India-China 2020 Border conflict

[mokoman]

Zojila pass is being cleared as we speak (I think already cleared if no new snowstorm). Keylong - Leh route is open, Padum - Nimo, not sure.

We have anticipated the blockage of routes, hence stocked up with rations as well as ammunition. More can be airlifted. Army engineers along with BRO will be responsible for keeping the passes open.

Regarding where re-arrangement can take place, is difficult to say, which is good, because it will be difficult for the Chinese to guess as well.

Ever seen anything in depsang y junction ?

There is supposed to be heavy presence but cant find any changes from last year. @Deadtrap also cant find anything.

I dont think i seen OSINT guys mention it either.

weird right ?

Did GOI manage to talk PLA to move out ? , could have been kept quiet on purpose .


Also is G219 open all year ? , do you know anything about that ? , i am too lazy to look it up myself

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Chinese Communist Party's members have infiltrated UK firms, banks and pharmaceutical giants: Report - Times of India

China News: Amid rising concerns over China's covert intelligence gathering and surveillance activities around the world, it has been reported that Chinese Commun

timesofindia.indiatimes.com

Chinese Communist Party's members have infiltrated UK firms, banks and pharmaceutical giants: Report
Amid rising concerns over China's covert intelligence gathering and surveillance activities around the world, it has been reported that Chinese Communist Party's (CCP) loyal members have been working in British consulates, universities and some of the leading UK companies.
An extraordinary leaked database of 1.95 million registered CCP members reveals how Beijing's "malign influence" now stretches into almost every corner of British life, including defence firms, banks and pharmaceutical giants, Daily Mail reported.
Most alarmingly, some of its members, who swear a solemn oath to 'guard Party secrets, be loyal to the Party, work hard, fight for communism throughout my life...and never betray the Party', are understood to have secured jobs in British consulates.
Among them is a senior official at the British Consulate in Shanghai. The official describes their role as supporting ministers and officials on visits to East China.
The database was originally said to be leaked on Telegram, the encrypted instant messaging app. It was then passed in September by a Chinese dissident to the Inter-Parliamentary Alliance on China, which comprises more than 150 legislators around the world who are concerned by the influence and activities of the Chinese government.
According to the report, a detailed analysis by The Mail on Sunday of the material reveals that pharmaceutical giants Pfizer and AstraZeneca - both involved in the development of coronavirus vaccines - employed a total 123 party loyalists.
The analysis also revealed that there were over 600 party members across 19 branches working at the British banks HSBC and Standard Chartered in 2016.
While there is no evidence that anyone on the party membership list has spied for China - and many sign up simply to boost their career prospects - experts say it defies credulity that some are not involved in espionage.
Responding to the findings, an alliance of 30 MPs last night said they would be tabling an urgent question about the issue in the Commons.
China has upped its espionage activities over the last few years. It has even been accused of political interference in Australia.
Recently, Secretary of State Mike Pompeo urged universities in the United States to scrutinise China's assistance and students, warning that Beijing was set on stealing innovation.
The outgoing top US diplomat made the speech during a visit to Georgia, a state with a growing Asian-American community and which next month holds two runoff elections that will determine which party controls the US Senate.
Writing in The Mail on Sunday today, former Tory Party leader Iain Duncan Smith said: "This investigation proves that members of the Chinese Communist Party are now spread around the globe, with members working for some of the world's most important multinational corporations, academic institutions and our own diplomatic services."
"The Government must now move to expel and remove any members of the Communist Party from our Consuls throughout China. They can either serve the UK or the Chinese Communist Party. They cannot do both," Smith further said.
The Foreign Office last night insisted that it has 'robust procedures in place to keep information secure and to vet staff at our overseas posts'. It is understood they are aware that they employ party members.
However, a senior Whitehall intelligence source said the revelations did raise security questions. "In that station [the official] will be sat one floor away from the MI6 team and could have identified intelligence officers."

With Chinese infiltrating every western country in the world it seems like western security does not exist and
russians during the cold war must not have been as big a threat as the hype made it??

 

[FOXBAT ALOK]

What the T-90S Bhishma is capable of against modern Chinese tanks.

