India-China 2020 Border conflict

[Deadtrap]

Yep I made it. The 'New Maja Post' has a mud road connection going to a Chinese village, hence I presumed it as Chinese.

Btw can you post the source of your information ?

Chinese chaps marked that as Indian Maja post on Wikimapia and OpenStreetMap. It’s clearly an Indian post, construction wise very similar to Indian post in South, plus it have two Helipad since that post is air maintained only. The dirt track that you see stops short of last Chinese post indicating its our patrolling route. Chinese never came further south of 28.5837351, 93.4065396 which is its last listening post.

Two Helipad. Distinct from other Chinese post.

 

[Deadtrap]

should seriously consider banning all the imports from china .

You definitely have zero idea abt trade.

 

[Apollo]

It baffles me how they can push so much money in construction in such remote areas. Creating roads, bridges and tunnels are very expensive, time-consuming, and specially arduous in such hostile terrain and climate.

And yet China is doing like they got cheat codes for unlimited resources.

And even if you build a complete township in the middle of nowhere, who will live there? Cut-off from modern society with no clear source of income generated from such villages?



I understand the furor, and I reciprocate the same. However, we need to understand that govt. can only assist armed forces and enable them, and try other diplomatic means.
Tackling China also means building necessary capabilities and infrastructure which has been eroded away due to political unwillingness, lethargy, or straight-up corruption in the last 60 years, which cannot be undone in mere 4-5 years.

Why I appreciate the current govt, is because it has more political will and a clear intention of tackling China (as well as Pakistan), which we lacked severely.

And let's understand, China has come prepared, and I suspect they have been prepared for the same since Doklam for such a misadventure.
And the aggressor always has the advantage of surprise. So if we just blind-charge at them without a clear plan, we will suffer a huge casualty if not defeat.

For how long, hearing the standard responses for decades wrt to China
To be frank, Chenes have mastered the art of wining a war without fighting. CCP know well how to propagate the illusional threat before engaging the adversary on ground. I agree that Chenes have huge resources and shiny toys, but they never fought a war for almost 6 decades & yet to prove on a battle ground both machine and men. Seriously doubt their war capabilities as they not even encountered any counter terror operations.

Why we downgrade ourselves though IA is battle hardened and brave enough to face any adversary . we cannot match the weapon inventory with China, but we have enough arms and soldiers to incur a huge damage. There won't be any clear winner in a conflict , both will suffer huge loss. Backing off without a fight is not a wise decision. We must fight for our land, our maximum restraint for peace & tranquality shud not be considered as our weakness.

 

[ezsasa]

So what is the verdict now. Can anyone detail this controversy of new Chinese village popping out. Is it an intrusion that rNDTV is suggesting to pin it on Modi? BTW rNDTV is known for alarmist pieces against Modi and always trying to unsettle Modi government on Pappu’s behalf. I have been calling at Vishnu Som for many years especially when he use to frequent BRF. He is very cunning and economical with truth person.

If possible please detail it with the help of Maps.

This is CCP-Congi MoU manifesting itself, to gauge the public & GoI response.

Even if they build new infrastructure on area which has been under PLA control since 1959/62, might as well assume “Cho chweet of PLA, they are building things which will be retaken by IA at some point of time in the future anyways”.

 

[ezsasa]

This is something that our experts should throw some light on.
This has been a open question from me for a couple of years, where I am yet to see a satisfactory answer.
simply put “What is the counter to PLA rocket force?” , Especially if the first wave is a rocket wave.

 

[mist_consecutive]

Thats your perspective from chinese perspective they have been doing this since a long time and they except india to back down as in the past , thats why this standoff is going this long. In the end we will just back down. although i do agree this govt. has more guts but banning apps is meaningless gesture. the govt. should seriously consider banning all the imports from china . there is no need to give them billions of dollars every year.

but banning apps is meaningless gesture. the govt. should seriously consider banning all the imports from china

Very myopic view of the situation. It's the same as saying beating thaali does not prevent corona, govt. should take concrete steps, Modi is doing jumlebaazi (and he must regine).

Let me show you a broader picture.

Before the stand-off started, it was presumed that India and China had a non-hostile relationship. Border disputes were there but nothing flared into even close to point of no return. China was a huge trade partner, and China was pushing a lot of FDI into India (which indirectly helped to grow our economy).

Now, after the clashes happened and it was realized Chinese were really determined to pick a fight, it was decided to cut loose and de-couple from the Chinese economy, so that in future conflict they cannot arm-twist us.
The first wave of decoupling and escaping from Chinese clutches was banning social-media apps that were used by the Chinese for snooping and collecting personal data. Many apps can straight-up record your location, contacts, pictures etc, which can act as a powerful tool to collect intelligence.

So no, it was not a gesture, but a national security risk.

Now, coming to banning all imports. Easier said than done. The cloth you wear has yarn imported from China. The medicine you take is made from raw material acquired from China. The phone/internet connection you are using to post, use Chinese components. The list goes on and on.

