India-China 2020 Border Dispute - Military and Strategic Discussion

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garg_bharat

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The reason we need to liberate atleast part of Tibet is that we need buffer and control of the water there in friendly hands.

Rest we can finance the Tibetan insurgents and they can fight their own liberation.
Bufffer is NOT an answer to our problems. The answer is a strong defence posture by increasing availability of defence manpower (through draft), increasing domestic production of arms and ammunition, and a Presidential form of government.
 

Synergy

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Allegations are there , I don't know if they have a base or not


allegations don't mean anything. and all of these are baseless political allegations.
the words comeing from the mouth of Asok Gehlot or Sivakumar is not verses of Vedas.

no amount of money can buy Mr Scindia or Mr Pilot. political struggle can rip any party apart.
 

garg_bharat

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With 20 dead , public will accept a conflict with the Chinese.

I doubt any amount of conditioning will prepare our people or our media for any setback or losses.
How can you speak for "public"?

A large number of families are suffering from economic hardship at current time. You think we need to add hyperinflation and shortages of goods. (Likely due to war).

Public does not know anything about big wars. 1962 is a distant memory.
 
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garg_bharat

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There were losses and setbacks in Kargil too.Indian public accepts losses in terms of soldiers.Also the prospect of a large loss of territory is unlikely unless it’s a prolonged full blown war. In a skirmish or short war there will be some losses and some gains. In a full blown prolonged war we are at a disadvantage only for the simple reason that our domestic defence production capability is negligible. In long drawn wars it is how much you can manufacture locally that matters.
The enemy in Kargil was lacking in motivation and resources. It abandoned its troops when faced with resistance.

China is not Pakistan. It will be a grave mistake to even compare.

China will keep on bringing reinforcements. Until India is prepared for a very costly and bloody war; any talk of war is treading on thin air.

Local production matters as it reduces the cost (or at least increases affordability). But that is not the only issue right now.

A war can go either way. A false optimism is the worst thing. Indians will have to be prepared for further loss of territory + material and human losses.
 

utubekhiladi

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Xitler is not just a wordplay, here are some things common between Hitler and Xi Jinping

The reckless analogy between China and Nazi Germany

The World Has Created A Monster In China; Time To Withdraw The Free Pass

Xi is the 21st century's version of Hitler

What Hitler did to Jews, China is doing the same to Uyghurs in times of Corona

He Called China’s President ‘Xitler’ on Twitter. Now He Faces Prison.

Threat from China recalls that of Nazi Germany, Australian lawmaker says

Genocide in Xinjiang by Chinese Communist Party akin to Nazi Germany: Report
https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...ofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst

Nazi parallel with China’s rise creates a storm



enough said :fyeah:
 

LDev

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I will be cautious when saying that. If they target Indian cities, the NFU will go to the back burner. If cities are attacked, That’s an existential threat and nukes will be brandished by all means.
Mainland China is fair game at that point.
Let's be blunt here. China vs India on the nuke equation is like India vs Pakistan. As of now according to OSINT, China has 104 nuke warhead missiles that can target India. Each warhead will be at least 200kt-300kt, some of them will be as big as 1MT. Against that, again according to OSINT, India has deployed just 10 each of Agni 1, Agni 2 and Agni 3. That is a total of 30 Agnis which can reach various parts of China. Against the most target rich region of eastern China, OSINT says India can only deploy the 20 Agni 2 and Agni 3 missiles. Agni 5 deployment is unknown. IAF fighter aircraft delivery is limited to Tibet which is largely barren and will not cause economic damage to China. Also, the boosted fission warheads on India's Agnis may be 200 kt, though the largest yield tested at Pokharan as you know is 43 kt. In comparison China had a 3 MT nuke test. So the long and short of it is that India will cause major damage to China in the event of a nuke exchange, but India will be decimated with it's largest cities smoldering radioactive ruins.
 

Bhadra

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Oh no. We don’t need another tin can. Even the Russians do no not want that light tank. Don’t see what the sprut would bring to the table . With hardly any protection offered, the same firepower can be brought to bear with vehicle mounted Atgms at a lesser cost.
If these tanks are being procured as special equipment on emergency bases for Depsand plain .. I would understand that as a specific special measure. Since these can be airlifted on even taken by roads being around twenty tons, the procurement would be justified.