SOURCE : defenceview

In June of this year, Indian and Chinese border guards began to actively to be each other with all the improvised objects,both sides began to rapidly draw powerful armoured fists into the conflict area.

A potential battleground was a salt wasteland in the high-altitude region of Aksai chin in the Galwan valley of Ladakh. The heights here reach 5000 meters above sea level. The Chinese brought their newest lightweight Type-15 tanks, created specifically for the conditions of the highlands.

Chinese Tank Type-15 on a trailer on the way to the Indo-China border
The Indians responded by sending a mixed tank division to the Tibetan mountain lake of Pangong-Soo. It included T-72M1 Ajeya and T-90C Bhishma…

Indian army T-90s MBT during army day parade
These machines have a Russian pedigree, although they are assembled in the Indian city of Chennai (formerly Madras).

T-90 tanks at the Awadi plant assembly plant in Chennai.
If the parties had decided to open conflict, as has happened many times in history, Chinese and Russian vehicles of the third tank generation would have clashed on the battlefield for the first time. Let’s try to guess what the outcome of this meeting could be.

Indian army T-90s during Republic Day parade
The T-90C Bhishma appeared in Indian armed forces at the very beginning of this millennium. India Currently operates 2011 T-90S ‘Bhishma’ which were procured in three separate orders. Two batches (124 Russian built tanks and 186 tanks to be built in India in 2001 and a further 124 Russian built tanks and 223 tanks to be built in India in 2007) were purchased from Russia. Heavy Vehicle Factory (HVF) at Avadi has delivered 24 tanks in 2009-10; 51 in 2010-11; another 50-100 were supposed to be delivered in 2012. A further 1,000 were to be produced locally by 2020 under a deal in 2004. Of those, the first batch of 10 were delivered in August 2009. A ₹13,448 crore (US$1.9 billion) purchase of 464 new T-90MS tanks for 8 tank regiments for the China border has been approved and reportedly signed as of early November 2019. The Indian Army has announced plans to procure driver’s night sights based on uncooled thermal imaging technology for 1,400 of its T-90S tanks in order to permit full night operations. As an alternative to the capricious and expensive “Arjun,” the Indian military decided to purchase a Russian T-90.

India knows the capabilities of Russian armored vehicles well, and the T-72 was at that time the most massive tank of the Indian army. Local engineers provided the T-90 with French sights, an upgraded Russian 125mm 2A46M-5 gun, and a number of small additions, such as an automatic loader and a remote anti-aircraft gun. In addition to the letters and digital designations, the tank was named “Bhishma” in honor of the noble hero of the Indian epic “Mahabharata”. Its local modification of the T-90MS is now considered by specialists to be one of the most effective machines for action in the highlands around the world.

Indian T-90MS at an altitude of 4700 meters.
The Chinese Tank Type-15 (VT-5) is the newest product of the military industry of the CCP. It was first shown in public during the grand military parade in honor of the 70th anniversary of the People’s Republic of China, in October 2019.

Type 15 at the parade.
It is believed that in the design of this machine Chinese engineers for the first time seriously moved away from the concepts of the Soviet tank school and did something original. By weight, the “Chinese” is not close to the general modern tank, but to the classic “Thirty-four”. It is at least ten tons lighter than Bhishma and has its own armor protecting only from small shells, bullets and shrapnel. The Chinese specialists hope to overcome the lag from heavier brethren at the expense of overhead elements. But even with them, the protection of the Chinese baby is not particularly inspiring, although it is not easy to call it too. It is doubtful and rifled 105mm gun, based on an outdated British gun, and even additional anti-tank missiles do not save.

Type 15 tank
Type-15, in significant quantities seen on the entrances to the Aksai chin region, loses to the “Indian” in all basic parameters, except, perhaps, the mobility and thrust of the engine. But how these benefits will affect the Tibetan cramps is a big question. Most likely, China does not expect to seriously fight on them with the Indians and arranges inspections for future potential buyers.

