoing a course of study in law, the duration of which is not less than two academic years commencing from the academic year 1967-68 or any earlier academic year from any University in India which is recognised for the purposes of this Act by the
Bar Council of India; or]

3*[(iv) in any other case, from any University outside the territory of India, if the degree is recognised for the purposes of this Act by the Bar
Council of India; or]

4*[he is a barrister and is called to the Bar on or before the 31st day of December, 1976; 5*[or has passed the article clerks examination or any other examination specified by the High Court at Bombay or
Calcutta for enrolment as an attorney of that High
Court;] or has obtained such other foreign qualification in law as is recognised by the Bar
Council of India for the purpose of admission as an advocate under this Act];

6* * * * *

(e) he fulfils such other conditions as may be specified in the rules made by the State Bar Council under this
Chapter;
---------------------------------------------------------------------
1. Subs. by Act 60 of 1973, s. 18, for "28th day of February, 1963"
(w.e.f. 31-1-1974).
2. Subs. by s. 18, ibid., for sub-clause (iii) (w.e.f. 31-1-1974).
3. Ins. by Act 21 of 1964, s. 13.4. Subs. by Act 60 of 1973, s. 18, for "he is a barrister" (w.e.f.
31-1-1974).
5. Ins. by Act 107 of 1976, s. 6 (w.e.f. 15-10-1976).
6. Cl. (d) omitted by Act 60 of 1973, s. 18 (w.e.f. 31-1-1974).

66.3*[(f) he has paid, in respect of the enrolment, stamp duty, if any, chargeable under the Indian Stamp Act, 1899 (2.of 1899), and an enrolment fee payable to the State Bar
Council of 2*[ six hundred rupees and to the Bar
Council of India, one hundred and fifty rupees by way of a bank draft drawn in favour of that Council:]

Provided that where such person is a member of the Scheduled
Castes or the Scheduled Tribes and produces a certificate to that effect from such authority as may be prescribed, the enrolment fee payable by him to the
State Bar Council shall be 2*[one hundred rupees and to the Bar Council of India, twenty-five rupees".]
http://www.helplinelaw.com/docs/THE...PTER III ADMISSION AND ENROLMENT OF ADVOCATES

Although there are various possible exceptions in the legislation, what it has meant in practice that there is very strong protectionism by Indians from permitting foreigners from practising law in India. That's fine, you have a right to do that. But do not expect others to open doors for you if you close them in their faces.

So the door swings both ways. Open up the rights of non-Indians to practice in the professions in India, if you want more visas in the west to practice. Only fair I'd think.

I am well qualified to speak about such things in real life, but I am loathe these days to say too much about real life on the internet, as in the past, I've had the odd weird stalker threaten to come kill me etc. So I'm a bit less forthcoming with information, than I might have been, once upon a time when the internet was a nicer place...
 

p2prada

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A foreign trained lawyer is not allowed to practice in India. His degrees will not be recognized. It's been in existence since 1961.
 

Known_Unknown

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Don't just make up things to prove your point. Please provide links to back-up. And also provide links for your claims that India has not provided visas for lawyers from so called Magic Circle firms. If you cannot do, desist from making comments.
It's true.

India?s ?Not for Sale? Legal Market Draws U.S., U.K. Law Firms - Bloomberg.com
Law.com - Still No Passage to India for Foreign Law Firms

However, the comparison is wrong. India is a developing country with a nascent industry (compared to European or US economies), whether it be pharmaceutical, legal or other sectors like telecommunications etc. We don't want another East India Company style strangulation of of domestic industry by much larger, financially resourceful foreign companies until Indian companies in all sectors are strong enough to compete on their own.

Besides, foreign firms are based in other countries, have their loyalties elsewhere and will cut and run at the first sign of trouble. Not so for Indian firms. So the legal market will also open, but in time, after Indian firms are strong enough to compete with foreign law firms on Indian as well as foreign turfs.
 

