India China LAC & International Border Discussions

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vampyrbladez

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Mangement of LAC with China is the responsibility of ITBP and no (i repat No) army is deployed on LAC (may 5-10 km behind yes). Of one does not know that he has no right to comment on such an issue. ITBP Frontier Leh has 13 battalions under their ORBAT. Care to tell me where are those ?

11 division of LAC ?? What the hell is that ? Tinsukhia is LAC or is Tenga LAC ? Some people never improve... is Tangtse on LAC ??

1.5 Div of Chinese?? I believe more than that is in Ladakh only.

it seems your military family has not taught you well.
That is as per deployment capability. Terms of engagement of an aggressor needs to be atleast 1:5 for victory. Chinese don't have that many surrounding troops.

Their nearest air base at Ngari Gunsa is being rapidly upgraded for this purpose.





https://greatgameindia.com/satellite-images-show-expanding-chinese-airbase-near-ladakh/amp/

By comparison, IAF's airbases have land links and have assets nearby.

 

hit&run

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Look sir, I do not expect it from you, You are instituting things which he never wrote andcsaid:

He has suggested that :

" Be that as it may, we have the capability and the will to stare China down and force it to blink. Neither country wants war, hence diplomacy has to be given the first priority to restore status quo ante 1 April 2020. However, if diplomacy does not work, then India should be prepared for border skirmishes and even a limited war.

Last but not the least, once the status quo has been restored, we must hold the Narendra Modi government and the military accountable for the intelligence failure, the loss of territory, if any, that has taken place, and the asymmetry with respect to our capability vis-a vis China. "

Let us not do character assassination to refute facts and arguments.
If you can not see a problem with above paragraph then I am not going to indulge further in this discussion.
How he knows China does not want war?
Have they paid him some cash to speak for them?
What character assassination? He is a politician openly running political agenda.
Look at the audacity and his patronising tone.
“Once stays quo has been restored”
Wah ustaad wah
Blame India for breaching status quo.
Put onus on India to bring back status quo.
Invent imaginary intelligence failure, convict Modi for it already, and then hold him accountable once China wins.
I am sorry you are being unreasonable here.
 
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Bhadra

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Satellite imagery has already proven him and his band of dolts wrong but they keep harping about an imaginary incursion that never took place.
His question to that is also apt ...
If nothing has happened then what is this hallablue, why is Nepal Jumping, Why is Pakistan jumping... why is trump jumping,, why is Army quite... why are the media-loving ITBP quite ...what is the hurry... why fly the fighters ??

If OSINT is everything then why have billion-dollar R&AW and IB ??
 

vampyrbladez

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Now that is another bullshit...
Actionable intelligence is shared by Intelligence operative on ground.... the SB chap is instructed to do that..
Even if the intelligence has to trickle down it takes only two days..
This build-up appears to have taken over months...
Not really. China has diverted 5000 troops from a military exercise. They also have 1200-1500 troops near LAC.

Our mirror deployment stopped their acupuncture strategy. Ironically Gen. M.M. Naravane had discussed this in a War College presentation in 2012.

The first would be the domination-cum-deterrence (DCD) phase where the People’s Liberation Army (PLA) would focus on building up its presence in the territory in question to deter the enemy. In the second phase, Gaining Initiative by Striking First (GISF), it would deploy rapid reaction units to strike first to wrest the initiative from the enemy. The last stage is the Quick Battle Quick Resolution where the PLA would use a dedicated division level force. But the PLA, the senior army officer said in his seminal paper published in Scholar Warrior, a journal published by the Delhi-based think tank Center For Land Warfare Studies, expects to achieve its objective in the first two phases.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.hind...-sector/story-OsfNk1vmIWOQHHNGHGzHcI_amp.html
 

Major Sahab RR

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The general has written in open platform.
I am only asking to refute that logically without considering him an Apard.
That is all.
Respected Sir, will you please bother to enlighten me what ground breaking affirmation he has made in his article apart from 40-60, geopolitical history of Ladakh, blaming Modi, Army so on, which you are repeatedly calling to refute. Seems Panag directly getting inputs from PLA headquarters.
 

