India-China 2020 Border Dispute - Military and Strategic Discussion

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captscooby81

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Saudi Arabia awarded Modi Order of Abdul Aziz their highest civilian merit of order

UAE awarded Modi Order of Zayed their highest civilian merit of order

What did Iran give baba ji ka thulu after investing so much in chabahar port

The decision has been made to move into american camp which is visible from two highest award from american allies in gulf .

Are we going to end in camp which is threatening USA and Israel or in a camp which is threatening Iran and Hezbollah ?

Shia population of India are indian citizens they should be worried about their country rather than their bridars in tehran especially under the radical govt which is running their now .

Modi has not been able to do that for some reason. If we lose Iran, we lose Afghanistan, Balochistan and also our otherwise patriotic Shia population may feel antagonised. At the cost of receiving ire from Modi fans, I must say this is an utter failure of his foreign policy. I hope there is some quick action from this government to retain Iran.
 

nick_indian

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Saudi Arabia awarded Modi Order of Abdul Aziz their highest civilian merit of order

UAE awarded Modi Order of Zayed their highest civilian merit of order

What did Iran give baba ji ka thulu after investing so much in chabahar port

The decision has been made to move into american camp which is visible from two highest award from american allies in gulf .

Are we going to end in camp which is threatening USA and Israel or in a camp which is threatening Iran and Hezbollah ?

Shia population of India are indian citizens they should be worried about their country rather than their bridars in tehran especially under the radical govt which is running their now .
The Iranians allowed us to use a port on their territory to trade with Central Asia. Right next to the Pakistani Gwadar. All this while the Pakistanis have blocked Indian route to Central Asia. Also, they have allowed us to use their territory to needle Pakis in Balochistan.

I think these things are far more important for our country than some awards for Modi Ji ?
 

ezsasa

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Saudi Arabia awarded Modi Order of Abdul Aziz their highest civilian merit of order

UAE awarded Modi Order of Zayed their highest civilian merit of order

What did Iran give baba ji ka thulu after investing so much in chabahar port

The decision has been made to move into american camp which is visible from two highest award from american allies in gulf .

Are we going to end in camp which is threatening USA and Israel or in a camp which is threatening Iran and Hezbollah ?

Shia population of India are indian citizens they should be worried about their country rather than their bridars in tehran especially under the radical govt which is running their now .
India-funded Chabahar port in Iran to be integrated with Free Zone


“The inclusion of the port in the Free Zone is expected to boost the cargo through the port,” Arun Kumar Gupta, Managing Director of India Ports Global Ltd (IGPL), told BusinessLine.
 

ARVION

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Here we are talking about many subject's and on many Chinese languages forum's and english language forum's they are still discussing the Minnie Chen. It appear's she is their's Kryptonite's and a many member's pointed out on both chinese and English forum's that she is a real pleasure's what they meant by that, tried to search her photo, but unable to look's like an pen name's. A real mysterious person's.
 

ARVION

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Type 15's Dilema's and ATGM's.

For those who wish to apply a top-attack, F&F gun launched missile for a Tank, Here's where your logic stops making sense:

Warning, very long, but if you do read it please read it all.

First, tactically. I'd like to ask, why bother develop a gun-launched ATGM when you can do basically the same thing by adding external ATGMs on the turret... A strange (if not weird and stupid) premise that the missile has to be launched by gun, TBH. When you can use larger calibers and a bigger warhead without the restrictions of a barrel then why go for a gun-launched one... And how do you think you're going to improve the FCS and stuff for the crew to use... Space in the hatch is limited and the time used for development and improvement is meaningless. You can even just ask a crew to hold a Spriggean's to do the same thing. Meanwhile top-attack F&F ATGMs aren't that good. The price is high, very high. The volume's big, and the ranges aren't really pleasing. (Consider Javelin at 2.8km and apriggean's of 3+km. Hmmm... Seems to me not even better than APFSDS) If you then say the thing needs development for the ATGM's, then well everything can be developed in any amount of time so why not wait for a 4th or 5th gen tank or even Gundam instead.

