India China LAC & International Border Discussions

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IndianHawk

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Just saw this again .
Some members were thinking I falsely criticise Chinese equipment. This is from 2017.

Chinese frigate said to be disabled, drifting in Indian ocean

July 9, 2017 at 15:56 by
Mikhail Voytenko
FleetMon.com Editor

Online news outlet East Pendulum said Chinese Type 052D frigate DDG-173 CHANGSHA broke down in Indian ocean while en route to Baltic sea, to take part in joint China-Russia naval exercise Joint Sea 2017. East Pendulum is referring to an anonymous China military source. CHANGSHA, according to East Pendulum, suffered propulsion failure and is drifting since at least June 26, with replenishment ship LUOMAHU (Qiandaohu-class or Type 903, displacement 23.400) nearby. A Chinese squadron to take part in Baltic sea exercises (which exercises already stirred some fears in Baltic States – Voytenko Mikhail), therefore, is reduced to frigates Hefei and Yuncheng only.





source = https://www.fleetmon.com/maritime-news/2017/18727/chinese-frigate-said-be-disabled-drifting-indian-o
 

IndianHawk

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Fault in new equipments happen. Our entire boat flipped and Sumabrine caught fire several times does that mean everything we manufacture is shitty too.
Our boat flipped in yard during maintenance by the mistake of yard crew.
Submarine was old Soviet un upgraded.

This is a be brand new engine breaking down in enemy stronghold it's certain death of crew and certain loss of war.

And one wonders if brand new engines breakdown like this then how many of them are actually available.

Chinese submarines too have caught fire many times before.
Their new lpd just burned totally from inside few days ago. This shit stinks.
 

Bhumihar

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Our boat flipped in yard during maintenance by the mistake of yard crew.
Submarine was old Soviet un upgraded.

This is a be brand new engine breaking down in enemy stronghold it's certain death of crew and certain loss of war.

And one wonders if brand new engines breakdown like this then how many of them are actually available.

Chinese submarines too have caught fire many times before.
Their new lpd just burned totally from inside few days ago. This shit stinks.
So we can agree that both side have shitty equipment don't we?
Counting on enemies equipment to fail is not something to be considered.
 

SRao

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I think India did not think thru carefully when meeting with Aus PM and signing the agreements, just a day before it was going to meet the Chinese generals and ask them to withdraw, I can now see the chinese being in an agreeable mood to do so. The Aussie meeting should have been held a day after the chinese mtg.
 

Longewala

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Expected better than name calling from you



India is not the only country to build jungle warfare techniques.



You'd be surprised



If IA has contingency plans for this then someone thinks the idea has merit.


This forum is for discussing and sharing ideas. If you are going to attack me for that then whats the purpose of the forum to begin with?
Frankly I think the India army would be salivating at the thought if China doing something like a Myanmar manouver

You are thinking in terms of bypassing the Maginot line but keep in mind
A. Germany was used to attacking France every 20 years and knew the land well (which also had very good road networks after the initial crossing). Very different from rushing into difficult terrain that you don't know
B. Just because it worked for the Reich in 1940 doesn't mean it's easy.
It didn't work for Napaks at Khem Karan 1965, it didn't work for the Germans themselves at Bulge 44.
Even the 1940 offensive was touch and go, required huge luck, complete air superiority, huge gap in doctrine (Panzer divisioons Vs penny packets), France to do everything wrong, be caught completely by surprise and fail to counter attack (partly because, and this is underappreciated, the Germans had multiple options to go for after the initial breakthrough)

In this case,
India will know well in advance if they use this route (satellite imagery, friendly Myanmar forces)
The axis of attack will be fairly predictable and easily blocked by modest infantry forces
They will face difficult terrain for a much longer stretch
Air superiority will not be a given
Unlike France 1940 India has forces well suited (multiple mountain divisions)
 

IndianHawk

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So we can agree that both side have shitty equipment don't we?
Counting on enemies equipment to fail is not something to be considered.
My post was against those who hype Chinese equipment. Our equipment has far better record then chinkies.

Look at j15 crash rates no Indian jet can match that.
And it's what comes out.

Let there be a war and if we loose I will agree with you. But the fact that Chinese ran away in doklam and will run away again ( already retreating in galwan) tell me I'm right about chini equipment.
 