Bhadra

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If you can not see a problem with above paragraph then I am not going to indulge further in this discussion.
How he knows China does not want war?
Have they paid him some cash to speak for them?
What character assassination? He is a politician openly running political agenda.
Look at the audacity and his patronising tone.
“Once stays quo has been restored”
Wah ustaad wah
Blame India for breach status quo.
Put onus on India to bring back status quo.
Invent imaginary intelligence failure, convict Modi for it already, and then hold him accountable once China wins.
I am sorry you are being unreasonable here.
I do not know who is history going to prove right ? You or general Panag... Let us see.

But why can not you answer his question - Why is ITBP independent of Army in spite of manning such a sensitive border ? If every shit has to fall on Army, why are they not in the loop ?
Very simple questions... no politics involved. Expertise in English would not suffice...
 

geoBR

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India, China teeter toward a border clash

https://asiatimes.com/2020/05/india-and-china-on-border-war-course/

Both sides have sent reinforcements to disputed Ladakh line, as Beijing flexes its muscles around Asia

By PEPE ESCOBAR

MAY 27, 2020



It would be counter-productive for BRICS and Shanghai Cooperation Organization members India and China to come to blows on account of some extremely remote – albeit strategically important – snowy mountain passes.

But when one looks at the 3,488-kilometer-long Line of Actual Control, which India defines as “unresolved,” that can never be totally ruled out.

As the Hindustan Times reported: “India has pushed in high altitude warfare troops with support elements to the eastern Ladakh theater to counter [the] Chinese People’s Liberation Army’s aggressive posture designed to browbeat the government to stop building border infrastructure in the Daulat Beg Oldie sector as it may threaten the Lhasa-Kashgar highway in Aksai Chin.”

The highway runs from Tibet to southwestern Xinjiang Province, where the Karakoram Highway – the northern part of the China-Pakistan Economic Corridor – goes from Kashgar to Islamabad. Thence a road heads through Balochistan to Pakistan’s strategic Gwadar port, as part of China’s Belt and Road Initiative.

“The specialized Indian troops are familiar with the Tibetan Autonomous Region of China and are tuned for operating at rarefied altitudes,” Hindustan Times reports. “The scale of PLA deployment – two brigades’ strength and more – indicates that the move has the sanction of Beijing and [is] not limited to local military commanders.”

None other than Donald Trump has offered to mediate.

The current flare-up started building in late April, and led to a series of scuffles in early May, described as “aggressive behavior on both sides,” complete with fistfights and stone throwing. The Indian version is that Chinese troops crossed the Line of Actual Control (LAC), with vehicles and equipment, to block road construction by India.

The key area is around a spectacular 135 kilometer-long, 5-7 kilometer-wide lake, Pangong Tso. It’s in Ladakh, which is a de facto extension of the Tibetan plateau. One third is held by India and two thirds by China.

Mountain folds around the lake are called “fingers.” The Indians say Chinese troops are close to Finger Two – and blocking their movements. India claims territorial rights up to Finger 8, but its de facto holding extends only to Finger 4.

New Delhi has been steadily expanding infrastructure development – and also troop deployments – in Ladakh for nearly a decade. Units now spend longer periods deployed along the LAC than the six months that used to be the standard rotation.

These are called loop battalions: They do a back and forth with the Siachen glacier – which was the theatre of a localized India-Pakistan mini-war in 1999 that I followed closely.

The Indians maintain there are no fewer than 23 “disputed and sensitive” areas along the LAC, with at least 300 “transgressions” by People’s Liberation Army troops every year.

Crossing the line
The Indians are now particularly focused on the situation in the Galwan valley in Ladakh, which they maintain was breached to a distance of 3 to 4 km by PLA troops now in the process of digging defenses.

