India China LAC & International Border Discussions

Status
Not open for further replies.

Lancer

Bana
Senior Member
Joined
Jan 17, 2019
Messages
1,447
Likes
5,876
Country flag
Another aspect that is purely military is that the PLA has found that while single children have better communication and computer skills than their peers with siblings, they are not as tough, they do not like intense training; they call in sick more frequently; and they struggle to perform some simple chores like doing their own laundry! Isolated incidents like listening to music while in combat practice which requires long periods of staying alert indicate that the fighting capability of such troops remains a strategic concern for PLA commanders.

For instance, the PLA army has devised special training for “spoiled boys and girls” to strengthen its fighting capability! A PLA conscript takes time to adjust to the training routine, unit culture and military environment. Therefore, even the numbers that China is left with do not reflect battle ready soldiers.




Extracts from: http://www.indiandefencereview.com/spotlights/chinas-one-child-policy-military-implications/
A less frequently mentioned aspect of this is, who would be ready to die for an authoritarian political party, in a completely unnecessary war, when they are the only child of their parents - with nobody else to care for them or carry forward their family tree?

That's got to play on the minds of many individuals. The sheer blatant disregard for self across ranks (and especially among young, freshly minted officers) can likely only be found in the voluntary Army (with a very old and proud tradition) of a Democratic nation which mainly sticks to fighting defensive, righteous wars that are truly meant for defending the nation, its people and its way of life.
 

SRao

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2020
Messages
88
Likes
96
Country flag
With all this attention at the borders, where is LAC at Pangong lake?
 

Nietzche_Z

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 4, 2019
Messages
49
Likes
245
Country flag
With all this attention at the borders, where is LAC at Pangong lake?
Historically - According to India our control is till finger 4 and claim line till finger 8. Chinese control till finger 8 and claim line till finger 4. So the grey area is between finger 4-8.


1591396770091.png

During Kargil - China built a metalled road till finger 4 and have a base and boat jetty at finger 5. So the chinese have established and today control till finger 4.

Our troops normally patrol from finger 4 till finger 8. The chinese have stopped these foot patrols. Which is the contention at pangong lake.

The video here with Nikhil Gokhale and Col.S.Dinny clarifies everything wrt to the lake. The Col used to be the area commander for that area. I would suggest watching it.

 

SRao

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2020
Messages
88
Likes
96
Country flag
Historically - According to India our control is till finger 4 and claim line till finger 8. Chinese control till finger 8 and claim line till finger 4. So the grey area is between finger 4-8.


View attachment 49455
During Kargil - China built a metalled road till finger 4 and have a base and boat jetty at finger 5. So the chinese have established and today control till finger 4.

Our troops normally patrol from finger 4 till finger 8. The chinese have stopped these foot patrols. Which is the contention at pangong lake.

The video here with Nikhil Gokhale and Col.S.Dinny clarifies everything wrt to the lake. The Col used to be the area commander for that area. I would suggest watching it.

So, in reality, our LAC is at Finger4. We only "Actually Control" till the "Line" at F4. F8 is just an LDC, a "Line of Desired Control"- it is a line till which we have no control, but would like to have one. Similarly, till recently, F4 was only an LDC for the chinese, but now they have made it the new LAC for themselves. Which means that F4 is the sole LAC now, for all practical purposes, for both sides. Until the chinese are generous enough, or foolish enough to go back to their original LAC.
 

Rudy123

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 14, 2019
Messages
139
Likes
344
Country flag
India claims upto finger 8 but China claims upto finger 4.
Road built by china upto finger 4 from their highway G219 i.e. Chinese side.
We have our own road upto finger 4 where ITBP camp is located.
Before this brawl, India and China both patrol between finger 4 and finger 8 but not cross LAC perceived by them.
Tension started in panong tso lake when Chinese stop Indian patrol upto finger 8, which happened after Galawan valley scenario.
Lake seeing most tension rather than Galawan (which is flashpoint) because of better connectivity for Chinese .
Good road in panong tso makes it auto car expo venue to show their shiny toys which rather cannot reach other areas in Ladakh.
This is still true which I said before Mr Panag fiasco
 

Bhadra

Professional
Joined
Jul 11, 2011
Messages
11,991
Likes
23,758
Country flag
India China Border Personnel Meeting : 06 Jun 2020
While I put down these lines, Lt Gen Harinder Singh, Corps Commander, 14 Corps. a jovial, balanced, and intelligent Sikh Officer of Marath Regiment. would be flying towards Chusul. Just a day prior to That. India and China have engaged with each other at diplomatic levels to exchange sweet diplomatic language and convey they should cool down as per wishes of their leaders and genuine demand.