DBO Depsand plateau is about 40km by 40 km bawl surrounded with high mountains with an opening only towards the LAC side of Chip Chap River. The space is not good enough for maneuver warfare by a good place for the employment of Tanks in direct support role. Here a mixture of Guns and missiles will play havoc on advancing Chinese tanks and APCs. Since it carries a 125mm gun, its ammunition and other spares would be available with India.

Then India may Christine that as DBO tank.

If the tank is being procured as a generic light tank. there is no justification for it whatsoever. India has no Baltic Sea nor the Caspian sea.

On the face of it, it appears to be a psychological exercise on the part of the Army to ensure that someone does not feel LOB..
 

utubekhiladi

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Pakistanis behind ‘Chinese’ info war on India-China border standoff

Handles with Chinese names, Mandarin content traced to earlier avatars in Urdu.

Many of the ‘Chinese’ accounts that mushroomed on social media this summer and spread false information about the border clash with India have been traced to Pakistan, in what is believed to be a coordinated disinformation campaign aimed at India.

The India-China border tensions starting in May, and culminating in the June 15 clash in the Galwan Valley, sparked a first-of-its-kind information war on social media, where Indian and Chinese accounts on Twitter, Facebook and YouTube traded images and videos in an effort to both capture the narrative and the attention of the media.

The disinformation flowed both ways. But what was unknown to consumers of the posts by ‘Chinese’ social media users is that many of the accounts that posed as China-based users were actually Pakistani accounts. Twitter is banned in China, although it can be accessed using virtual private networks.

An analysis of some of the most active ‘Chinese accounts’ on the border clash on Twitter found that these accounts previously had different profile names and handle names. Some of these accounts even had user bios that were earlier in Urdu, before morphing overnight into Mandarin.
1596462636498.png


One such account, ‘xiuying637’, was earlier run as ‘hinaarbi2’, before it began tweeting information related to the Chinese military and the border clash. The account has been suspended, but only belatedly.

These accounts have used a loophole on Twitter that allows users to not only change their profile names, but their Twitter handles as well. Their changed avatars were detected because some of these accounts, which have tens of thousands of followers, were previously being tracked.

One account, with a profile name in Chinese characters, Zeping, and handle ‘sawaxpx’, that tweeted on the border previously tweeted in Urdu. Its tweets are now unavailable. Another account, ‘Yasifxi’, had a Chinese name and tweeted in Chinese characters, posting information about the border clash, but was traced to Pakistan.

These accounts have shared false information about casualties from the clash, unrelated images of injured soldiers, and videos of troops’ confrontations that were from previous border incidents. Tweeting in Mandarin and using Chinese names gave the posts a sense of credibility.

Some have gone to great lengths to establish authenticity, choosing Mandarin names, regularly retweeting information from official Chinese media outlets, such as Xinhua, and using photographs of Chinese soldiers as their profile images.

One such account has 17,000 followers and regularly tweets information from official Chinese media, in addition to disinformation. It is even followed by a couple of Chinese diplomats. While in its case, the location is difficult to pinpoint, a careful reading of the content of the tweets, and the fact that it is mostly mostly shared by Pakistani accounts, strongly hints at its origins — a fact that most readers are unaware of.

This strategy has not been limited to adopting Chinese identities. Pakistani accounts have also recently adopted Nepali and Sri Lankan avatars, all with the same motivation: posting information aimed at creating an unfavourable narrative about India.


 

Kumata

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Let's be blunt here. China vs India on the nuke equation is like India vs Pakistan. As of now according to OSINT, China has 104 nuke warhead missiles that can target India. Each warhead will be at least 200kt-300kt, some of them will be as big as 1MT. Against that, again according to OSINT, India has deployed just 10 each of Agni 1, Agni 2 and Agni 3. That is a total of 30 Agnis which can reach various parts of China. Against the most target rich region of eastern China, OSINT says India can only deploy the 20 Agni 2 and Agni 3 missiles. Agni 5 deployment is unknown. IAF fighter aircraft delivery is limited to Tibet which is largely barren and will not cause economic damage to China. Also, the boosted fission warheads on India's Agnis may be 200 kt, though the largest yield tested at Pokharan as you know is 43 kt. In comparison China had a 3 MT nuke test. So the long and short of it is that India will cause major damage to China in the event of a nuke exchange, but India will be decimated with it's largest cities smoldering radioactive ruins.
Putting in radioactivity in air will kill whole humanity....I know chinese are sadist but doubt they are at this level...so nuclear war if out of question... this will put their own house at risk as well....should we choose to fire all into china just like chinese did to us.....

