India China LAC & International Border Discussions

[JBH22]

You have not replied to my question about whether the Su25/34 have laser targeting pods and can use laser guided bombs. If the Su25 and Su34 have a self protection suite which can defeat 99% of Manpads then nobody should have any objection to using a low cost bomber for CAS. I am not against using the plane but we should not have a repeat of Kargil losses.

If course the battle between the Self Protection system on planes and helicopters and an adversary designing an VSHORADS to defeat it will continue. Whoever has the technological edge will dominate.

I did not say the plane can take 99percent of hits, but stressed on that for its CAS role it has been designed with greater survivability from Manpads or HMG.
Kargil losses if you see to MIG 21 it was shot by manpad, the MIG 27 engine flamed out while doing rocket attack and Canberra bomber took manpad hit but came back.
The SU 25 can launched missiles and other PGM. In regards to KAB 500L it is used by Su 30 mki.

 

[ARVION]

As per Defence Decode, the Indian Navy SSN programme design is very much inspired by the design of the Russian Navy Project 885M Graney class nuclear attack submarines.View attachment 52037

But heard that our SSN's are smaller in the realm of 5,000 tonnes instead of 7,000 tones

 

[Tridev123]

Both the su 25 can be used for both mission with smart home and dummy Bomb's and while the su 34 role is of a inductor and taticl bombing mission's the aircraft fly at higher speed so less time to react and few atgms and manpads that could target the aircraft flying at low altitude but at higher speed's

Without an effective Self Protection System too risky to depend only on speed to avoid heat seeking shoulder fired missile. Outcome will depend on the relative positions of the aircraft and the man firing the Manpads. Design an almost 100% safe System against Manpads and there will be no objections to low level bombing.

 

[Aniruddha Mulay]

We have a budget of 1,00,000 crores for attack hunter's submarines

That budget covers the cost of development and the construction of 6 nuclear attack submarines.

 

[Aniruddha Mulay]

But heard that our SSN's are smaller in the realm of 5,000 tonnes instead of 7,000 tones

6,000 tonnes to be exact.

 

[ARVION]

Without an effective Self Protection System too risky to depend only on speed to avoid heat seeking shoulder fired missile. Outcome will depend on the relative positions of the aircraft and the man firing the Manpads. Design an almost 100% safe System against Manpads and there will be no objections to low level bombing.

We could emphasize on the protection if the crew

 

[scatterStorm]

I’ve seen this video. It’s part of a test. In real world deployment, there are various other factors.

Hence asking someone with access to operation knowledge on this platform.

I've posted the image with missile just few foots from the ground.

1. That's at sea level skimming mode. Its so leathal that radars will have a hard time just finding it on the first place.
2. At mountain terrain, the trajectory of brahmos will be vertical lofty. If properly guides with mid course corrections, it can take the terrain advantage by passing through mountain passes, revealing itself at sharp vertical dive to the target.

The best possible way to use it is not at high altitudes, but following the terrain to its advantage. The only problem is, a good question could be, will speed be a problem at terrain?.

 

[ARVION]

That budget covers the cost of development and the construction of 6 nuclear attack submarines.

For SSN's 45,000 crores for Project 75 I 45,000 crore's and rest for second akula

 

[scatterStorm]

God not that crap. It's literally a sitting duck getting picked out one by one in the middle east

Wait a minute didn't we signed up for those Korean ones, considered much better than pantsir.

 

[ARVION]

Wait a minute didn't we signed up for those Korean ones, considered much better than pantsir.

But It was objected by the russian and they reduced the cost of the Pantsir by significant compared to the bhimo

 

[Tactical Frog]

That is why the sum paid for Apache could have got us couple of Su 25 squadrons. Porki armoured formation would be mince meat across desert. In Galwan valley these would kick ass. In Afghanistan they operated in similary terrain. Afghan would watch su 25 operate in valley take out their fortified position. Mi 24 would follow in and infantry mop up anything left.

The Afghans did not only watch ... according that unofficial list up to 12 Su-25 were shot down.

List of Soviet aircraft losses during the Soviet–Afghan War - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Tridev123]

I did not say the plane can take 99percent of hits, but stressed on that for its CAS role it has been designed with greater survivability from Manpads or HMG.
Kargil losses if you see to MIG 21 it was shot by manpad, the MIG 27 engine flamed out while doing rocket attack and Canberra bomber took manpad hit but came back.
The SU 25 can launched missiles and other PGM. In regards to KAB 500L it is used by Su 30 mki.

I believe the era of low level bombing by planes has gone and unless you can prove that such aircraft can successfully deflect Manpads the argument will not stand.
Helicopters mostly fly low compared to planes and will be vulnerable to Manpads.
Most of them have Self Protection Suites. Even the super expensive Apache faces a Manpads threat and they have counter measures system.

 

[scatterStorm]

But It was objected by the russian and they reduced the cost of the Pantsir by significant compared to the bhimo

I used to go gaga over Pantsir considering it thwarted tomahawks effectively during Syrian strikes, but once I seen them blowing up with Turkish drone strikes.

Mah lord.

 

[JBH22]

The Afghans did not only watch ... according that unofficial list up to 12 Su-25 were shot down.

List of Soviet aircraft losses during the Soviet–Afghan War - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

I never said it was invincible, but compare it to overall missile delivered and the list of casualty. The majority were caused by Chinese supplied HMG.

 

[ARVION]

I believe the era of low level bombing by planes has gone and unless you can prove that such aircraft can successfully deflect Manpads the argument will not stand.
Helicopters mostly fly low compared to planes and will be vulnerable to Manpads.
Most of them have Self Protection Suites. Even the super expensive Apache faces a Manpads threat and they have counter measures system.

Well that is but the use of guided bombs in large scale would not be a sustainable's

 

[ARVION]

I used to go gaga over Pantsir considering it thwarted tomahawks effectively during Syrian strikes, but once I seen them blowing up with Turkish drone strikes.

Mah lord.

Now they have developed an new variant's SM which is effective against the mid size drone like Turkish drones and dont work the turkish are liars like the pak's I never believed the turk propaganda

 

[Rajpal s]

Why every member is ignoring jaguar they are dedicated ground attack aircraft i have seen them flying even to 100 m height above my village.i thing in mountains the fighter aircraft needed to be subsonic so jaguar can do the job .

 

[JBH22]

Well that is but the use of guided bombs in large scale would not be a sustainable's

Our adversaries are large enough and we may have to contemplate attritional conflict, therefore as rightly pointed by you sustainability is key word. The use of dumb bombs to strike adversaries will remain primary thing. We cannot afford brahmos to take each and every target

 

[rockrocky]

 

[Bhadra]

This whole debate about Su-25 or Warthog Vs Apache is not being discussed properly. The Former are flying tanks packed with explosive typically meant for CAS and destruction of ground targets.

Apache are flying maneuver machines employed with ground components of maneuver force such as Mechanized Forces nor other mobile forces like motorized columns. These are used primarily against enemy maneuver elements / forces. Those are capable of being in the lead of the advance . stop enemy advances, provide flank protections. support attacks as also channelized enemy forces into killing grounds and capable of being leading recce elements. Apaches are capable of creating conditions for employment of friendly mechanized forces as also support another form of maneuver - vertical envelopment.

All other roles such as CAS. SEAD. CI/CT support. mountain warfare. extraction of won forces. recce and support are derivative tasks. That is why Apaches are primarily part of the ground elements.

Do not compare Su-25 or Warthogs with Apaches.