Backhome, anti-Modi lobby has been busy collecting old Durbari war-horses to squarely blame Modi and his sense of resurgence nationalism as the cause of current Standoff. Old Congress die hard hogs like Prem Shankar Jha have even gone to the extent of being apologetic and reminding us how India started the War in 1962 quoting Handerson Brooke report and Maxwell. He has then tried to veer around to prove how Indian closeness to US led policies and Modi's sense of bravado is akin to Nehrus's stubbornness. And the present standoff has been invited by Modi by not bending backwards to play to the Chinese tunes.

The wire as always has published two hit pieces by that old die hard Durbari :


and have a look at this piece -




So what PS Jha is essentially advocating is that India can not afford to follow an independent foreign policy and align her interests with powers inimical to China. India should play a second fiddle to China who are hell-bent on undermining India's national interest at every step - UN. NSP, Terrorism, Energy, Pakistan, Nepal, economic impression. It is strange that PS Jha has not forgotten all alleged misdeeds and misdemeanor of Modi but has not mentioned even at a single place how China has been single-pointedly undermining India at every level.

So I can foresee what is going to happen at the meeting.
 

Nietzche_Z

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 4, 2019
Messages
49
Likes
245
Country flag
So, in reality, our LAC is at Finger4. We only "Actually Control" till the "Line" at F4. F8 is just an LDC, a "Line of Desired Control"- it is a line till which we have no control, but would like to have one. Similarly, till recently, F4 was only an LDC for the chinese, but now they have made it the new LAC for themselves. Which means that F4 is the sole LAC now, for all practical purposes, for both sides. Until the chinese are generous enough, or foolish enough to go back to their original LAC.
We need to check where the border was in 1962 before the war. What was it after the war and what our claim lines were historically .e.g. in 1947 our claim lines were far east covering Aksai chin. So we have been rolled back consistently over a period of time. It seems that we may have redefined our claim lines over a period of time moving back while the chinese may have redefined it moving forward (westward) as they have now.

For eg. till 1999 (during kargil) the chinese were at Finger 8 and India at finger 4 , the chinese metalled the kuchha road from finger 8 till finger 4. We were patrolling in the grey area between finger 4-> finger 8 and the chinese from finger 8 -> finger 4. Now 20 yrs later they are preventing our patrols from going forward beyond finger 4. The reality might be that the LAC may have been at finger 8 say before 1999 or even further east between 1962-1999. We do know for sure that at 1947 - 1962 we were far further east covering Aksai chin which we lost in 1962. Our claims don't need to change just because the chinese are where they are today. What was illegally acquired and through force is still illegal just because time has moved on. We must never forget that our claim lines at the Aksai chin border. So its not losing a few sq kms between finger 4-8 but the thousands that we have lost since 1962 in that area. The chinese behaviour is consistent they are pushing us back consistently over decades. They also refuse to actually agree to the border which means their intentions are suspect. Their claims may actually be over all of ladakh which might be their ultimate goal. If we are not going to push back with serious costs to the chinese then this slow motion aggression will continue nibbling away at our territory.
 

SRao

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2020
Messages
88
Likes
96
Country flag
We need to check where the border was in 1962 before the war. What was it after the war and what our claim lines were historically .e.g. in 1947 our claim lines were far east covering Aksai chin. So we have been rolled back consistently over a period of time. It seems that we may have redefined our claim lines over a period of time moving back while the chinese may have redefined it moving forward (westward) as they have now.

For eg. till 1999 (during kargil) the chinese were at Finger 8 and India at finger 4 , the chinese metalled the kuchha road from finger 8 till finger 4. We were patrolling in the grey area between finger 4-> finger 8 and the chinese from finger 8 -> finger 4. Now 20 yrs later they are preventing our patrols from going forward beyond finger 4. The reality might be that the LAC may have been at finger 8 say before 1999 or even further east between 1962-1999. We do know for sure that at 1947 - 1962 we were far further east covering Aksai chin which we lost in 1962. Our claims don't need to change just because the chinese are where they are today. What was illegally acquired and through force is still illegal just because time has moved on. We must never forget that our claim lines at the Aksai chin border. So its not losing a few sq kms between finger 4-8 but the thousands that we have lost since 1962 in that area. The chinese behaviour is consistent they are pushing us back consistently over decades. They also refuse to actually agree to the border which means their intentions are suspect. Their claims may actually be over all of ladakh which might be their ultimate goal. If we are not going to push back with serious costs to the chinese then this slow motion aggression will continue nibbling away at our territory.
The "A" in LAC is what determines where the current LAC is. It is now at F4. A bitter fact. And this is because chinese have occupied F4-F8, and have made F4 their LAC also. Once we accept this, we can start counter-action to make F8 the LAC once again for the chinese, leaving the area between F4-F8 as fuzzy- basically restore the earlier status. If we dont even agree that chinese have done this slyly, and beat each other up saying India is great, nothing has changed anywhere, etc. etc. I dont think a strong united voice can be generated to push the enemy back. Chinese must be laughing at Indians like Shukla and Iyer go at each other with such vehemence, instead of turning their combined focus onto the enemy.
 