Diplomatically, it’s all pretty hazy. The Chinese Ministry of Foreign Affairs accused Indian troops of “crossing the line” in both Ladakh and Sikkim, as well as “attempting to unilaterally change the status of border control.”

The Indian Foreign Ministry has preferred to maintain that “established mechanisms” should prevail in the end, justifying its relative silence with the explanation that quiet diplomacy between military commanders and officials must take precedence.

That’s in stark contrast with what Indian sources on the ground are stressing: face-off between troops in at least three points in Ladakh and Sikkim; too many Chinese troops at LAC areas patrolled by India; and blocking of Indian patrols in finger areas on the Pangong Tso.

Interestingly, Indian defense sources deny there’s a Chinese troop buildup across the middle sector of the LAC, in Uttarakhand; they see what would qualify as routine “local movements.”



It’s significant that a former Northern Army commander told The Hindu, “Normally stand-offs happen in a local area, but are resolved at the local level.” That pretty much sums up the whole state of affairs along the India-China border and also the India-Pakistan border.

Yet now, added the commander, there seems to be a “higher level in China” in terms of planning, so the skirmishes should be handled diplomatically. Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi is reviewing the current LAC situation.

Beijing has been mostly quiet about it. Yet the Global Times seems to be distilling the predominant Chinese narrative: India’s poor “are facing an increasingly severe threat of famine.

“Against such a backdrop, it is conceivable that hyping border tensions at this juncture will flare up nationalist sentiment and increase domestic hostility toward Chinese capital, putting unnecessary pressure on bilateral trade and dealing a further blow to the Indian economy already plagued by downturn woes.”

Global Times insists China “clearly has no intention of escalating the border disputes with India,” and prefers to stress the “overall improvement” of their “bilateral economic and trade ties.”

The usual divide-and-rule suspects, for their part, prefer to speculate on the possibility of an India-China LAC mini-war. That’s not likely to happen.

Indian National Security Advisor Ajit Doval and Chinese Foreign Minister Wang Yi, billed as special representatives of India and China, met face to face for the last time in December 2019, discussing an “early settlement of the boundary question.” It looks like they will soon have to meet again.

Asia Times Financial is now live. Linking accurate news, insightful analysis and local knowledge with the ATF China Bond 50 Index, the world's first benchmark cross sector Chinese Bond Indices. Read ATF now.
 

vampyrbladez

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I do not know who is history going to prove right ? You or general Panag... Let us see.

But why can not you answer his question - Why is ITBP independent of Army in spite of manning such a sensitive border ? If every shit has to fall on Army, why are they not in the loop ?
Very simple questions... no politics involved. Expertise in English would not suffice...
ITBP's job is to hold the line till IA relieves them. Kind of the same arrangement as with BSF at the LoC.
 

Bhadra

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Not really. China has diverted 5000 troops from a military exercise. They also have 1200-1500 troops near LAC.

Our mirror deployment stopped their acupuncture strategy. Ironically Gen. M.M. Naravane had discussed this in a War College presentation in 2012.



https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.hind...-sector/story-OsfNk1vmIWOQHHNGHGzHcI_amp.html
Whenever such big exercises take place opposite, our Army units are alerted. Now those troop when headed for LAC take time to reach forward areas and build up logistics and heavy equipment over 100 -150 kms.

Was Army alerted for such a movements. If yes, I say hang that man who failed to take adequate precaution... even if he is Northen Army Commander.

Tell me = was intelligence provided ??
 

Shashank Nayak

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Now that is another bullshit...
Actionable intelligence is shared by Intelligence operative on ground.... the SB chap is instructed to do that..
Even if the intelligence has to trickle down it takes only two days..
This build-up appears to have taken over months...
What if that is India's way.. and Modi did not want a counter build up, until it was too late..
 

vampyrbladez

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Whenever such big exercises take place opposite, our Army units are alerted. Now those troop when headed for LAC take time to reach forward areas and build up logistics and heavy equipment over 100 -150 kms.

Was Army alerted for such a movements. If yes, I say hang that man who failed to take adequate precaution... even if he is Northen Army Commander.

