India-China 2020 Border conflict

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Cactus09

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I disagree. It's our enemy, the normal expectation should be they'll perform nefarious stuff. Calling it backstab means we trusted them at some point and that's incomprehensible when it comes to your enemies, particularly when it's the kind like China and Russia, and Pakistan.

And no, it took months to expand camps, build blacktops etc. If we had ejected them the first time they came dragging their cheap materials, we'd not be staring at so much effort it'll take to dislodge them now. The result of waiting for enough resources is that now we're confronting a full scale camp, in multiple.

Oh yeah, and the unbridled optimism is going to help eject Chinese with power of faith in MEA now. A few random people salwar shivering won't do anything. It's MEA and MoD who is shivering for no reason and precipitated the whole thing. Instead of handling Chinese with kid gloves a few bullets from start would have kept them in check much better. They're still shivering and putting out lame duck statements after every meeting.

It's not the Chinese I'm afraid of. They're enemies. They need to be eliminated. It's our own politicians and beureucracy that I'm afraid of sabotaging our national interests.
Again. What part of " they came prepared to occupy. " did you not understand? I hope you realize how stupid your arguments sound. You have to be ready for escalation right after the forst shots are fired. We would have suffered heavy losses if it happened then. In military circles, following protocols and laid out norms is of utmost importance. Men are willing to sacrifice over it. Thats what separates mere hooliigans armed with guns or militants with a real professional army. Adhering to that keeps peace intact. Even in the case of Pakistan. Otherwise instead of artillery shells being fired daily, you would have have Pinakas and Prithvis being exchanged on a daily basis. Its very easy to sit behind a pc or a phone and comment whatever garbage comes into your mind. Completely different thing to be in the ground and handle things yourself. Its the job of MEA bureaucracy to talk in ways which some people might feel are weak or " dhoti shivering". They buy time. And they have been doing it very well since the crisis erupted. If the politicians wanted to budge, it would have happened already. Geopolitics is not your strong area clearly.
 

etantra

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People of the ancient and medieval world had very little knowledge and had to make up stories to fill the voids in their understanding of the earth
so all those amazing temples were built by aliens.

FFS, some of them like, the Kailasa Temple can't be built even today. Forget whole temple, some of those pillar or roof carvings by itself can't be done.
 

Poseidon

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so all those amazing temples were built by aliens.

FFS, some of them like, the Kailasa Temple can't be built even today. Forget whole temple, some of those pillar or roof carvings by itself can't be done.
They can be easily built today as long as someone is willing to fund it. Carving are easy too with advanced digital engineering.

I can give more details but that would be off topic for thread.
 

Mikesingh

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Recently we saw a video of Chinese soldiers crying on being deployed to India border. Whether that video is real or fake, I think is besides the point. The point is that Chinese soldiers cannot be as motivated as the Indian soldiers to go to icy cold heights and spend lots of time there.

Most Chinese soldiers seem to sign up to ease their college fees. While it may seem a good deal while deployed in the mainland, it may not seem such a good deal when deployed in the icy heights of Ladakh. This will in turn impact future PLA recruitment after the current recruits go back and recount their horror stories.

When an Indian soldier signs up, he is already aware of Siachen etc and the possibility of getting deployed there. He is mentally ready. He never hoped to get deployed only in Tamil Nadu or Kerala, most of the soldiers expect to get deployed to the North as that is where our boundaries are.

Another aspect is that India has a hot LOC with Pakistan and Indian soldiers are used to dealing with that - in terms of attrition, logistics and such. The Chinese are not. The stress of feeling that bullets could come at any time from any where - this is not something the Chinese are used to.
What are the consequences for quitting the PLA or refusing to join?

The poor conscript faces a total of eight penalties that include:

1. A two-year ban on foreign travel.
2. Ban on traveling within China on planes, long-distance trains or buses.
3. Ban on buying real estate.
4. Refused loans or insurance.
5. Opening a business.
6. Enrolling or studying in college or secondary school.
7. Will not be permitted to get a government job for life, even as a temporary worker. And that includes any government enterprise in a country where a large chunk of industry is state-run.
8. There will also be a financial cost: a $4,000 fine plus the reimbursement to the military of $3,750 for costs incurred during his short time as a soldier, including "a political examination," his medical examination, travel and living expenses, as well as bedding and clothing.


In addition, he will also face public shaming: his actions and punishments will be published via television, newspapers and social media.

So, it would be suicide to even think of quitting the PLA within the conscripted period of 4 years or refusing to join!!
 

Poseidon

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No they can't.. It has not be scientifically demonstrated for same use case, so your claim has no basis.
Yes they can. They are all pretty simple construction.