Now, let's temporarily stop that talk and consider your assumptions of no air superiority, while reconnaissance doesn't find the enemy Type 15's, and that the Spriggean's and artillery back off the fronts aren't working. First, let's assume that the air superiority was diverted's after the Type's 15 had reached the sector. Normally, the Type 15's should immediately seek cover and hide itself from the sure coming air reconnaissance and air/artillery strikes, and wait for further instructions, instead of wandering off and looking for tanks to run into. Then again, if it does wander off, why wasn't it being wiped out by air and artillery support like it's the Spriggean's and artillery?

Okay, out of courtesy I will further assume that it does wander off and encounters an enemy tank as in the scenario imaged, but sadly that scenario is also contradictory to itself. An APFSDS needs only manual target search and well below seconds to hit a target, whereas for the ATGMs you asked for, they need time for the FCS to lock on to the target, and they fly way slower than APFSDS, not to mention the longer trajectory caused by the curvature which top-attack ATGMs all require. When running into our's tank, you don't always have access to immediate cover, in case you don't, even though you do fire your ATGM, if the enemy spots you, then, congrats, our's APFSDS already knocked the Type 15's down before Type 15's ATGM can hit its target. On the other hand, if the our's T 90's has access to cover or other things that can interfere with radar/thermal tracking, eg smoke grenades, then your ATGM will also likely not hit the target.

If the our's T 90's doesn't spot Type 15's, then why would the Type 15's launch ATGMs that can likely increase your chances of being spotted? If it doesn't see you then surely the turret isn't in your direction, so why not a clean shot with an APFSDS at its turret sides? Now let's say air superiority was diverted's before the Type 15's had reached the sector. So why on earth did that Type 15's drive into unknown territory and looking for tanks to fight? Is the commander insane? It's no difference from looking for death when you have no information of enemy land, no firepower support or even infantry support, while trying to become Superman and fight on your own, far from any allies to help. I can only comment this as Kamikaze.

Then strategically. In a assumption PLA has no air superiority, which given the potency of PLAAF and support fire from long range MLRS to destroy enemy airfields, is a highly possible scenario. You can't just say "oh, there's a possibility that this thing doesn't work as good, so let's change the whole thing. " That's the idea of going after a minor advantage (if not disadvantage) while abandoning the fact that it brings loss to the overall performance and causes redundancy. Yes, most possible scenarios don't include everything, but at least they're better approximations than taking only the extreme cases.

Eliminating ideas like this only needs some time of thinking over the possibilities and see if the logic actually makes sense, if it doesn't then eliminate that. All ideas must accord to actual needs and scenarios rather than just some random extreme case where oh, the thing works fine.
 
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utubekhiladi

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They will keep moving their deployments, seems to be the cat and mouse game they are playing. We are focusing on Galwan in the media but there is a lot action in depsang plains that nobody is reporting?
whats happening at galwan? sir
 

ARVION

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ATGM's enough for Type 15's

The point that's being illustrated here is that in a worst-case scenario, the T 90's is still capable of doing direct fire against enemy vehicles.

Offensively speaking, you can just have your system of systems overrun the opponent, and in an ideal world everything is peachy. Realistically, however, you are also going to be on the defensive at times. When you're on the defensive, on the other hand, the robustness and resilience, attached to your system of systems matters a lot; you're going to have infantry firing ATGMs, MANPADs, artillery is going to end up doubling as anti-tank guns, etc.

Remember if something can go wrong, it will. The point is that you're prepared for it and retain options even when things go wrong. And that's why a we need a ATGM's for the Type 15's matters; when the ATGM's hits the fan, the Type's 15 is entirely destroyed's.
 

ezsasa

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Type 15's Dilema's and ATGM's.

For those who wish to apply a top-attack, F&F gun launched missile for a Tank, Here's where your logic stops making sense:

Warning, very long, but if you do read it please read it all.