Tell me = was intelligence provided ??
Have you seen roads and infrastructure on the Chinese side Sir? Until the last 5 years GoI was under ostrich syndrome.

They have rail networks that can push units right to our border. So diverting units from a military exercise overnight is nothing for them.
 

Bhadra

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ITBP's job is to hold the line till IA relieves them. Kind of the same arrangement as with BSF at the LoC.
Do not twist things... do go in circles..
Army gets deployed on receipt of Warning Orders or orders from top. Till War is declared ITBP does not come under command. Such is the system..

But if ITBP was under command then it becomes Army's responsibility to take over from ITBP as and when required. When under command Army is reported to about all activities... In that case whatever happens on border is "responsibility" of Army....

But in the present case, I think ITBP had it royally... IG NW Frontier ITBP must have proceeded in leave... rather than going to Galwan.
 

Shashank Nayak

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anyone heard of this before?
=======
Even as the Central government has never admitted it, #China had occupied 640 sq km of Indian territory in Eastern #Ladakh during the second term of the #UPA regime under Prime Minister #ManmohanSingh.

So.. So Indians need to thankful that it is not as large as 640 sq km.. that China has occupied..
 

geoBR

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India, China go toe-to-toe in New Cold War

https://asiatimes.com/2020/05/india-china-go-toe-to-toe-in-new-cold-war/

New border tensions revive 1962 China-India war memories but this time US firmly in Delhi's camp

By BERTIL LINTNER

MAY 28, 2020



When Chinese President Xi Jinping ordered his People’s Liberation Army (PLA) to “think about worst-case scenarios” and “scale up battle preparedness” in order to “resolutely defend the country’s sovereignty”, it was an unusually belligerent message directed at neighboring India.

Xi’s May 26 statement was made during his annual meeting with military representatives attending the National People’s Congress in Beijing. The Chinese leader was clearly referring to the recent escalation of tensions along the nearly 3,500-kilometer Line of Actual Control (LAC) between India and China.

But despite Xi’s tough rhetoric and both nations’ mounting deployments of thousands of troops to mountainous areas where the two sides now confront each other, few military observers believe a repeat of the two Asian giants fateful 1962 war is in the offing.

Then, India and China fought a bitter war over a still contested boundary which saw massive Chinese attacks stretching from Kashmir in the west to the eastern Himalaya. Those battles ended in a humiliating defeat for India that clearly demonstrated China’s military superiority.

Fast forward to the present, India’s military is far better equipped and prepared for various contingencies than it was the last time the two rivals traded fire along their contested border. Rising economic integration driven by raising trade over the interceding decades has also mitigated the risk of a full-blown conflict.

The recent escalation in tensions was sparked when Indian and Chinese soldiers came to physical blows near a border pass in Sikkim in early May. The tussle was reportedly started when Chinese troops shouted out to Indian forces that Sikkim is not India’s territory and that they should leave the area.

Seven Chinese and four Indians were reportedly injured in the fisticuffs but no shots were fired.

The mountains of Ladakh, an Indian union territory carved out of the former state of Jammu and Kashmir in August 2019, became the next hotspot. To improve connectivity along its sometimes volatile frontiers, India is building new roads in the area which, according to Indian sources, are located ten kilometers from the LAC.




China contests India’s interpretation of the LAC’s location and views the roadworks as a potential threat to its hold over the remote border territory, including the strategic highway it built from Kashgar in western Xinjiang to Tibet’s capital Lhasa in the mid-1950s to connect the two outlying and often restive ethnically diverse areas.

That highway runs through an area called Aksai Chin, which is controlled by China but is identified as Indian territory on Indian maps. Indian media have reported that Chinese soldiers have in recent days intruded as far as three kilometers into India-controlled territory.

In response to what Beijing sees as “Indian provocations”, the Global Times, a Chinese communist party mouthpiece, has recently published several unusually strongly worded reports and editorials on the border issue.

