India-China 2020 Border Dispute - Military and Strategic Discussion

Status
Not open for further replies.

cereal killer

Senior Member
Joined
May 14, 2020
Messages
1,511
Likes
5,396
Country flag
Pakistan is a nuclear power and more powerful conventionally than countries surrounding isreal .. And china is worlds 2nd powerful nation which ll surpass usa gdp with in a decade probably . So comparision of india and isreal shd nt be done .
Israel has no neighbour remotely close to the capability of Pakistan forget about China. They basically bomb those poor a** countries which don't have much superior capability neither to detect or repulse any stealth strike.
This argument is so false that If Israel was instead of India, It would have made China cry.
Only thing we need to learn from Israel is our leadership & think tank need to trust our military & capability more.
 

nick_indian

Regular Member
Joined
May 28, 2013
Messages
554
Likes
1,532
Country flag
A couple of heads or more must roll. It must include the NSA who has been spearheading the China policy. Some heads of intelligence guys must roll, especially those in charge of satellite imagery. If accurate information was passed to the army, heads must roll there too. Heads rolled even in the UPA regime after 26/11. No need to believe that no accountability now exists.
Sounds good but that would mean that they have to first acknowledge the intrusion. Unfortunately that's not good for 56 inches.
 

Immanuel

Senior Member
Joined
May 16, 2011
Messages
2,489
Likes
3,820
Country flag
Israel has no neighbour remotely close to the capability of Pakistan forget about China. They basically bomb those poor a** countries which don't have much superior capability neither to detect or repulse any stealth strike.
This argument is so false that If Israel was instead of India, It would have made China cry.
Only thing we need to learn from Israel is our leadership & think tank need to trust our military & capability more.
Pakistan is a shit hole that can't wage war for longer than 72 hrs. Iran on any given day can be lot more ferocious enemy. Pak only has the Nuke ability but Tehran can easily whip up a Dirty Bomb in no time (if not done already). Israel has it's enemies and most of them don't recognise Israel as a State, so they have a far more complex set of problems to deal with across around 30 countries. So for them, all Islamic nations are pit vipers till there is some form of documented peace treaty and recognition of Statehood. While there is an secretive Alliance with SA and few others to counter Iran, as far as Israel is concerned, trust no body.

So it's utterly silly of you to say Israel only bombs poor ass countries. They are known to come out shooting first and daring air raids and many of the countries can muster plenty of hardware of all types.
 

cereal killer

Senior Member
Joined
May 14, 2020
Messages
1,511
Likes
5,396
Country flag
Pakistan is a shit hole that can't wage war for longer than 72 hrs. Iran on any given day can be lot more ferocious enemy. Pak only has the Nuke ability but Tehran can easily whip up a Dirty Bomb in no time (if not done already). Israel has it's enemies and most of them don't recognise Israel as a State, so they have a far more complex set of problems to deal with across around 30 countries. So for them, all Islamic nations are pit vipers till there is some form of documented peace treaty and recognition of Statehood. While there is an secretive Alliance with SA and few others to counter Iran, as far as Israel is concerned, trust no body.

So it's utterly silly of you to say Israel only bombs poor ass countries. They are known to come out shooting first and daring air raids and many of the countries can muster plenty of hardware of all types.
I get it about Iran they are decent enough power but I'd say not better than Pakistan.
Talking about Poor as* countries I'll tell you
The Egyptians gave Israel a serious set of defeats in the 1973 War, and only by a massive rearming from the US did they hold on and come back in Sinai. They developed effective countermeasures to both Israeli air and armor excellence. They achieved both tactical and strategic surprise against a very wary opponent.

The Syrian effort in Golan began well and was well planned. They too enjoyed some successes, although not to the degree that Egypt had. They also broke through the Israeli defenses, and for a time, threatened to cut off and perhaps capture the major population centers in Northern Israel.
Let's just assume If they had a neighbour like Pakistan in 65 & 71 would they have ever came out victorious? Hell no. At best a stalemate. Uncle Sam would've stayed neutral as he had good relations with both.
Indian Army is heavily underrated. We basically fought off superior Pakistanis in 1965 with almost same numbers in infantry as many were still kept on China front & same in 71.
We should admire their resilience no doubt.
But there is no comparison about whose neighbourhood is most hostile.
 