PLA Type-99 MBT during Military Parade

A much more dangerous opponent of the Indian “Bhishma” can be considered Type-99, the main Chinese tank, and its numerous modifications. Like the Indian tanks, type-99 tanks are based on the constructive solutions of the Soviet T-72. The Chinese in the Tibetan Highlands to date Type-99 has not yet been seen. Comparative analysis of the T-90 and Type-99, as well as the main battle tank Al-Khalid, the Army of Pakistan, we will conduct in one of the future materials.

 

[Yash Patel]

Ever seen anything in depsang y junction ?

There is supposed to be heavy presence but cant find any changes from last year. @Deadtrap also cant find anything.

I dont think i seen OSINT guys mention it either.

weird right ?

Did GOI manage to talk PLA to move out ? , could have been kept quiet on purpose .


Also is G219 open all year ? , do you know anything about that ? , i am too lazy to look it up myself

You won’t find any intrusion in Depsang because the situation is different compared to other locations!

In other locations PLA is inside our territory but in Depsang when they see that we are coming for patrolling they come to Y-Junction and block our patrolling party after this we follow a procedure called banner drill where we display banners then both armies dis-engage.

In addition, current Government is not responsible for what is happening in Depsang sector because they built road in year 2010-2011 inside our territory leading up to Y-Junction therefore it enables Swift Movement of PLA and then government did nothing!

I hope it’s now clear that why we are not witnessing any buildup inside our territory in Despang because there isn’t any!

 

[mokoman]

You won’t find any intrusion in Depsang because the situation is different compared to other locations!

In other locations PLA is inside our territory but in Depsang when they see that we are coming for patrolling they come to Y-Junction and block our patrolling party after this we follow a procedure called banner drill where we display banners then both armies dis-engage.

In addition, current Government is not responsible for what is happening in Depsang sector because they built road in year 2010-2011 inside our territory leading up to Y-Junction therefore it enables Swift Movement of PLA and then government did nothing!

I hope it’s now clear that why we are not witnessing any buildup inside our territory in Despang because there isn’t any!

we follow a procedure called banner drill where we display banners then both armies dis-engage.

Yea man , i am aware of that .

Except after they came in riot gear and beat our people up.I doubt we would be doing any fancy drills,.

News says we purposely stopped going up to Y junction in order to avoid confrontation with PLA.

Considering the construction and camps they setup in galwan , and IA/ITBP + PLA presence around Pangong Tso , its really kinda weird to see that we cant find any real sign of PLA.

We surpised and took occupied heights in Pangong Tso , so why didnt we do same in Y Junction ??

i am guessing they are there , free sat images are too shitty to see them ,

OR like in galwan we came to agreement . both sides stay away , and we cant patrol our own lands.

 

[Shashank Nayak]

Man. Have you noticed the increasingly harsh words from India, towards China, after Russia/Sergey lavrov said that India is being involved in the Indo pacific as per Washington's games against China.. And now this, Jaishankar saying Sergey lavrov / Russia to be living in Denial.. This is hard foreign policy...

Jaishankar:

"Indo-Pacific is an emphatic statement that doesn't artificially separate [India/IOR] from the Pacific ocean and those countries."

"Only a person in denial of globalization will actually contest Indo-Pacific"

Thats hard on Russies and Chinks...

 

[Aniruddha Mulay]

What the T-90S Bhishma is capable of against modern Chinese tanks.

SOURCE : defenceview

View attachment 70462

In June of this year, Indian and Chinese border guards began to actively to be each other with all the improvised objects,both sides began to rapidly draw powerful armoured fists into the conflict area.

A potential battleground was a salt wasteland in the high-altitude region of Aksai chin in the Galwan valley of Ladakh. The heights here reach 5000 meters above sea level. The Chinese brought their newest lightweight Type-15 tanks, created specifically for the conditions of the highlands.

Chinese Tank Type-15 on a trailer on the way to the Indo-China border
The Indians responded by sending a mixed tank division to the Tibetan mountain lake of Pangong-Soo. It included T-72M1 Ajeya and T-90C Bhishma…

Indian army T-90s MBT during army day parade
These machines have a Russian pedigree, although they are assembled in the Indian city of Chennai (formerly Madras).