On May 18, it accused India of being responsible for “illegal construction of defense facilities across the border into Chinese territory in the Galwan valley” in Ladakh. Penned by anonymous “GT reporters”, the article also stated that “if India escalates the friction, the Indian military force could pay a heavy price.”

The article was followed by a stronger editorial line on May 25 which accused Indian soldiers of having “deliberately instigated conflicts with their Chinese counterparts” and that “although China’s relationship with the US is tense, the international environment for China is much better than it was in 1962 when India started and [was] crushingly defeated in a border war with China. In 1962, the national strength of China and India were comparable. Today by stark contrast, China’s GDP is about five times that of India.”

Few historians would agree with the Global Times’ assertion that India started the 1962 war. Nor was that war entirely about contested border regions.

The prevailing narrative for many years was based on a book entitled “India’s China War”, published in 1970 and written by Neville Maxwell, an Anglo-Australian journalist. He argued that India provoked the war by setting up new military outposts along the disputed border in line with then-prime minister Jawaharlal Nehru’s a “forward policy”, launched less than a year before the hostilities erupted.

Recent archival research, however, has shown that China began preparing for military action as early as 1959 and that the war had more to do with domestic problems in China, including the disastrous Great Leap Forward campaign launched in the late 1950s which resulted in widespread famine and sparked opposition within the Communist Party against leader Mao Zedong.

It was also a time when China wanted to dethrone India from its dominant role in the Non-Aligned Movement, which bound together newly independent states in Asia and Africa, and replace it with Chinese leadership over revolutionary movements in what Beijing later called the “Third World.”



In that sense, there are certain similarities between the situation today and the run-up to the 1962 war. China first tested India’s defenses in an attack on an outpost in Ladakh in October 1959 – by sheer coincidence or not where the current tensions are escalating. The Galwan Valley was also a flashpoint area in the 1962 war.

Indian media, including the prestigious India Today and daily Hindustan Times, have tied the Chinese build-up along the LAC to its internal crisis caused by the Covid-19 pandemic.

That view mirrors the US State Department, which has asserted that China is leveraging the distraction caused by the pandemic to “coerce its neighbors” in the region, seen in muscle-flexing in the South China Sea and saber-rattling around Taiwan.

Beijing’s officials have strongly denied the accusation of pandemic opportunism. But such nationalism-driven maneuvers could also be a means for Xi to deflect attention from his government’s often opaque handling of the Covid-19 crisis.

The pandemic has also caused a massive disruption of the Chinese economy. Industrial output fell by 13.5% in January-February compared to the same period in 2019. Neither the SARS outbreak in 2002-03 nor the 2008-09 global financial crisis caused such a sharp drop in China’s production.

David Grossman, a senior defense analyst at the US-based Rand Corporation, argued in an article for the World Politics Review on May 27 that China’s assertive behavior has little to do with the Covid-19 pandemic and that Beijing has applied the same types of pressure tactics against its neighbors for several years.

While that may be true, there is arguably too much happening simultaneously for it to be a coincidence.

Nepal, previously an Indian ally which now has close relations with Beijing, is involved in another dispute with India over the construction of a road to reach pilgrim sites in Tibet, a pledge Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi made to his Hindu constituency.

The road traverses territory in the northwestern corner of Nepal that Kathmandu considers Nepalese territory. Kathmandu’s stance against India is most certainly welcome by its new ally in Beijing.

The Global Times’ recent tirades against India, including mention of the 1962 war, are unprecedented in tagging India as a Chinese adversary. The publication also makes several references to what Beijing seems to believe is a new US-India alliance against China.

“Although a handful of Indian media outlets and social organizations echo the Trump administration’s views, the Indian government should keep a sober head and not be used as cannon ash by the US,” Long Xingchun, a Chinese analyst, wrote in an op-ed piece published on May 25.

In a May 27 tweet, US President Donald Trump wrote that the US was “ready, willing and able to mediate or arbitrate [India and China’s] now raging border dispute.”