I suspect we have just 30 deployed... no body advertises these things...
 
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Synergy

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So these will be anti-tank the pillboxes for DBO... one RPG shot pillboxes..
Sir please shed some light on...

what if T90/T72 will lead and Spruts will give additional fire support and will do flanking maneuvers?
and is there a chance to attach some era and an aps to it (I think Sprut comes with aps?)?
 

LDev

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look at the CEP at 3000km distance almost no missile would perfectly strike. Chinese could mistake for nuclear strike and respond . How would you get thru Chinese air defenses?
I don't think that China will respond with nukes against a conventional missile strike by India because offensive conventional missile strikes are part of their war gaming. In fact during Doklam in 2017, commentators were half expecting the PLA to launch missile strikes against IA positions. The same could be expected during the current stand off.

And you are correct that the open source CEP e.g. for the Agni 3 is 40 meters at 3000 km. So you could have a 1.5 ton conventional warhead hitting a target with a CEP of 40 meters. Anyway conventional missile strikes by India is a moot discussion because India just does not possess the Agni 2 and 3 in the kind of numbers, hundreds, that would make sense to use them in the conventional strike role.
 

Kumata

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I don't think that China will respond with nukes against a conventional missile strike by India because offensive conventional missile strikes are part of their war gaming. In fact during Doklam in 2017, commentators were half expecting the PLA to launch missile strikes against IA positions. The same could be expected during the current stand off.

And you are correct that the open source CEP e.g. for the Agni 3 is 40 meters at 3000 km. So you could have a 1.5 ton conventional warhead hitting a target with a CEP of 40 meters. Anyway conventional missile strikes by India is a moot discussion because India just does not possess the Agni 2 and 3 in the kind of numbers, hundreds, that would make sense to use them in the conventional strike role.
Range of Agni ... Agni V is what we need.... if we are to hit at core of chennis...

1596463154560.png

1596463218607.png
 

Synergy

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Your arguments are like Political agenda sometimes. You claimed Xi Jinping is doing this to undermine Modi's influence.. Like he cares lol. Xi Jinping only intention is to show India its place & it doesn't matter to him who's in power. Modi tried diplomacy with China more than any leader but he failed.
main reason behind this aggression is (or was) to undermine Modi. India without Modi (or BJP) will be much easier to checkmate and they (China) are habituated with it.

just think, f4 won't mean anything other than this.

it was just to humiliate that somehow spiralled out of the hand for Glawan incident and reluctance of us to bog down.
 

LDev

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Right now India can.. as China doesn't have any significant fleet in being west of the malacca strait.. And chinese power projection capability, from their home bases in south china sea is pretty tough to maintain during war.. But, in 10 years time, our position might be severely compromised if the chinese are able to setup pearl harbour style bases in Africa or Pakistan or maldives .
Blocking Chinese merchant shipping, even if the IN is capable of doing it alone, which I think it can, will never be done by India unless it gets the US on board because of the global economic fallout. The rest of the world literally depends on Chinese industrial production to keep the wheels of commerce turning and IN action in blocking Chinese shipping will disrupt that global flow and cause economic disruption.
 

Cheran

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Let's be blunt here. China vs India on the nuke equation is like India vs Pakistan. As of now according to OSINT, China has 104 nuke warhead missiles that can target India. Each warhead will be at least 200kt-300kt, some of them will be as big as 1MT. Against that, again according to OSINT, India has deployed just 10 each of Agni 1, Agni 2 and Agni 3. That is a total of 30 Agnis which can reach various parts of China. Against the most target rich region of eastern China, OSINT says India can only deploy the 20 Agni 2 and Agni 3 missiles. Agni 5 deployment is unknown. IAF fighter aircraft delivery is limited to Tibet which is largely barren and will not cause economic damage to China. Also, the boosted fission warheads on India's Agnis may be 200 kt, though the largest yield tested at Pokharan as you know is 43 kt. In comparison China had a 3 MT nuke test. So the long and short of it is that India will cause major damage to China in the event of a nuke exchange, but India will be decimated with it's largest cities smoldering radioactive ruins.
Interesting as to how we will factor in Pakistan in this scenario. "Need to take out Pakistan completely" in case India goes down would also be a line of thought.
 
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