T-90 tanks at the Awadi plant assembly plant in Chennai.
If the parties had decided to open conflict, as has happened many times in history, Chinese and Russian vehicles of the third tank generation would have clashed on the battlefield for the first time. Let’s try to guess what the outcome of this meeting could be.

Indian army T-90s during Republic Day parade
The T-90C Bhishma appeared in Indian armed forces at the very beginning of this millennium. India Currently operates 2011 T-90S ‘Bhishma’ which were procured in three separate orders. Two batches (124 Russian built tanks and 186 tanks to be built in India in 2001 and a further 124 Russian built tanks and 223 tanks to be built in India in 2007) were purchased from Russia. Heavy Vehicle Factory (HVF) at Avadi has delivered 24 tanks in 2009-10; 51 in 2010-11; another 50-100 were supposed to be delivered in 2012. A further 1,000 were to be produced locally by 2020 under a deal in 2004. Of those, the first batch of 10 were delivered in August 2009. A ₹13,448 crore (US$1.9 billion) purchase of 464 new T-90MS tanks for 8 tank regiments for the China border has been approved and reportedly signed as of early November 2019. The Indian Army has announced plans to procure driver’s night sights based on uncooled thermal imaging technology for 1,400 of its T-90S tanks in order to permit full night operations. As an alternative to the capricious and expensive “Arjun,” the Indian military decided to purchase a Russian T-90.

India knows the capabilities of Russian armored vehicles well, and the T-72 was at that time the most massive tank of the Indian army. Local engineers provided the T-90 with French sights, an upgraded Russian 125mm 2A46M-5 gun, and a number of small additions, such as an automatic loader and a remote anti-aircraft gun. In addition to the letters and digital designations, the tank was named “Bhishma” in honor of the noble hero of the Indian epic “Mahabharata”. Its local modification of the T-90MS is now considered by specialists to be one of the most effective machines for action in the highlands around the world.

Indian T-90MS at an altitude of 4700 meters.
The Chinese Tank Type-15 (VT-5) is the newest product of the military industry of the CCP. It was first shown in public during the grand military parade in honor of the 70th anniversary of the People’s Republic of China, in October 2019.

Type 15 at the parade.
It is believed that in the design of this machine Chinese engineers for the first time seriously moved away from the concepts of the Soviet tank school and did something original. By weight, the “Chinese” is not close to the general modern tank, but to the classic “Thirty-four”. It is at least ten tons lighter than Bhishma and has its own armor protecting only from small shells, bullets and shrapnel. The Chinese specialists hope to overcome the lag from heavier brethren at the expense of overhead elements. But even with them, the protection of the Chinese baby is not particularly inspiring, although it is not easy to call it too. It is doubtful and rifled 105mm gun, based on an outdated British gun, and even additional anti-tank missiles do not save.

Type 15 tank
Type-15, in significant quantities seen on the entrances to the Aksai chin region, loses to the “Indian” in all basic parameters, except, perhaps, the mobility and thrust of the engine. But how these benefits will affect the Tibetan cramps is a big question. Most likely, China does not expect to seriously fight on them with the Indians and arranges inspections for future potential buyers.

PLA Type-99 MBT during Military Parade

A much more dangerous opponent of the Indian “Bhishma” can be considered Type-99, the main Chinese tank, and its numerous modifications. Like the Indian tanks, type-99 tanks are based on the constructive solutions of the Soviet T-72. The Chinese in the Tibetan Highlands to date Type-99 has not yet been seen. Comparative analysis of the T-90 and Type-99, as well as the main battle tank Al-Khalid, the Army of Pakistan, we will conduct in one of the future materials.

On paper atleast, the T-90S Bhishma falls a bit short when compared to Type 99A2.
That said, Arjun Mk1A is more than a match for the Type 99A2 only if the Indian Army is to upgrade its infra in Ladakh to 70ton category which will facilitate deployments of MBT Arjun.

 

[Indrajit]

Any ban of Huawei by GOI will have nothing to do with the Local courts in India.

Rather, China will promptly go to the WTO and seek a ruling there - specifically GATT Article XXI.

The WTO does not have a court or is a court. It has a committee to deal with disputes called the Disputes Settlement Body. Appeals from this body goes to a seven member committee.