Waanar

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 4, 2019
Messages
1,310
Likes
5,916
Country flag
Pakistan is a shit hole that can't wage war for longer than 72 hrs. Iran on any given day can be lot more ferocious enemy. Pak only has the Nuke ability but Tehran can easily whip up a Dirty Bomb in no time (if not done already). Israel has it's enemies and most of them don't recognise Israel as a State, so they have a far more complex set of problems to deal with across around 30 countries. So for them, all Islamic nations are pit vipers till there is some form of documented peace treaty and recognition of Statehood. While there is an secretive Alliance with SA and few others to counter Iran, as far as Israel is concerned, trust no body.

So it's utterly silly of you to say Israel only bombs poor ass countries. They are known to come out shooting first and daring air raids and many of the countries can muster plenty of hardware of all types.
Both of these countries are punching way above their weight though. You have to appreciate how Pakistanis have held off India and are set to dominate Afghan government apparatus the same way Iran was set to control Iraq (till US bombed Soleimani) and still has considerable influence there.
There's no comparison between Iran and Pakistan though. Pakistan has survived by whoring itself out to every trillion dollar sugar daddy it could muster it's lady parts for, while Iran came out of a major war in 1989, got placed under severe sanctions by the newly unipolar world's big daddy and faced considerable threat from every neighbor, stable or unstable.
Disagree if you wish but Iran's tenacity has been undeniable here.
 

Indrajit

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 27, 2018
Messages
1,871
Likes
4,425
Country flag
Sounds good but that would mean that they have to first acknowledge the intrusion. Unfortunately that's not good for 56 inches.
It really doesn’t matter even if one argues that all this has happened in “buffer” regions, the fact is that our policy in China has been shown up as stupid and naive. That we have made no plans and provisions for such an eventuality with the alacrity that was necessary suggests failure all round. I’m not one who believes that culling of a few heads necessarily solves the problem which has largely been institutional and for which a substantial portion of the blame also rests at Modi’s over reliance and misplaced confidence on personal relationships, especially with Xi but it is still necessary that some accountability be demanded. Ajit Doval is an extraordinary gentleman but then so was his boss MK Narayanan but there is a time when one has to exit the scene. Best to have new pairs of eyes looking at this and moving on from here. The army is famous for rolling of heads and that will happen, sometimes the wrong heads roll but the concept of accountability exists.

We need new eyes on this from now on and we need to completely jettison the idea that we can reach some ridiculous accommodation with the Chinese where we agree to have our economy raped by them in exchange for them not doing so at the borders. The Chinese have decided that we will bend over at the border just like we bend over for them everywhere else and that there is no reason to humour us and that we need to be put in our place. We have been stupid with China ( that’s been an opinion of mine for years and some of that is evidenced in my posts from before all this) and we now have been made to pay for the idiocy of those who thought that this bending over was some kind of policy. Time to say, enough.
 

cereal killer

Senior Member
Joined
May 14, 2020
Messages
1,511
Likes
5,396
Country flag
It really doesn’t matter even if one argues that all this has happened in “buffer” regions, the fact is that our policy in China has been shown up as stupid and naive. That we have made no plans and provisions for such an eventuality with the alacrity that was necessary suggests failure all round. I’m not one who believes that culling of a few heads necessarily solves the problem which has largely been institutional and for which a substantial portion of the blame also rests at Modi’s over reliance and misplaced confidence on personal relationships, especially with Xi but it is still necessary that some accountability be demanded. Ajit Doval is an extraordinary gentleman but then so was his boss MK Narayanan but there is a time when one has to exit the scene. Best to have new pairs of eyes looking at this and moving on from here. The army is famous for rolling of heads and that will happen, sometimes the wrong heads roll but the concept of accountability exists.