Daredevil

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Nothing was made up. There is no link to real life, although you can find it outside your front door.

You cannot practice law as a non-citizen in India, that's part of your legislation. Citizens do not need visas. So there would be no point in getting a visa to practice, when you need citizenship to practice.


CHAPTER III ADMISSION AND ENROLMENT OF ADVOCATES by India Bareacts - Indian Bare Acts - Law Firm - Lawyer - India Bare Acts - Indian Law Firms

Although there are various possible exceptions in the legislation, what it has meant in practice that there is very strong protectionism by Indians from permitting foreigners from practising law in India. That's fine, you have a right to do that. But do not expect others to open doors for you if you close them in their faces.

So the door swings both ways. Open up the rights of non-Indians to practice in the professions in India, if you want more visas in the west to practice. Only fair I'd think.

I am well qualified to speak about such things in real life, but I am loathe these days to say too much about real life on the internet, as in the past, I've had the odd weird stalker threaten to come kill me etc. So I'm a bit less forthcoming with information, than I might have been, once upon a time when the internet was a nicer place...
Fine, foreign-born people may not be allowed to practice law for whatever reasons. Out of so many professions this is one profession where the door may be one sided. What about other professions?. Is the door closed in those cases as well?.

You haven't provided the links for the issue of demand for foreign-trained lawyers in India. If there is no demand, the question of practicing doesn't arise?. Probably, if there is enough demand, India might open up. You see, again it boils down to demand and supply. You haven't shown that there is demand for foreign-born or -trained lawyers in India.
 

johnee

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India demands visas for professionals in the UK

Monday, June 22, 2009 (21: 27 :19)


London: India's new Trade and Commerce Minister Anand Sharma said today rich countries must grant Indian professionals more visas as he pressed for a resumption of stalled global trade talks.
Calanen,
read the article carefully. India's Trade and Commerce Minister has said that RICH countries shouldnt erect barriers. The same argument doestnt apply to developing or poor countries. And India is a developing country. So, your argument doesnt apply. India asks rich countries like Britain to grant visas to professionals.
 

Calanen

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Calanen,
read the article carefully. India's Trade and Commerce Minister has said that RICH countries shouldnt erect barriers. The same argument doestnt apply to developing or poor countries. And India is a developing country. So, your argument doesnt apply. India asks rich countries like Britain to grant visas to professionals.
__________________
So? He could have said 'rich countries' or 'countries with a Queen' or countries that start with 'U'. Still, if you want more visas, then you need to grant more visas. The door swings both ways, that's all I am saying. There are no convincing arguments for saying a 'developing country' needs to keep out professionals from other countries, while at the same time demanding that other countries let its professionals in. In fact one would think that a self-described 'developing country' could use the help of professionals from 'rich countries.'
 

Calanen

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You haven't provided the links for the issue of demand for foreign-trained lawyers in India. If there is no demand, the question of practicing doesn't arise?. Probably, if there is enough demand, India might open up. You see, again it boils down to demand and supply. You haven't shown that there is demand for foreign-born or -trained lawyers in India.
I worked in the area, I know what there is a demand for. It's not a question of links. It's a very specialised area, so I doubt there are 'links'. As I said earlier though, I am 'sharing' less on the internet these days, too many loonies.

And if there is no demand, as you say (with no experience and no knowledge of the area), surely it will not hurt to grant the visas because you lose nothing right?
 

Daredevil

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So? He could have said 'rich countries' or 'countries with a Queen' or countries that start with 'U'. Still, if you want more visas, then you need to grant more visas. The door swings both ways, that's all I am saying. There are no convincing arguments for saying a 'developing country' needs to keep out professionals from other countries, while at the same time demanding that other countries let its professionals in. In fact one would think that a self-described 'developing country' could use the help of professionals from 'rich countries.'
Can you show an instance where India blanket-banned Professionals from other countries working in India. We have foreign-born CEOs for many companies in India (mind you these are Indian owned companies not MNCs. For eg. till recently Wolfgang Prock- Schauer was CEO of Jet Airways). For instance, take the number of cricket coaches in IPL tournament. All most all of them are foreign-born, did India stop them from working?. Your arguments lack depth and you are resorting to very shallow arguments and clinging to just the lawyer issue, where you have not shown that there is actually a demand for them in India. In that case, its better you rest your case and stop making "swinging-door" arguments :D.
 