Under WTO rules, countries are not allowed to discriminate against each other and reject imports from a specific country but they can seek an exemption on “national security” grounds.

In 2019, Australia banned Huawei from its 5G network rollout. China promptly went to the WTO and is putting up nasty fight.

Similarly, China will drag, US, UK, Japan etc to WTO over Huawei. I am not sure China will win but it is and will get nasty.

Maybe the GOI is taking a ‘nuanced‘ approach with Huawei.

The reference context was to what if they went to the Supreme Court. This also followed a comparison with the Vodafone case. Also a ban on an existing company operating in India is within the jurisdiction of Indian courts, if the company wishes to appeal.

The Chinese could always go to the WTO but that’s not a place where anything seriously gets done when national security is invoked as you have also alluded to. Under the WTO rules, Pakistan had to give India MFN, didn’t happen. There is no enforcement that will happen even if the WTO rules against you. All, that will happen is that China would then have grounds to take retaliatory actions, I dont think anyone in this situation cares much about that.

India and Australia are different situations, the Chinese leverage against India is infinitely weaker because they run a massive surplus with us. We will always have more to target. Not so with Australia where the Chinese have the upper hand.

 

[hit&run]

Man. Have you noticed the increasingly harsh words from India, towards China, after Russia/Sergey lavrov said that India is being involved in the Indo pacific as per Washington's games against China.. And now this, Jaishankar saying Sergey lavrov / Russia to be living in Denial.. This is hard foreign policy...

Jaishankar:

"Indo-Pacific is an emphatic statement that doesn't artificially separate [India/IOR] from the Pacific ocean and those countries."

"Only a person in denial of globalization will actually contest Indo-Pacific"

Thats hard on Russies and Chinks...

India must keep it's security interests asynchronous to it's international relationships.

Be if it is Quad, strategic partnership with Russia or all the pacts made with the USA; our relationships must be described best as transactional.

One must discuss all the details vis a vis changing geopolitical scenarios where we find ourselves not getting what was expected but remain assured that we have it in our control by simply tweaking the following.

When there are strong military alliances and strong trust among the partners backed by plain black and white converging interests to the level of even sharing the blue prints you raise the tactical offence meter high.

When your alliances are under stress or are being tested to losen up the commitments you increase the strategic offence meter which includes nuclear card brought out on the table.

Last but not least there will never be conducive alignments ever which we can avail or wait to then punish the aggressors. If we are thinking like this and I am worried that it may be the case with both our polity and security establishment then we will be doomed for sure.

I have read many elaborated posts in an anticipation of our military offences along LAC here on this forum connecting all external and internal factors including electoral politics with it. This is the most apologetic and sad way of analysing or projecting our military might.

There can be only 3 factors which decide how our nation’s war making decisions are taken.

1. Geography 2. Gun powder 3. Weather (we must be all-weather fighting force).

Politician will/are never ready to escalate.

 

[Pugilist]

The reference context was to what if they went to the Supreme Court. This also followed a comparison with the Vodafone case. Also a ban on an existing company operating in India is within the jurisdiction of Indian courts, if the company wishes to appeal.

The Chinese could always go to the WTO but that’s not a place where anything seriously gets done when national security is invoked as you have also alluded to. Under the WTO rules, Pakistan had to give India MFN, didn’t happen. There is no enforcement that will happen even if the WTO rules against you. All, that will happen is that China would then have grounds to take retaliatory actions, I dont think anyone in this situation cares much about that.

India and Australia are different situations, the Chinese leverage against India is infinitely weaker because they run a massive surplus with us. We will always have more to target. Not so with Australia where the Chinese have the upper hand.

The issue is not a ban on a company in India. The issue is forbidding Huawei to participate in 5G rollout in India.

If this this done, on what basis will Huawei go to the Supreme Court. You appear to say they can - under what Indian law can they? I don’t see any and would be grateful if you point one out to me?

The Vodafone case was a pure tax case relating to Indian tax laws and then about retrospective changes to the tax laws by the government in its favour. It is therefore clearly subject to the Indian legal processes which Vodafone vigorously engaged in.