So why all these materials acquired from China? Govt. has sold the economy to China, reeee.....
Because it is simply cheaper to import from China than to make in-house. And when you go to the market to buy a shirt, medicine or mobile phone, you choose the one cheaper and of higher quality. No one cares if it is made in India, Bangladesh, or China.

But can ONLY china make these? No, but Chinese ones are just cheaper. So to change our supply routes, or manufacture these components in-house, you need time.
And that is why we have not completely banned our imports. We need time to completely decouple our economy from China.

 

[Cruise missile]

 

[hit&run]

This is something that our experts should throw some light on.
This has been a open question from me for a couple of years, where I am yet to see a satisfactory answer.
simply put “What is the counter to PLA rocket force?” , Especially if the first wave is a rocket wave.

The entanglement between nuclear and conventional Rocket force is not suggested by most of the watchers. The conventional Rocket force (DF series) is most relied upon because they do not want to use any of their nuclear Rockets. This conclusion was reached upon by reading promotion and transfer pattern of PLA commanders.

This scenario is best suited for India given our nuke numbers are also small and we also would like to avoid losing our numbers in an exchange.

Now coming back to overwhelming attack on our command and military concentration installations by PLA’s conventional theatre Rocket force.

All the the bets will be on:
Preemption
Manoeuvring
Mobilisation
Mitigation
Replicate

Preempting first, which will also suggest that we have already mobilised, faster mobilisation has been already worked out and improving, AAD/PAD (Indian Ballistic Missile Defence), increasing our own conventional theatre Rocket Force which includes ICBMs.

 

[hit&run]

Mitigation and Replicate are bit ambiguous as of now. No news is a good news but not here given our past record. Therefore I will call upon more informed members to tell us about how fast we are churning out long range ballistic missiles and if they have got any updates about our missile defence shield.

 

[mist_consecutive]

For how long, hearing the standard responses for decades wrt to China
To be frank, Chenes have mastered the art of wining a war without fighting. CCP know well how to propagate the illusional threat before engaging the adversary on ground. I agree that Chenes have huge resources and shiny toys, but they never fought a war for almost 6 decades & yet to prove on a battle ground both machine and men. Seriously doubt their war capabilities as they not even encountered any counter terror operations.

Why we downgrade ourselves though IA is battle hardened and brave enough to face any adversary . we cannot match the weapon inventory with China, but we have enough arms and soldiers to incur a huge damage. There won't be any clear winner in a conflict , both will suffer huge loss. Backing off without a fight is not a wise decision. We must fight for our land, our maximum restraint for peace & tranquality shud not be considered as our weakness.

You are every bit correct. We can stand on our own in a battle.

But, understand that action without a concrete plan and preparation has seldom succeeded. Chinese most probably planned this skirmish since 2017 aftermath Doklam. Since then, they set up camps & barracks for soldiers, acquired necessary equipment (but still miscalculated) among other things.

We were suddenly greeted with the possibility of stationing 40k troops in cold harsh Ladakh winter, which we were not prepared for. Hence, we started to acquire clothes, strengthened the bridges and supply routes, and stockpiled ammo for a 2-front war.

So don't lose your heart yet! We haven't backed out and gifted our rears to China. Expect some action in the coming spring and summer, when we will be better prepared to kick bateaters down the mountains!

 

[Cruise missile]

You are every bit correct. We can stand on our own in a battle.

But, understand that action without a concrete plan and preparation has seldom succeeded. Chinese most probably planned this skirmish since 2017 aftermath Doklam. Since then, they set up camps & barracks for soldiers, acquired necessary equipment (but still miscalculated) among other things.

We were suddenly greeted with the possibility of stationing 40k troops in cold harsh Ladakh winter, which we were not prepared for. Hence, we started to acquire clothes, strengthened the bridges and supply routes, and stockpiled ammo for a 2-front war.

So don't lose your heart yet! We haven't backed out and gifted our rears to China. Expect some action in the coming spring and summer, when we will be better prepared to kick bateaters down the mountains!

Actually we never expected that eastern border will heat up.

 

[Ayushraj]

The entanglement between nuclear and conventional Rocket force is not suggested by most of the watchers. The conventional Rocket force (DF series) is most relied upon because they do not want to use any of their nuclear Rockets. This conclusion was reached upon by reading promotion and transfer pattern of PLA commanders.

This scenario is best suited for India given our nuke numbers are also small and we also would like to avoid losing our numbers in an exchange.

Now coming back to overwhelming attack on our command and military concentration installations by PLA’s conventional theatre Rocket force.

All the the bets will be on:
Preemption
Manoeuvring
Mobilisation
Mitigation
Replicate

Preempting first, which will also suggest that we have already mobilised, faster mobilisation has been already worked out and improving, AAD/PAD (Indian Ballistic Missile Defence), increasing our own conventional theatre Rocket Force which includes ICBMs.