IndianHawk

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I think India did not think thru carefully when meeting with Aus PM and signing the agreements, just a day before it was going to meet the Chinese generals and ask them to withdraw, I can now see the chinese being in an agreeable mood to do so. The Aussie meeting should have been held a day after the chinese mtg.
Chinese only understand force. Their mood was bad after we bitchslapped them in doklam too. But what can they do??
 

sayareakd

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There is no question of retreat. Gone are the days of 1962. Today we have roads bang up to the LAC and no withdrawal fighting operations will be conducted.It will be battle for every boulder and every rock. Last man last round...
Hi Bhadra ji, short cut, test A5 with nuke in atmosphere where Chinese have satellites.

They understand power. At present they are acting against art of war. We have nothing to lose. Or that's not possible, do underground thermo nuke.

Let's not put lives at risk, when we can show bigger stick.

This will make sure they will not repeate anything for next two or.more decades.
 

IndianHawk

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Hi Bhadra ji, short cut, test A5 with nuke in atmosphere where Chinese have satellites.

They understand power. At present they are acting against art of war. We have nothing to lose. Or that's not possible, do underground thermo nuke.

Let's not put lives at risk, when we can show bigger stick.

This will make sure they will not repeate anything for next two or.more decades.
Trump is probably going to withdraw from ctbt then it will be open season of nuke testing.
 

Assassin 2.0

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UN itaelf is not very democratic.. the primary role of UN should have been to promote secular plural democracy all over the world.. how can they tolerate Islamic nations

The member are jokes.. they don't have any say or voting rights on important issues.. only top handful country decide .. also anyone can veto ..

It is the dictator type organisation.. just dump UNSC or remove veto power and have majority vote favour and increase number of nation in UNSC
if UN don't add new members in security council it will end up as a dead organization in future.
Post world war 2 organization is not in sync with today's era challenges and conditions UN have failed to prevent any single war.
In india there is a fake hype about UN. There are tons of resolutions passed on Isreal non of them worked and will not work.

Foreign Minister Sushma Swaraj presented India's cautionary message at the UN: "Step by slow step, the importance, influence, respect and value of this institution is beginning to ebb... The United Nations must accept that it needs fundamental reform. Reform cannot be cosmetic. We need to change the institution's head and heart to make both compatible to contemporary reality. Reform must begin today; tomorrow could be too late. If the UN is ineffective, the whole concept of multilateralism will collapse. India does not believe that the United Nations should become the instrument of a few at the cost the many

UN countries be it USA Russia france UK china will not allow any other country to share their chair because it will only undermine there own power.
 

IndianHawk

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if UN don't add new members in security council it will end up as a dead organization in future.
Post world war 2 organization is not in sync with today's era challenges and conditions UN have failed to prevent any single war.
In india we there is a fake hype about UN. There are tons of resolutions passed on Isreal non of them worked and will not work.

Foreign Minister Sushma Swaraj presented India's cautionary message at the UN: "Step by slow step, the importance, influence, respect and value of this institution is beginning to ebb... The United Nations must accept that it needs fundamental reform. Reform cannot be cosmetic. We need to change the institution's head and heart to make both compatible to contemporary reality. Reform must begin today; tomorrow could be too late. If the UN is ineffective, the whole concept of multilateralism will collapse. India does not believe that the United Nations should become the instrument of a few at the cost the many

UN countries be it USA Russia france UK china will not allow any other country to share their chair because it will only undermine there own power.
UN is already useless. And UNSC is already dead.

India wields far more diplomatic power in world today that neither UK ,France nor Russia could match .
Our economy is bigger than all 3 of those combined .
(PPP).

Just like excluding India forced USA to broke npt ctbt rules same way without India unsc is just like dead NPT.

India is now defacto powerful nation. Global rules are meaningless for us.
 

Shashank Nayak

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In this article Lt Gen Panag says there are 7 intrusion points on the indian side of the lac in Galwan valley region.. If you look at his map, and compare it with Abhijit iyer mitra map from his article in print, you can see that Panag has marked the LAC further back, so that chinese positions are on Indian side.. Abhijit says as of now there is no intruison in Galwan valley region.Now where does the LAC really pass through in Galwan valley region. Can you find a GOI version of LAC in government website..