Tik Tok et al ban was pursuant to s69A of the Information Technology Act 2000. Although decisions pursuant to this section can be reviewed in the Supreme Court, the Court’s 2015 decision in Shreya Singhal upholds validity of s69A and any bans under this section by the GOI. Plus this section and decision making pursuant to it is, rightly, very opaque and heavily stacked in the GOIs favour as it pertains to issues of national security.

Why do you think Tik Tok has not gone to the Supreme Court- because they will get no where and it will be futile.

A ban on Huawei cant happen under s69A of the Information Technology Act 2000. Rather, it will be a general government decision to deny an ‘import of services’. Such a decision is the GOI acting within the course of its executive function.

Hence, the WTO appears to be China’s only recourse if the GOI ‘bans’ Huawei from 5G.

If this were to occur, like Australia and other western countries, Huawei will still be free to operate in the domestic market but it really will not be worth their while. They will scale back operations significantly like they are doing in these countries.

There is immense pressure on 5 eyes countries + Japan (who is a de facto 5 eyes member) from USA to ban Huawei from their 5G networks. They have started to do so. China’s recourse is only WTO.

India does not have such significant pressures from the US, It therefore appears to be taking a more guarded and nuanced approach but one that will ultimately rule out Huawei from the Indian 5G spectrum.

 

[Shashank Nayak]

This is serious. Considering the amount of US Hardware with turkey, guess this might cripple their military.. Guess its time to go full atmanirbhar

 

[Shashank Nayak]

This is serious. Considering the amount of US Hardware with turkey, guess this might cripple their military.. Guess its time to go full atmanirbhar

Indian Foreign Maal military be like..

 

[Mikesingh]

You won’t find any intrusion in Depsang because the situation is different compared to other locations!

In other locations PLA is inside our territory.

Inside our territory? Really? Where? Unless you mean the entire Aksai Chin which Nehru gifted to the Hans on a silver platter. Other than that please tell us where the PLA is in 'our territory'? Before answering, please note the difference between 'lines of perception, no man's land, claim line, and LAC'.

 

[Mikesingh]

This is serious. Considering the amount of US Hardware with turkey, guess this might cripple their military.. Guess its time to go full atmanirbhar

Pakis are going to get nightmares as the Turks will now not be permitted to sell weapon platforms like attack choppers, ships, etc to them.

 

[cannonfodder]

India should have secured some GE engine orders before change in presidency. That is main concern that I have right now.

 

[Cruise missile]

This is serious. Considering the amount of US Hardware with turkey, guess this might cripple their military.. Guess its time to go full atmanirbhar

There goes all Turkish dreams.

 

[Blue Water Navy]

@Mikesingh @Cruise missile

Aap log na mane kuch bhi ?! huh?!!

To keya hua "Turkish dream" gone..

Porkio ne firse baap badal lena hai...

And also can anybody explain what 'SSB officer sanctions' that were mentioned in the tweet?

 

[Cruise missile]

@Mikesingh @Cruise missile

Aap log na mane kuch bhi ?! huh?!!

To keya hua "Turkish dream" gone..

Porkio ne firse baap badal lena hai...

And also can anybody explain what 'SSB officer sanctions' that were mentioned in the tweet?

In Turkey, Presidency of Defense Industries (formerly Undersecretariat for Defence Industries; Turkish: Savunma Sanayii Başkanlığı (SSB)) is a civil institution established by the government to strengthen its national security industry and manage the system and supply of military technology.

In addition to supporting projects and products based on domestic design and production, SSB gives importance to technological transfer of products or services acquired from foreign suppliers.

 

[Deathstar]

Remember we will be sanctioned as well. So what happens to all those C130s , C17s , chinooks , apaches, M777s , Tejas MK1A , AMCA etc etc....Congress has passed a mandatory sanctions bill

 

[Maharaj samudragupt]

Remember we will be sanctioned as well. So what happens to all those C130s , C17s , chinooks , apaches, M777s , Tejas MK1A , AMCA etc etc....Congress has passed a mandatory sanctions bill

Apache have come .
C 17 have come c130 have come .
Chinook will arrive shortly .
Tejqs Mk 1a is indegnios