Pla rocket force has a large number of missiles.thats there power

Most probably pla rocket force will use bomber armed to longer range crusie missile to target our facilities. That why we are creating Hardened bunkers for our aircraft.
Pla rocket force will use short range of ballistic msisile armed with convectional warhead to target us.
Pla IRBM and ICBM are for nukes. If you add number of icbm +number of irbm. Number will be close to number of nukes in pla.
Problem with short range missile is 600 will be needed to destroy 3 of our airbases(as claimed by ex air Marshall) pla has about 1000+this kind of missiles.
Jaquar with smart bomb will bbe quiet useful in destroying these short range missile launchers due to it's low flying capability

 

[WarriorIndian]

Pla rocket force has a large number of missiles.thats there power

Most probably pla rocket force will use bomber armed to longer range crusie missile to target our facilities. That why we are creating Hardened bunkers for our aircraft.
Pla rocket force will use short range of ballistic msisile armed with convectional warhead to target us.
Pla IRBM and ICBM are for nukes. If you add number of icbm +number of irbm. Number will be close to number of nukes in pla.
Problem with short range missile is 600 will be needed to destroy 3 of our airbases(as claimed by ex air Marshall) pla has about 1000+this kind of missiles.
Jaquar with smart bomb will bbe quiet useful in destroying these short range missile launchers due to it's low flying capability

IF PLA's Rocket Force if ever comes into action, then the theater of command would go to the Strategic Forces Command and thats something China would never want India to do.

Strategic Forces Command be like

 

[hit&run]

Pla rocket force has a large number of missiles.thats there power

Most probably pla rocket force will use bomber armed to longer range crusie missile to target our facilities. That why we are creating Hardened bunkers for our aircraft.
Pla rocket force will use short range of ballistic msisile armed with convectional warhead to target us.
Pla IRBM and ICBM are for nukes. If you add number of icbm +number of irbm. Number will be close to number of nukes in pla.
Problem with short range missile is 600 will be needed to destroy 3 of our airbases(as claimed by ex air Marshall) pla has about 1000+this kind of missiles.
Jaquar with smart bomb will bbe quiet useful in destroying these short range missile launchers due to it's low flying capability

There are no fool-proof solutions other than keeping a large manoeuvring viable force crossing the border and meeting its objective of reducing PLA foot print on immediate border and beyond.

Rockets must be deterred by Rockets.

No harderned bunkers are going win us the war, neither destroying few Rocket batteries using Air Force. Indian army has to eventually grow few pairs to preempt them and call Chinese bluff with a pretext of fighting a war of attrition.

 

[Ayushraj]

IF PLA's Rocket Force if ever comes into action, then the theater of command would go to the Strategic Forces Command and thats something China would never want India to do.

Pla air force will never want air to air combat with iaf in those high altitude(operating in half of their capability).
Their should be no doubt that pla will use their rocket force in case of war.
India can use brahmos to neutralize their lauchers close to lac.
Even precision guided bomb will also be useful to destroy their lauchers pre Emtively

 

[Ayushraj]

There are no fool-proof solutions other than keeping a large manoeuvring viable force crossing the border and meeting its objective of reducing PLA foot print on immediate border and beyond.

Rockets must be deterred by Rockets.

No harderned bunkers are going win us the war, neither destroying few Rocket batteries using Air Force. Indian army has to eventually grow few pairs to preempt them and call Chinese bluff with a pretext of fighting a war of attrition.

Rockets must be deterred by rockets
Here comes the number game.
China has huge advantage when comes to numbers in case of missile.
Indian ballastic missile are more precise thats only advantage India have.

 

[hit&run]

Rockets must be deterred by rockets
Here comes the number game.
China has huge advantage when comes to numbers in case of missile.
Indian ballastic missile are more precise that only advantage India have.

Yes number game.

Like @mist_consecutive said we have to prepare not rush. And this could very well be the reason we are using restraint.

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

This is something that our experts should throw some light on.
This has been a open question from me for a couple of years, where I am yet to see a satisfactory answer.
simply put “What is the counter to PLA rocket force?” , Especially if the first wave is a rocket wave.

Reverse slope defence

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

Now coming back to overwhelming attack on our command and military concentration installations by PLA’s conventional theatre Rocket force.

All the the bets will be on:
Preemption
Manoeuvring
Mobilisation
Mitigation
Replicate

Replication is served by those dummy inflatable targets DRDO designed and Army never ordered.

The prime aim should be to target the enemy's ISR assets, particularly the ISR assets that target us beyond our tactical battle areas. ECM can be employed. That is the best form of per-emption.

BMD is also very important to defend our critical infrastructure which, unlike other military hardware, can't simply decamp.

 

[hit&run]

Reverse slope defence

A very defensive approach. Will slow counter attack. Only good with small caliber munition like tank and artillery shells not mountain busters.

Avoid force concentration, move first, with air cover after establishing air superiority. Capture and then negotiate. Do not see it as a boxing match but a marathon.