Calanen

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Your arguments lack depth and you are resorting to very shallow arguments and clinging to just the lawyer issue, where you have not shown that there is actually a demand for them in India. In that case, its better you rest your case and stop making "swinging-door" arguments
There is a demand for them, for every merger and IPO that happens which has an Indian presence. That would be, one or two wouldn't it? I worked in the industry, not much more I can tell you than that. Why is it shallow to say, if you wish to eat at my table, you must invite me to eat at yours?

I know about lawyers, which is why I am speaking of them. Doctors would not want to go to India and earn less pay. Neither would accountants, I'm guessing. Lawyers are a bit different because international cross-border mergers may have an Indian component, and then you tear your hair out trying to get an Indian local lawyer to do the work. IPOs as well with an Indian component. Also, multinationals with local workforces that want to standardize policies across the globe and include certain countries. Cross-border law is a very important area, and I know this because, I practised in it.
 

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There is a demand for them, for every merger and IPO that happens which has an Indian presence. That would be, one or two wouldn't it? I worked in the industry, not much more I can tell you than that. Why is it shallow to say, if you wish to eat at my table, you must invite me to eat at yours?

I know about lawyers, which is why I am speaking of them. Doctors would not want to go to India and earn less pay. Neither would accountants, I'm guessing. Lawyers are a bit different because international cross-border mergers may have an Indian component, and then you tear your hair out trying to get an Indian local lawyer to do the work. IPOs as well with an Indian component. Also, multinationals with local workforces that want to standardize policies across the globe and include certain countries. Cross-border law is a very important area, and I know this because, I practised in it.
You may or may not worked in such professional law firms and I have no way to authenticate that and with out any neutral links to demand of lawyers of foreign-origin in India, I have every reason to not believe you. I think we should move on from this issue unless you get those links.
 

johnee

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So? He could have said 'rich countries' or 'countries with a Queen' or countries that start with 'U'. Still, if you want more visas, then you need to grant more visas. The door swings both ways, that's all I am saying. There are no convincing arguments for saying a 'developing country' needs to keep out professionals from other countries, while at the same time demanding that other countries let its professionals in. In fact one would think that a self-described 'developing country' could use the help of professionals from 'rich countries.'
Developed countries, developing countries and poor countries have different needs and world expects them to play different roles. Your argument sounds good but is not practical. You cant ask India to play the same role as US(per say) or UK(per say). Our Commerce Minister said that India expects Developed countries to lead the way and not go back into their cocoons.
If and when India is a developed(rich) country, other nations would be justified in demanding that India open its market to foreign lawyers(or other professionals). Right now, India is still a developing nation with just 60 yrs of Independence. You cant compare India with a US or UK or some other similar nation.
 

Calanen

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You may or may not worked in such professional law firms and I have no way to authenticate that and with out any neutral links to demand of lawyers of foreign-origin in India, I have every reason to not believe you. I think we should move on from this issue unless you get those links.
Can you post a link that you exist? No? Maybe you don't then.

I don't care if you believe me or not. But just as a matter of common sense, a GLOBAL merger would need GLOBAL lawyers, including lawyers from India who would usually know nothing about how to merge the transaction into English or US law.

But what would I know - this is my fantasy after all. Reasonably intricate one. Just puting my call through to one of the Magic Circle firms...ring ring..Quick fellas they are onto me! No need to pretend to have the Cross Border Transactions Department anymore, close it down! They've figured out its just some random dude's fantasy on the internet!

Oh well, worth a try. Cant fool everyone I guess.
 

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