Anyways we should discuss this in another hread
 

etantra

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Yes they can. They are all pretty simple construction.

Anyways we should discuss this in another hread
np, Kailasa temple is carved top down on a single rock. and this is a huge temple.

Lets see proof of your claim, show it for a 1000 cubic metre rock?

PS : yeah another thread but I need to call out the pretend rationalist who think throwing buzzwords make them wise.
 

Poseidon

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np, Kailasa temple is carved top down on a single rock. and this is a huge temple.

Lets see proof of your claim, show it for a 1000 cubic metre rock?

PS : yeah another thread but I need to call out the pretend rationalist who think throwing buzzwords make them wise.
Nothing hard or complicated. If you are willing to fund enough trained sculptors (really costly). Can be done very easily. Infact rock cutting machines nowadays make it far far easier along with computerized modelling.

Only reason they won't is that it will require huge labour cost (around $500 million for building a similar temple)
 

Bhadra

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Lets be brutally honest here. The Chinese came prepared for the long haul. They had everything in place to build things very quickly. They have been preparing for this for a long time. Some say even right after Dokalam. We had no idea what the hell was going on in the first place. And by the time we mobilized, they already had strengthened their positions. No one was ready for the backstabbing of the Chinese. But the good part is now they are going to lose more through readjustments everywhere. Cos we are prepared now. Fully. Being a pessimist and having a meltdown even when a Chinese soldier farts does not help anyone.
Let us first be brutally frank in understanding the difference between India and the Chinese approaches to managing LAC.

From the Chinese perspective, PLA is the sole and supreme agency in managing Tibet. All others like their diplomatic Corps, Economic wings, Tibet administration etc are in aid of PLA in Tibet. PLA has a unique relation with CPC . PLA has a controlling stake in CPC as also CMC. Hence, it can influence the decision making right from Top to the execution level. PLA thus an along-term perspective, institutional memory and continuity in the subject matter.

On the other hand, our borders are straggly a cake which everyone wants to have but no one wants to really eat. MHA feels that they are the sole owner of borders and some strange, nonexistence international norms and practices are tom tomed to support such a practice. MHA strangely calls it border management. Then MoD is also responsible for borders especially for India's territorial sovereignty and integrity. MoD calls it Defense of Borders. Here a straight away distinction has been introduced in management / policing and Defence of borders, Very wrong and unfounded perceptions exist for doing that such as the economy of effort and cost involved wherein Police Forces draw significantly larger emoluments than Army.

Then there is IB and other intelligence agencies there who spy more on their own Army rather than the enemy. On top is MEA Mandarins who feel India's external Borders are under their jurisdiction and poke their noses in every conceivable slit.

The borders of India is thus a very hotchpotch and a bugger's muddle, a vagabond's Mela where who comes and who goes, who does what and who fails to do - nothing is fixed, nothing is known, there is no inter-agency coordination, there is no singularity of policy, direction and no unity of command. In fact the concept of unity command has been outrightly rejected by bureaucracies and political leadership has so far is unable to take political decision .

In a country where CSG has to be convened to decide if the Indian Army can be permitted to build some bunkers on a hill can not expect its agency on the ground to have any functional autonomy, initiative, strategy or tactics.

It is this flawed approach of the Union Govt which plays in the hands of Bureacracry and unable to exercise political control over competing bureaucracies that have let our Armed Forces down time and again. Right from Kashmir operations, 1962, 1965 or Kargil or Chinese intrusions - all are simply bureaucratic muddles. Abject interference by Civialn Babus and abject failures of Police agencies including intelligence that has been wreaking havoc on our Defence of the country and Armed Forces.

74 years of Congress rule of the country has thoroughly muddled the National Security structure so much so that no is responsible, nobody knows what is happening and no singular agency is there to decide what should be happening.. So places like Ladakh are big mela where ITBP goes right when the Army wants to go left. Intelligence agencies go down to Patal Loka and MEA goes to heaven.

How can they ever deal with an agency like PLA. Impossible.
 

etantra

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If it's an earthquake, then why there was a sonic boom or something like it.

I believe actual reason is ki Shiv ji prakat hue hain India ko help karne ke liye againist chya
talking of mystical stuff, came across this in May 2020

I laughed at it even though I hoped for it.. I just couldn't see how Point 1 could happen..

But now I can see it.

