India-China 2020 Border Dispute - Military and Strategic Discussion

[Kalki2020]

China has many grudges with India.

1. India is the only country with an equivalent population that can give competition to China
2. India did not join BRI
3. India is mostly non mongoloid people
4. India has a rich culture and history and so is resistant to China's domination.
5. It has to help it's client Pakistan

First two points are relevant..

 

[Indrajit]

two Indian “experts” used in this video are dhume & shuk la. this fundamental discrepancy in Indian foreign policy needs to be rectified first. India should be represented by people who genuinely care about India’s interests, not just congress party interests. this just implies that indian “patriots“ are so dumb/unprepared that they cannot even take control of these sideshows. if that’s the case how do they plan to make India shupa powa, without even having a handle on India’s narrative abroad. Everything else is an excuse.

The problem is that some of the media houses want only those types. while always irritating, there is no immediate workaround except to cold shoulder such media.

 

[garg_bharat]

two Indian “experts” used in this video are dhume & shuk la. this fundamental discrepancy in Indian foreign policy needs to be rectified first. India should be represented by people who genuinely care about India’s interests, not just congress party interests. this just implies that indian “patriots“ are so dumb/unprepared that they cannot even take control of these sideshows. if that’s the case how do they plan to make India shupa powa, without even having a handle on India’s narrative abroad. Everything else is an excuse.

CNBC and NBC news are basically leftist news media. But your point is absolutely valid that India is not having media savvy persons who can project a proper image abroad. This problem is compounded by the fact that India's strategic thinktanks are steeped in Congressi culture of blaming others and avoiding responsibility.

My thinking is that results come from actions. Words are not enough. The whole world will take you seriously when your actions speak.

 

[ezsasa]

The problem is that some of the media houses want only those types. while always irritating, there is no immediate workaround except to cold shoulder such media.

this is a solvable problem which has been ignored for far too long, or all of us will have to come to the realisation that Indian nationalists are incompetent when it comes to foreign affairs and god knows what else.

 

[ezsasa]

My thinking is that results come from actions. Words are not enough. The whole world will take you seriously when your actions speak.

IA just killed more than 40 PLA soldiers, it is PLA’s biggest ever casualties in 40 years in their first ever military confrontation with a proper army in so many years.

What more “action” can there be?

 

[utubekhiladi]

two Indian “experts” used in this video are dhume & shuk la. this fundamental discrepancy in Indian foreign policy needs to be rectified first. India should be represented by people who genuinely care about India’s interests, not just congress party interests. this just implies that indian “patriots“ are so dumb/unprepared that they cannot even take control of these sideshows. if that’s the case how do they plan to make India shupa powa, without even having a handle on India’s narrative abroad. Everything else is an excuse.

1) create/nurture folks who can represent Indian patriots abroad.

2) create arguments which are simple & profound. so that the counter arguments end up looking stupid.

do we have any options either legally or non-ethically for morons like them?

 

[Kalki2020]

It could be all of the above as well.

CCP’s diplomatic capability cannot be seen from a western mould, last 5 months CCP has amply demonstrated that they can open & manage multiple fronts at the same time.

Very unlikely. How on earth, infrastructure work inside the geography of neuclear armed sovereign nation like India can be threatened or subdued by encroaching buffer zones along undefined borders.

However opening fronts is totally different context than what we are stressing upon here.

One missing dimensions in current context is POK & CPEC which could be placed with other reasons as other members have mentioned here. China might have sensed our moves towards POK leading to such assertive actions.

 

[ezsasa]

do we have any options either legally or non-ethically for morons like them?

Ofcourse there is...
Spend more money in think tanks globally, and encourage our “experts” to network more with foreign media & other think tanks. Make them see our side of things without being confrontational. I am simplifying here, but get the jist.

NRI’s have a big role to play here. If pakis & Israeli immigrant diaspora can do this, so should the Indian diaspora be able to do this.

 

[utubekhiladi]

Ofcourse there is...
Spend more money in think tanks globally, and encourage our “experts” to network more with foreign media & other think tanks. Make them see our side of things without being confrontational. I am simplifying here, but get the jist.

NRI’s have a big role to play here. If pakis & Israeli immigrant diaspora can do this, so should the Indian diaspora be able to do this.

very well said

 

[IndianHawk]

Taiwan will see more strategic role from now on.

India posting key diplomat to Taiwan amid China tension

The Sunday Express has learnt that Gourangalal Das, currently Joint Secretary (Americas) in the Ministry of External Affairs, will be the next envoy to Taiwan.

indianexpress.com

 

[ezsasa]

very well said

Just to finish my point, there is only one chair(sponsorship) that i know of in U.S think tanks which works exclusively for developing trade relationships between India & U.S. the charter seems to be well defined & focussed in such a away that their "experts" don't get into loose talk that happens with other U.S based india experts.

the chair is wadhwani chair with CSIS.

More such positive agenda should be sponsored.

 

[ezsasa]

Very unlikely. How on earth, infrastructure work inside the geography of neuclear armed sovereign nation like India can be threatened or subdued by encroaching buffer zones along undefined borders.

This part has already been explained, the infrastructure buildup on our side has led to PLA coming across increased patrols from our side over past two years. the travel time of our patrols to reach LAC has reduced drastically.

rest i agree.