Other senior US officials have leaned more heavily in favor of India’s position. “Flare-ups on the border, I think, are a reminder that Chinese aggression is not always just rhetorical,’’ Alice Wells, acting US assistant secretary for South and Central Asia Affairs, said on May 20.

“Whether it’s in the South China Sea or whether it’s along the border with India, we continue to see provocations and disturbing behavior by China that raises questions about how China seeks to use its growing power.’’

Her comments, however, were dismissed by Chinese foreign ministry spokesman Zhao Lijian.

“[Wells’] accusation that China ‘invaded’ India is an attempt to change the current situation and is a bunch of lies. China and India are discussing the issue via diplomatic channels, and this has nothing to do with the US,” he tweeted on May 21.

It remains to be seen if the present India-China tension along the LOC will mirror the 72-day military standoff between the two sides at Doklam in 2017. At that time, China was constructing a road through territory disputed with Bhutan down to the Indian border in Sikkim.



Still, it’s not clear if India or China can afford any further escalation of the current confrontations in Sikkim and Ladakh. Although trade between China and India fell 12.4% year-on-year in the first two months of the Covid-19 crisis, China remains India’s largest trading partner.

India exports mainly cotton, mineral fuel, ores and other raw materials to China, while it imports China-made electronic equipment and components used in its manufacturing sector. India’s trade deficit with China was thus enormous at US$53 billion in the fiscal year ending in March 2019.

Whatever happens next on the border, it appears that India is being dragged into the US and China’s fast coalescing new Cold War. Given India’s longstanding policy of putting its own interests first and avoidance of close alliances with any world power, New Delhi will likely find a way to solve its latest China problem.

Indeed, India is not and is unlikely to ever become – as one analyst put it and the Chinese apparently now believe – a US proxy in a wider geo-strategic game.

Sumit Sharma contributed reporting from Mumbai

Asia Times Financial is now live. Linking accurate news, insightful analysis and local knowledge with the ATF China Bond 50 Index, the world's first benchmark cross sector Chinese Bond Indices. Read ATF now.
 

hit&run

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Being alarmist is alright but blaming your own country and drawing wrong conclusions from anecdotal theories is pure hogwash.

Since UPA India is losing land to China and it has been discussed here in this forum; popularly called ‘salami slicing tactic’. During Kargil when we were busy with Pakistan these Chinese came to capture our lands.

Only at Docklam India preempted China and stood up to their bullying.

It is quite disappointing to see same people who claim to understand propaganda nuances and Congress-I ecosystem have started to talking like them because one politician who used to be a military man has wrote on behalf of China. “China Thinks” some techinal stuff spun around pivitol argument that India is at fault.
 

vampyrbladez

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Do not twist things... do go in circles..
Army gets deployed on receipt of Warning Orders or orders from top. Till War is declared ITBP does not come under command. Such is the system..

But if ITBP was under command then it becomes Army's responsibility to take over from ITBP as and when required. When under command Army is reported to about all activities... In that case whatever happens on border is "responsibility" of Army....

But in the present case, I think ITBP had it royally... IG NW Frontier ITBP must have proceeded in leave... rather than going to Galwan.
ITBP is a holding unit. Army as you have mentioned gets deployed upon Warning Orders. When the enemy uses guile to deploy 5000 soldiers as reserve under a 'military exercise' then how is it to be surmised.

IA deployed in force and in time but not soon enough. AFAIK ITBP got caught unaware by the sudden deployment.
 

Bhadra

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Respected Sir, will you please bother to enlighten me what ground breaking affirmation he has made in his article apart from 40-60, geopolitical history of Ladakh, blaming Modi, Army so on, which you are repeatedly calling to refute. Seems Panag directly getting inputs from PLA headquarters.
He has asked two basic question?
Was intelligence available for any such large Chinese move ?
Why ITBP is not under come of Army? Why ITBP failed to take appropriate cation is LAC is wth them ?
Do make me repeat the questions and go all around Kailash Mansarovar ... :pound:
 
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