First, tactically. I'd like to ask, why bother develop a gun-launched ATGM when you can do basically the same thing by adding external ATGMs on the turret... A strange (if not weird and stupid) premise that the missile has to be launched by gun, TBH. When you can use larger calibers and a bigger warhead without the restrictions of a barrel then why go for a gun-launched one... And how do you think you're going to improve the FCS and stuff for the crew to use... Space in the hatch is limited and the time used for development and improvement is meaningless. You can even just ask a crew to hold a Spriggean's to do the same thing. Meanwhile top-attack F&F ATGMs aren't that good. The price is high, very high. The volume's big, and the ranges aren't really pleasing. (Consider Javelin at 2.8km and apriggean's of 3+km. Hmmm... Seems to me not even better than APFSDS) If you then say the thing needs development for the ATGM's, then well everything can be developed in any amount of time so why not wait for a 4th or 5th gen tank or even Gundam instead.

Now, let's temporarily stop that talk and consider your assumptions of no air superiority, while reconnaissance doesn't find the enemy Type 15's, and that the Spriggean's and artillery back off the fronts aren't working. First, let's assume that the air superiority was diverted's after the Type's 15 had reached the sector. Normally, the Type 15's should immediately seek cover and hide itself from the sure coming air reconnaissance and air/artillery strikes, and wait for further instructions, instead of wandering off and looking for tanks to run into. Then again, if it does wander off, why wasn't it being wiped out by air and artillery support like it's the Spriggean's and artillery?

Okay, out of courtesy I will further assume that it does wander off and encounters an enemy tank as in the scenario imaged, but sadly that scenario is also contradictory to itself. An APFSDS needs only manual target search and well below seconds to hit a target, whereas for the ATGMs you asked for, they need time for the FCS to lock on to the target, and they fly way slower than APFSDS, not to mention the longer trajectory caused by the curvature which top-attack ATGMs all require. When running into our's tank, you don't always have access to immediate cover, in case you don't, even though you do fire your ATGM, if the enemy spots you, then, congrats, our's APFSDS already knocked the Type 15's down before Type 15's ATGM can hit its target. On the other hand, if the our's T 90's has access to cover or other things that can interfere with radar/thermal tracking, eg smoke grenades, then your ATGM will also likely not hit the target.

If the our's T 90's doesn't spot Type 15's, then why would the Type 15's launch ATGMs that can likely increase your chances of being spotted? If it doesn't see you then surely the turret isn't in your direction, so why not a clean shot with an APFSDS at its turret sides? Now let's say air superiority was diverted's before the Type 15's had reached the sector. So why on earth did that Type 15's drive into unknown territory and looking for tanks to fight? Is the commander insane? It's no difference from looking for death when you have no information of enemy land, no firepower support or even infantry support, while trying to become Superman and fight on your own, far from any allies to help. I can only comment this as Kamikaze.

Then strategically. In a assumption PLA has no air superiority, which given the potency of PLAAF and support fire from long range MLRS to destroy enemy airfields, is a highly possible scenario. You can't just say "oh, there's a possibility that this thing doesn't work as good, so let's change the whole thing. " That's the idea of going after a minor advantage (if not disadvantage) while abandoning the fact that it brings loss to the overall performance and causes redundancy. Yes, most possible scenarios don't include everything, but at least they're better approximations than taking only the extreme cases.

Eliminating ideas like this only needs some time of thinking over the possibilities and see if the logic actually makes sense, if it doesn't then eliminate that. All ideas must accord to actual needs and scenarios rather than just some random extreme case where oh, the thing works fine.
who is making an argument for "Tube launched ATGM" against Type 15 here at DFI?
 

BeEverVectorMan

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Not yet, i'll believe it when there is an actual military confrontation between PLA & U.S military.
so far it falls in the category of posturing, and prepping for negotiations.
I want to see what we did to chini pla ...if same thing chini pla do to amarican fauji what will happen

First will china do it
Second will usa de escalate it
:cruisin2:
 

Sudarshana

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Not yet, i'll believe it when there is an actual military confrontation between PLA & U.S military.
so far it falls in the category of posturing, and prepping for negotiations.
It is posturing and prepping for confrontation not negotiations. If USA balks at this moment then it loses allies like India, Australia, Japan and assorted SE countries. Either China backs off or there will be a conflict.
 

doreamon

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I want to see what we did to chini pla ...if same thing chini pla do to amarican fauji what will happen

First will china do it
Second will usa de escalate it
:cruisin2:
They ll reply i think .. may be sink a ship or two.. Its the same country dropped a nuke on japan and another aftr few days ...
 
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