 

Rxbanda

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Just saw this again .
Some members were thinking I falsely criticise Chinese equipment. This is from 2017.
Not surprising.
In biomedical research, most of the publications originating from China are unreliable and non-reproducible. Every year hundreds of thousands of patents are filed from China. But most of them are useless. From household supplies to huge defence mfc.ing, they are known for cheap quality. Even the widely publicized rapidly built COVID-19 hospital was falling apart unable to withstand wind and storm, with reportedly heavy water leakage. Not surprising that their J15s keep crashing and naval ship breaking down.
 

ninja hattori

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a must read by just retired foreign secretary and ex indian ambassador to china


China Doesn’t Want a New World Order. It Wants This One.

nytimes.com/2020/06/04/opinion/china-america-united-nations.html
Vijay Gokhale
June 4, 2020
China is in the midst of a fierce battle to salvage its reputation.
Under fire for their part in the pandemic and reproached for their move to assert control over Hong Kong, the country’s officials are in firefighting mode. Their approach has two parts. First, sell the China story — emphasizing its success in the fight against the coronavirus and glossing over its initial errors. Second, attack those who seek to tarnish the country’s image.
President Xi Jinping has left this battle to his subordinates. As the United States falters and the world spins into crisis, he has a bigger campaign to occupy him: taking over the international institutions, like the World Health Organization and the United Nations, that manage the world.
The plan bears a suitably benign and innocuous title — “Community With a Shared Future for Mankind.” First proposed by Mr. Xi in 2013 and introduced at the United Nations two years later, the concept revolves around the importance of consultation and dialogue, of inclusivity and consensus, of win-win cooperation and shared benefits. It is, in short, entirely vague. It contains no specific action points and no tangible outlines of a new world order.
That’s the point.
Contrary to speculation, China has always said it is not seeking to overthrow the global order. We should listen. Why would China go to the trouble of capsizing the global order when it can simply take it over, whole and intact?

After all, China is the biggest beneficiary of globalization. It has systematically used Western-led multilateral institutions, such as the World Trade Organization, to advance its interests and influence. Though still fighting for greater control of the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund, it has determinedly captured the leadership of four key United Nations agencies that set international rules and standards. (It almost claimed a fifth, the World Intellectual Property Organization, this year.)
No surprise then that China is now the second-largest financial contributor to the United Nations: It has steadily been building up its influence in international institutions for years.
Far from opening up a new battleground, China’s plan is to fight on familiar territory. Its message to the world is simple: China is ready to pick up the slack, as the United States retreats from its global responsibilities. For a world exhausted and impoverished by the pandemic, it’s a seductive proposition. Anybody who takes the reins will be good enough; few will ponder its significance for the global order. Development and stability, not China’s ambitions to lead, are the priorities for most countries.
There’s good reason for the gamble. The pandemic may have exposed shortcomings of China’s system, but it also uncovered many deficiencies of the West. The United States and Europe, each burdened by political difficulties and social challenges, are struggling to contain a virus for which they were unprepared. The global institutions they created and nurtured after World War II are directionless. The rest of the world has been left to fend for itself as best it can.
China stumbled at the start of the pandemic, true. But the West appears to be losing the moral high ground. By the time the United States chooses its next president, after what is sure to be a divisive campaign played out against a backdrop of domestic disorder, China hopes to have regained the confidence of the world. It will then firmly have the advantage.

It’s hard to remain sanguine at such a prospect. The world needs balance — at the moment, no country other than the United States has the means to ensure it. At a practical level, its leadership is indispensable.
[COLOR=rgba(179, 151, 15, 0.7)][COLOR=rgba(179, 151, 15, 0.7)]But it’s more than that. The world needs American leadership to remind it that respect for freedom and human dignity provides the best path to a shared future of humankind. The Beijing model — where an authoritarian party-state single-mindedly exalts economic betterment over free political choice — may look attractive to some. But it cannot be widely emulated. Dependent on China’s unique culture and history, the method can work only there. Democracy, by contrast, is based on universal principles that can be followed everywhere, by everyone.
[/COLOR]
“Sit tight in the fishing boat,” a famous Chinese saying goes, “despite the rising wind and waves.” China, we can be assured, intends to ride out the storm.
And if the West can’t recover its faith in the universal power of democracy — from India to Indonesia, Ghana to Uruguay — China could then take the world, as it is.
Vijay Gokhale, a former foreign secretary of India, served as the country’s ambassador to China from January 2016 to October 2017.[/COLOR]
 
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