 

[Bhadra]

This is absurd to believe that infrastructure preparedness rattled China to take such drastic actions.
It's not infrastructure issue but part of larger geopolitical sabre rattling.
2021 is going to be 100 yrs of CPC hence CPC is in haste of settling down some thorny issue, like Taiwan or Hongkong or complete control of SCS but unfortunately US preempted that & deployed it's forces which watered down the CCP ambition on Taiwan & SCS. The only way they could respond to US & other smaller nation in US camp around SCS is by challenging India along LAC & going ahead with Hongkong's full integration while knowing fully well about the consequences.
China miscalculated on one account that this pandemic situation wouldn't allow others attention in its misadventures around SCS or with Taiwan. Now neither US nor India is budging on respective positions hence they feel tightly entrapped & asking for de escalation.

Do you know what it meas by "creating facts on ground"???

 

[nick_indian]

Do you know what it meas by "creating facts on ground"???

Professional saab, any idea what's happening in Depsang ? Have they taken over grey area like in Pangong Tso ? or is the build up on their side ?

 

[nick_indian]

One unintended but good consequence of this event has been the de-hyphenation of India and Pak. Now people are talking about India-China rather than India-Pak. Creates more respect for us in the world.

I hope Modi keeps it this way now. Competing with a bigger and stronger country will also motivate us to do better rather than relax and laze around by comparing ourselves with a failed state like Pakistan.

 

[ARVION]

The possible scenario's of Rafale's Vs J 20'S in BVRAAM's Secnario's

The Meteor uses a seeker of the same family as the MICA and ASTER missiles and is a known and proven technology. Also no aircraft is gonna fly straight into a missile while hoping it can jam it successfully - we will gonna see F-pole engagements which the ramjet will create a no-escape zone way larger than the Chinese PL-12 and PL-15 capacities. As for Meteor vs PL-12, that's a no-brainer, the PL-12 is roughly lower to an AIM-120B. The PL-15, on the other hand, features an AESA seeker and a dual-pulse rocket motor, sufficient to scare the USAF into the LREW program.

And? It's still a slotted array or pre-PESA radar. Its ECCM advantage is that it has a two-way data-link that can keep it guided by the Rafael. We're uncertain, basically, as to what the exact capabilities of the PL-15 are. The comparable Russian system, the K-77M, has a stated 197 km aerodynamic range, but is roughly the same meters to the PL-15. The minimum expected aerodynamic range of the PL-15 would be 200 km, likewise, but the extended length could result in significantly increased ranges; the MICA missile, for instance, is extremely long range missile's, but sports a 33% longer range (km vs 60km implied aerodynamic range) because of only a 7 kg difference (PL-10E has a listed 105 kg weight, the MICA has a 112 kg weight) and a 5G max maneuverability difference (55G vs 50G).

A further factor is that the standard NEZ of an AAM is about 1/3rd the aerodynamic range. But since the PL-15 is a dual pulse rocket motor, it can fire off its rocket motor in stages and further extend its NEZ over a conventional AAM. At 200 km range with 50% aerodynamic range, you get 100 km. At 250 km range with 50% aerodynamic range, you get 125 km. At 300 km range with the standard 33% aerodynamic range, you get 100 km. The difference between standard AAMs, dual pulse AAMs, and ramjets is that with standard AAMs you get one shot, with dual pulse AAMs you get two shots, and ramjets can continuously vary their thrust as long as they're within ramjet speed.

The main defenses of the Rafale comes out, first, to the Rafale having a modern IRST, being IOC-ed in 2009, with stated maximum detection / tracking at 100 km. This means that the J-20 can't approach the Rafale at high subsonic and has to do an F-35-style low-speed approach. Second, the Rafale is the only Western aircraft known to be capable of 11G emergency agility, which reduces the effective range of the PL-15.

When it comes to J-20 vs Rafale, the pure offensive competition is very close; the PL-15 likely matche's the Meteor in pure aerodynamic range, likely has almost similar effective range vs 9G based purely on its greater range, but is going to suffer a large range reduction vs a 11G fighter. Defensively, given that the Meteor isn't going to get an AESA seeker until 2022 at the earliest, and that the J-20 is at least a -30 dBsm VLO fighter, that the AESA on the J-20 is jamming capable, the Rafale is going to have a capability to easily detech the J-20.

Late to say, but still.

 

[WARREN SS]

Western intelligence agents, who see the border as one of Asia’s most dangerous flash points, say they think that China lost more than a dozen soldiers in the fight.

Caught Between Indian and Chinese Troops, at 15,000 Feet (Published 2020)

Ladakh is a place of high-altitude pastures, lonely herders and desolate moonscapes — and a byword for intractable geopolitical disputes.

www.nytimes.com

 

[nick_indian]

Western intelligence agents, who see the border as one of Asia’s most dangerous flash points, say they think that China lost more than a dozen soldiers in the fight.

Caught Between Indian and Chinese Troops, at 15,000 Feet (Published 2020)

Ladakh is a place of high-altitude pastures, lonely herders and desolate moonscapes — and a byword for intractable geopolitical disputes.

www.nytimes.com

As per US News and Report, their intelligence source in US say China lost 35.

 

[WARREN SS]

As per US News and Report, their intelligence source in US say China lost 35.

I think From day One they Right
Its 35 Killed But this figures is based On CIA assets

IA ground sources Said they saw 43 Bodies on Ground

 

[ezsasa]

Western intelligence agents, who see the border as one of Asia’s most dangerous flash points, say they think that China lost more than a dozen soldiers in the fight.

Caught Between Indian and Chinese Troops, at 15,000 Feet (Published 2020)

Ladakh is a place of high-altitude pastures, lonely herders and desolate moonscapes — and a byword for intractable geopolitical disputes.

www.nytimes.com

from the article.

But India and China, both in the grip of increasingly nationalistic governments, will not give an inch of territory, even along a border so remote that it has never been conclusively mapped.

Does gettleman mean that, if not for nationalist govt land could have been grabbed easily and no one would have been wiser. freudian slip.