Bhadra

Professional
Joined
Jul 11, 2011
Messages
11,991
Likes
23,758
Country flag
India China Border Personnel Meeting : 06 Jun 2020

So it is the third meeting.
The level is Corps commander raised from the level of Brigade Commander.
What is supposed the issue? Intrusion on LAC and efforts to undermine the status quo.
Is it a military Issue - Apparently it looks like and has been made to look like since the military has been used as a tool.
Could that been solved by the Brigade Commander and Divisional commanders - Yes very much if the issue was intrusion and military situation.
Why Raise the levels - Simply to convey that the issue is bigger.
Why Diplomatic Exchange between JS Level before the Meeting - To convey that the issue probably are nonmilitary and needs settlement at higher levels. Secondly. diplomats do not tolerate military commanders conducting diplomacy to solve issues that can not fall in the ambit of matters military.
What has been Indian Signals - By signing agreements with Australia just in the midst of this crisis the Indian signals are unambiguous. India is determined to face Chinese bullying squarely and determiningly.
What is the likely briefs to the two Corps commenders
Chinese will insist on the Indian side accepting the changed status of LAC and stop infrastructure development including at Lipulekh.
The Indian side will insist on the restoration of status quo ante and their right to develop infrastructure.

Likely Outcome;

Chinese dirty tea and flour biscuits will be served. Indian Corps Commander will present some very fine Indian whiskey and Indian Old Monk Rum to his counterpart and the Chinese side will give very dirty smelling unpalatable liquor/wine bottles.

Both sides will agree to disagree and prepare for a long haul.

Chinese have taken this gamble not to solve the military issue but to enlarge and magnify the issue. The issues are clearly and unambiguously larger centered around the international diplomacy.

The Chinese have been able to time it well and taken military advantages of the Corona crisis and the India side having stalled their further march would remain busy in nullifying the Chinese military gains. if any.
 

Cartel Boss

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 16, 2020
Messages
141
Likes
625
Country flag
India should have defensive deployment on the eastern border with Tibet, enough to hold off Chinese incursions. And, continue with its offensive against Pakistan on the western border. The ultimate objective should be to capture G&B.
 

Nietzche_Z

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 4, 2019
Messages
49
Likes
245
Country flag
The "A" in LAC is what determines where the current LAC is. It is now at F4. A bitter fact. And this is because chinese have occupied F4-F8, and have made F4 their LAC also. Once we accept this, we can start counter-action to make F8 the LAC once again for the chinese, leaving the area between F4-F8 as fuzzy- basically restore the earlier status. If we dont even agree that chinese have done this slyly, and beat each other up saying India is great, nothing has changed anywhere, etc. etc. I dont think a strong united voice can be generated to push the enemy back. Chinese must be laughing at Indians like Shukla and Iyer go at each other with such vehemence, instead of turning their combined focus onto the enemy.
View attachment 49461
This map shows at high level what has happened historically - a microaggression in 1957 where the chinese built the tibet - xinjiang highway , a major aggression in 1962 pushing us back even further and establishing claim over all of aksai chin. And now they are repeating more micro-aggressions in the current standoff at galwan and pangoing tso in ladakh.

As far as Col Shukla , Iyer et al arguing with vehemence - its the rage of the impotent and trying to score political points for their respective masters and you are correct the chinese must be laughing their asses off. Instead of increasing the temperatures in TV studios we must be increasing the temperature at the border for the PLA. This will come at a cost for us...there will be Indian blood spilt. So far successive Indian govts have not shown the strength or the will to push back and push back hard with every micro-aggression and transgression being met with overwhelming force come what may. Perhaps only when a million chinese bodies lie rotting on the plains of aksai chin will zhongnanhai come to its senses. Our costs will obviously be proportional. I am not sure we are ready for that.

1591408186150.png
 
Last edited:

Bhadra

Professional
Joined
Jul 11, 2011
Messages
11,991
Likes
23,758
Country flag
View attachment 49461
This map shows at high level what has happened historically - a microaggression in 1957 where the chinese built the tibet - xinjiang highway , a major aggression in 1962 pushing us back even further and establishing claim over all of aksai chin. And now they are repeating more micro-aggressions in the current standoff at galwan and pangoing tso in ladakh.