PS : never done a Astrological reading but I have been fortean enthusiast for long & don't mind jostling with skeptics on fortean phenomena on a unbiased platform

Copying from a comment in YT
**
Very informative predictions. Very decisive decade till 2030 that will change the World. Good to know that:
1) China will break into 5 countries.
2) Tibet will get its Independence.
3) Pakistan will be taken care off.
4) US influence will diminish in world just like UK
5) Most Importantly Modi ji will come back for 3rd term but will take retirement mid-way and become sanyasi.
6) Ayurved is gain significance
7) Communism (whatever is left) will collapse
8) Capitalism will collapse
9) Hindu dharmik model of commerce will be the only model to survive.
10) Trump to lose upcoming US election will end up in a mental asylum kind of place in a decades time.
11) There will be war in middle east
 

fire starter

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Let us first be brutally frank in understanding the difference between India and the Chinese approaches to managing LAC.

From the Chinese perspective, PLA is the sole and supreme agency in managing Tibet. All others like their diplomatic Corps, Economic wings, Tibet administration etc are in aid of PLA in Tibet. PLA has a unique relation with CPC . PLA has a controlling stake in CPC as also CMC. Hence, it can influence the decision making right from Top to the execution level. PLA thus an along-term perspective, institutional memory and continuity in the subject matter.

On the other hand, our borders are straggly a cake which everyone wants to have but no one wants to really eat. MHA feels that they are the sole owner of borders and some strange, nonexistence international norms and practices are tom tomed to support such a practice. MHA strangely calls it border management. Then MoD is also responsible for borders especially for India's territorial sovereignty and integrity. MoD calls it Defense of Borders. Here a straight away distinction has been introduced in management / policing and Defence of borders, Very wrong and unfounded perceptions exist for doing that such as the economy of effort and cost involved wherein Police Forces draw significantly larger emoluments than Army.

Then there is IB and other intelligence agencies there who spy more on their own Army rather than the enemy. On top is MEA Mandarins who feel India's external Borders are under their jurisdiction and poke their noses in every conceivable slit.

The borders of India is thus a very hotchpotch and a bugger's muddle, a vagabond's Mela where who comes and who goes, who does what and who fails to do - nothing is fixed, nothing is known, there is no inter-agency coordination, there is no singularity of policy, direction and no unity of command. In fact the concept of unity command has been outrightly rejected by bureaucracies and political leadership has so far is unable to take political decision .

In a country where CSG has to be convened to decide if the Indian Army can be permitted to build some bunkers on a hill can not expect its agency on the ground to have any functional autonomy, initiative, strategy or tactics.

It is this flawed approach of the Union Govt which plays in the hands of Bureacracry and unable to exercise political control over competing bureaucracies that have let our Armed Forces down time and again. Right from Kashmir operations, 1962, 1965 or Kargil or Chinese intrusions - all are simply bureaucratic muddles. Abject interference by Civialn Babus and abject failures of Police agencies including intelligence that has been wreaking havoc on our Defence of the country and Armed Forces.

74 years of Congress rule of the country has thoroughly muddled the National Security structure so much so that no is responsible, nobody knows what is happening and no singular agency is there to decide what should be happening.. So places like Ladakh are big mela where ITBP goes right when the Army wants to go left. Intelligence agencies go down to Patal Loka and MEA goes to heaven.

How can they ever deal with an agency like PLA. Impossible.
question is what BJP is doing to ractify it. In all your all posts u blame bureaucracy and intelligence agencies but fail to provide solutions.
 

Bhadra

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Coupta argues that the Chinese strategy is to "raise the costs of the status quo for India." I don't buy this. All India has to do is widen its income tax net (which is already happening), and it will have the capital to match the "raised" costs. We're only taxing a single-digit % of the population, and there are a billion+ potential taxpayers. We can more than afford this, even if the LAC becomes as militarised as the Korean DMZ. In fact, the Chinese threat would kick our defence procurement apparatus out of complacency, and they'd motivated to build a domestic military industrial complex to make things affordable (vs. procurement of foreign hardware). Chinese wouldn't want that.

So I think China has a different objective. They want to use military force to re-shape the border to their favour. They're not in this for the long haul, they're in this for immediate territorial gains, and right now faced with an Indian resistance, they're stalling. You don't park huge mechanized formations out of their barracks and into forward bases, if you're in for a "long haul."

Not China, but we ourselves have raised the costs of management of borders significantly by creating difference between border management and Defence of Borders.

For example - there are fifteen battalions of ITBP in Ladakh. For those fifteen battalions, there six SAGs, about fifteen Commandants, Two to three IGs, One Command HQ in Chandigarh and lot of other associated staff and organisation.

This expenditure is being borne when those fifteen battalions could have been simply placed under command existing Army Brigades in Ladakh and entire Army setup used for administration and logistic functions for those fifteen battalions.

But everyone has established their shops in Ladakh and doing whatever they want. We have thus seen instances when ITBP gives a secret Map to the journalists in their exuberance for cheap and false media story.