We need new eyes on this from now on and we need to completely jettison the idea that we can reach some ridiculous accommodation with the Chinese where we agree to have our economy raped by them in exchange for them not doing so at the borders. The Chinese have decided that we will bend over at the border just like we bend over for them everywhere else and that there is no reason to humour us and that we need to be put in our place. We have been stupid with China ( that’s been an opinion of mine for years and some of that is evidenced in my posts from before all this) and we now have been made to pay for the idiocy of those who thought that this bending over was some kind of policy. Time to say, enough.
If this standoff prolongs beyond winter too. Then problems will arise. A significant amount of money is spent to support them in winters to keep everything battle ready. Chinese are well connected through railways & whatnot. We on the other hand might be draining our purse more fast. In that case a kinetic action will remain a feasible choice. This can't be the new normal.
 

Shashank Nayak

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 27, 2017
Messages
2,559
Likes
7,925
Country flag
If this standoff prolongs beyond winter too. Then problems will arise. A significant amount of money is spent to support them in winters to keep everything battle ready. Chinese are well connected through railways & whatnot. We on the other hand might be draining our purse more fast. In that case a kinetic action will remain a feasible choice. This can't be the new normal.
They have to expend more money.. to sustain 50000 troops thousands of kilometers away from the hinterland. Tibet is a desert with a population of 30 lakh.. It cant support these extra troops by itself.. Our supply lines are steeper.. but they are much shorter.. BUt, their economy is also bigger.. Permanent large scale deployment on the LAC creates complications during a two front scenario for the chinese, in case Taiwan declares independence. So, neither India nor China wants permanent large scale presence in ladakh.. But, if they dont vacate, we should permanently deploy 3 divisions in ladakh, so that they too suffer..
 

ezsasa

Mod
Joined
Jul 12, 2014
Messages
15,153
Likes
46,746
Country flag
If this standoff prolongs beyond winter too. Then problems will arise. A significant amount of money is spent to support them in winters to keep everything battle ready. Chinese are well connected through railways & whatnot. We on the other hand might be draining our purse more fast. In that case a kinetic action will remain a feasible choice. This can't be the new normal.
On the bright side, every large deployment generates new data on logistics and gaps, which can be used to rectify known problems. system only gets better for actual military conflict with PLA which will happen within this decade anyways.
 

Bhurki

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 27, 2018
Messages
1,174
Likes
1,343
Israel has no neighbour remotely close to the capability of Pakistan forget about China. They basically bomb those poor a** countries which don't have much superior capability neither to detect or repulse any stealth strike.
This argument is so false that If Israel was instead of India, It would have made China cry.
Only thing we need to learn from Israel is our leadership & think tank need to trust our military & capability more.
Israel's neighours are as they are because it played its cards right.

Iraq was literally the 4th largest army on the planet. Egyptians were quite respectable as well. Other countries too, in limited aspect, could create massive problems for it. But because it knows how to maintain superiority in context of
technological (constant r&d),
diplomatic (maintaing US firmly on its side and against every other neighbour),
economical (working hard) and
military (working smart) domains,
it was able to customize the region to its own favour.

India could, through diplomatic and political manuevers, have stopped pakistan's nuclear capabilities in its track, but it didn't strategize on it the best possible way. Military could have been utilized to thwart any progress on pakistan nuclear weapons. And ultimately, economy could have been bolstered to add to comprehensive national power which could call shots around the region at the very least.
 

hit&run

Mod
Joined
May 29, 2009
Messages
9,306
Likes
23,233
Country flag
Intelligence failure is getting recycled by usual suspects. When slapped with facts and examples how modern age armoured or otherwise mobility can surprise even an alert grid they all went into hiding.

Heads must be rolled and replaced by who? LOL.

Two massive threads down these so called whiner can not even see that it is a failure of conventional deterrence which was systemically weekend for the last 15-20 odd years.

The intent and action of current dispensation was always to build that up and to also add component of preemption vis a vis Pakistan. The same whiners opted for knotted tongues when Shukla and his shaggers actually blamed current government for going aggressive at LAC as far as rapid all weather connectivity is concerned.

A loser who can not join two dots of military coming out of barracks and crossing war time lines on two occasions against China lecturing on 56 inch tells a lot about their shallow agenda.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Latest Replies

Global Defence

New threads

Articles

Top