As far as Col Shukla , Iyer et al arguing with vehemence - its the rage of the impotent and trying to score political points for their respective masters and you are correct the chinese must be laughing their asses off. Instead of increasing the temperatures in TV studios we must be increasing the temperature at the border for the PLA. This will come at a cost for us...there will be Indian blood spilt. So far successive Indian govts have not shown the strength or the will to push back and push back hard with every micro-aggression and transgression being met with overwhelming force come what may. Perhaps only when a million chinese bodies lie rotting on the plains of aksai chin will zhongnanhai come to its senses. Our costs will obviously be proportional. I am not sure we are ready for that.

View attachment 49460
Let us start from 1947 and much prior to that from General Zorawar Singh and even the travel of Huen Tsang.
 

Cartel Boss

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 16, 2020
Messages
141
Likes
625
Country flag
I do not think the Chinese incursion has anything to do with India building road in Galwan. It has more to do with relieving pressure from Pakistan. India through its preemptive actions has severely restricted Pakistanese ability to cause mischief. This sort of spoils the duo's design against India. Not only that, we on this forum have been discussing taking back G&B. I think this has spooked China big time.
 

Sridhar_TN

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2019
Messages
822
Likes
2,217
Country flag
I do not think the Chinese incursion has anything to do with India building road in Galwan. It has more to do with relieving pressure from Pakistan. India through its preemptive actions has severely restricted Pakistanese ability to cause mischief. This sort of spoils the duo's design against India. Not only that, we on this forum have been discussing taking back G&B. I think this has spooked China big time.
The Chinese military is not taking action because they saw a bunch of people message on dfi about taking back gb or Aksai chin.
Please.
 

Bhadra

Professional
Joined
Jul 11, 2011
Messages
11,991
Likes
23,758
Country flag
I do not think the Chinese incursion has anything to do with India building road in Galwan. It has more to do with relieving pressure from Pakistan. India through its preemptive actions has severely restricted Pakistanese ability to cause mischief. This sort of spoils the duo's design against India. Not only that, we on this forum have been discussing taking back G&B. I think this has spooked China big time.
China has been fighting with India via Pakistan for long while remaining aloof.

India now is trying to challenge in one to one competition.... others have started cheering India some even ready to perform as seconds...

Pakistan out of the ring to second China and wipe off Chinese sweat and blood..
 

Cartel Boss

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 16, 2020
Messages
141
Likes
625
Country flag
China has been fighting with India via Pakistan for long while remaining aloof.

India now is trying to challenge in one to one competition.... others have started cheering India some even ready to perform as seconds...

Pakistan out of the ring to second China and wipe off Chinese sweat and blood..
I personally think that India needs to come up with a strategy to take back G&B. It is an Indian territory after all. If Chinese military buildup is an issue. Then India should adopt slightly unorthodox approach. The campaign should occur during the winter. Instead of going for G&B directly, India should go for Sindh. Then use Sindh to barter with Pakistan on G&B.
 

Craigs

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 22, 2016
Messages
1,398
Likes
3,374
Country flag
View attachment 49461
This map shows at high level what has happened historically - a microaggression in 1957 where the chinese built the tibet - xinjiang highway , a major aggression in 1962 pushing us back even further and establishing claim over all of aksai chin. And now they are repeating more micro-aggressions in the current standoff at galwan and pangoing tso in ladakh.

As far as Col Shukla , Iyer et al arguing with vehemence - its the rage of the impotent and trying to score political points for their respective masters and you are correct the chinese must be laughing their asses off. Instead of increasing the temperatures in TV studios we must be increasing the temperature at the border for the PLA. This will come at a cost for us...there will be Indian blood spilt. So far successive Indian govts have not shown the strength or the will to push back and push back hard with every micro-aggression and transgression being met with overwhelming force come what may. Perhaps only when a million chinese bodies lie rotting on the plains of aksai chin will zhongnanhai come to its senses. Our costs will obviously be proportional. I am not sure we are ready for that.

View attachment 49460
Why are we spending so much cycles debating about a few kms in Galwan etc. Just push on and take whole of Aksai Chin back. Send the bill to the Congress party.
 

Bhadra

Professional
Joined
Jul 11, 2011
Messages
11,991
Likes
23,758
Country flag
Congratulations DFI...

I see many of the media spokespeople that appear on TV to fill the chairs and raise their hands as they are masqueraded as experts speak what appears in this forum on some important issues.....

I do not know why some people expose themselves so badly...
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Latest Replies

Global Defence

New threads

Articles

Top