Whenever a illmeaning journalist like Sekhar Gupta says something like Cost, economy, agencies, border management - one must always suspect some one has payed him to tout a particular line for a particular purpose. After the cost I am sure he will make a case for having another fifteen battalions of ITBP for Ladakh and removal of "costly" army from there.

Such has been the misdeeds of this darbari pen selling Padam Awardee journalist.
 

etantra

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Nothing hard or complicated. If you are willing to fund enough trained sculptors (really costly). Can be done very easily. Infact rock cutting machines nowadays make it far far easier along with computerized modelling.

Only reason they won't is that it will require huge labour cost (around $500 million for building a similar temple)
You make empty claims hiding under modern technology. These have not been demonstrated.

The original point was nothing of value existed in ancient/medieval times. The presence of these temples prove that to be a lie. It shows that there existed an eco system where people were willing to spend big money on things like this. Only a prosperous & peaceful society indulges in such things. The individual sculptures there shows the livestyles of the people who lived then. Again showing the prosperity of the place. These were not 1-2 yr projects as well.

Again, my aim is to expose the lie that things were abysmal in earlier times and the stories are all fiction. Not responding to this topic any longer, think I made my point.
 

etantra

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question is what BJP is doing to ractify it. In all your all posts u blame bureaucracy and intelligence agencies but fail to provide solutions.
that would only be known years down the line.

What we know is they are competent as is evident by the actions taken until now. So we can expect better on this too.
 

Knowitall

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They are all old men now, they weren’t that always and I think that regardless of our personal like or dislikes, we should treat a former distinguished CoAS with respect due to him. The General has his view, should be easy to figure out since he mentions that there was correspondence which much still be on record. This was official correspondence, not just hearsay which could be dismissed as “he says, he says.”

In any case, Gen V.N.Sharma hailed from an incredibly distinguished military family with one of his brothers also being a Lt.General and the other being Major Somnath Sharma, India’s first Param Vir Chakra recipient for his actions at the battle of Badgam.(curiously, the Param Vir Chakra was designed by his brother’s mother in law)

Gen. JFR Jacob had a different view of FM Maneckshaw, Gen.V.N Sharma has one of Gen.Sundarji. The truth may hold in either versions or more likely, partly in both. Let’s leave it at that. The good General has earned his right to his opinion and while we can disagree based on our preferences, let’s treat the General with respect. He and his family have earned that.

Btw, this is a link to an interview of the two brothers, both looking incredibly fit for their age.
Can you or anyone tell exactly what the controversy is and what is going on?
 

Poseidon

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You make empty claims hiding under modern technology. These have not been demonstrated
This like saying that a an MIT electrical engineer is inferior to a local electrician bevause the MIT fellow hasn't demosntrated how to repair a ceiling fan.

We don't need to demonstrate how to cut rocks as we doing stuff a million times more advanced.

Just like level 4 civilizations on Kardashev scale won't need to demosntrate how to build planes as they simply warp space and time.
 

etantra

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This like saying that a an MIT electrical engineer is inferior to a local electrician bevause the MIT fellow hasn't demosntrated how to repair an electrical fan.

We don't need to demonstrate how to cut rocks as we dping stuff a million time smore advanced.

Just like level 4 civilizations on Kardashev scale won't need to demosntrate how to build planes as they simply warp space and time.
strawman
 

Bhadra

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question is what BJP is doing to ractify it. In all your all posts u blame bureaucracy and intelligence agencies but fail to provide solutions.
The solution lies in defining the problem.
The solution lies in establishing the unity of Command.. bureaucratic interests can not be allowed to supersede national interests...
If Union Cabinet and BJP as a party function based on Unity of Command why can not our border management work under a singular agency.?

Everyone knows the solution. BJP itself seems to have been compromised by bureaucracy and so far Modi govt does seem to be in the clutches of bureaucracy..
Sad but true...
 
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etantra

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1)i don't think its a climbdown for India
2)china meekly accepting it has found its match and china can't bulldoze like it did with many countries in South China sea Propaganda is not doing any impact on Indian military on the other hand its becoming comical especially in India and rest of the world
the more issue gets dragged it will be difficult for china to explain to its impatient people who are waiting for swift and decisive victory

3)China i think is waiting for Us eclections to get over and have friendly Kamala harris govt when they announce war on India
This the other side that Indians need to know..

The more this drags out the more India is Hyphenated with China..

Western media reports it as fight btw 2 superpowers. This is pissing off CCP and chinese who have been fed the propaganda India is inconsequential.

Hopefully it turns on a switch in Indians as well who keep repeating India is 1/5th propaganda devoid of context.
 
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