India-China 2020 Border conflict

[Sanglamorre]

Without going into a lengthy answer, this PM and team has already done 370, TTT and NEP 2020 and so on.....do you think babus were 100% for it? If so it would have happened decades ago. You are overestimating technocrats and expertise.....one needs a good goal, intention, common sense and as much info as possible about a scenario/situation and reasonable experience in this case its running a state or country. Technocrats are not necessarily the CEO's or the richest people by their invention, it the guy that buys the patent from them and knows how to use it.

They have good advisors on that front maybe? Except NEP, both are somewhat political decisions which BJP itself has decent experts on.

Foreign relations and all that? I'm not of that at all. In fact I'm guessing this is coming from RSS/BJP itself seeing the Ram Madhav tweet deletion. Their political experts effective in intra country matters are actively discouraging things when it's about China.

 

[Sanglamorre]

A politician of calibre can always smell the rot in a bureaucrat.. And the PM can always avail expertise from outside the bureaucracy ..

Better experts in foreign relations than the service created for it?

Does any country have better non diplomatic stream people with better cred than trained diplomats?

 

[Suryavanshi]

Without going into a lengthy answer, this PM and team has already done 370, TTT and NEP 2020 and so on.....do you think babus were 100% for it? If so it would have happened decades ago. You are overestimating technocrats and expertise.....one needs a good goal, intention, common sense and as much info as possible about a scenario/situation and reasonable experience in this case its running a state or country. Technocrats are not necessarily the CEO's or the richest people by their invention, it the guy that buys the patent from them and knows how to use it.

I am talking about the Historic rot in the bureaucracy itself.
Which Babus bright idea was to Reduce the Border Infra development from 2008 to 2014.
Did the Army Demand it? Did Manmohan made it a policy? someone with a bright mind thought we building forward infra would anger China, this was their way of avoiding an inevitable war.

 

[omaebakabaka]

They have good advisors on that front maybe? Except NEP, both are somewhat political decisions which BJP itself has decent experts on.

Foreign relations and all that? I'm not of that at all. In fact I'm guessing this is coming from RSS/BJP itself seeing the Ram Madhav tweet deletion. Their political experts effective in intra country matters are actively discouraging things when it's about China.

To your first point, bell curve is applicable in most random samples especially people. So why would a PM pick a bad advisor or keep one knowingly? He probably set a task and wouldn't take a no, so it happened. This is the only reliable guess, rest about babu efficiency or intentions is ranked later in the sequence. Babu's have no choice when PM has the gut instinct or goal to go after (good or bad within law).

Your 2nd point, foreign policy is not just controlled by internal politics as it has to deal with outside partners, treaties and laws. It can not change overnight but as far as borders are concerned, they come under soverign and the ball is always in PM's court. It is his judgement and resolve that matters the most....one can't just look at a win everytime either and reject some loses as that is unrealistic.

 

[omaebakabaka]

I am talking about the Historic rot in the bureaucracy itself.
Which Babus bright idea was to Reduce the Border Infra development from 2008 to 2014.
Did the Army Demand it? Did Manmohan made it a policy? someone with a bright mind thought we building forward infra would anger China, this was their way of avoiding an inevitable war.

GOI is the public face and ultimately answerable to people of India not babus. Babus are glorified clerks but they do have a boss. Congress governments historically were weak when it comes to generating practical results in the military sphere, only our armed forces due to their effectiveness came back from the brink almost every time. That's why efficient, nationalistic but practical PM would make a difference to get rid of our historical rot.

 

[ezsasa]

I am talking about the Historic rot in the bureaucracy itself.
Which Babus bright idea was to Reduce the Border Infra development from 2008 to 2014.
Did the Army Demand it? Did Manmohan made it a policy? someone with a bright mind thought we building forward infra would anger China, this was their way of avoiding an inevitable war.

Manmohan singh made it a policy.

 

[Bhadra]

Depsang Entanglement​

Depsang Entanglement is a classical example of the real intent and purpose of Chinese military games they have been playing with India - to show Indian down and tell India there are no match for China. Defeat the Indians in the Mind.

The honorable RM sid in Rajya Sabha " Bharat Ki Sena Ko koi taqat Patrolling Karne Se Nahin Rok Sakti".

Which patrolling was he referring to? Obviously the patrolling by ITBP to patrolling points 10 to 13 in Depsang plains.

In Apr May 2013 The PLA intruded in large numbers in Depsang, Southern portion of DBO Bawl, and stayed there at the junction of Raki Nullah and Jeewan Nullah, about 18km inside the Indian perception of Lac. Indian troops used to go the Bottle Neck or Y junction in vehicles and after that go to patrolling points on foot as the road existed only up to Y junction. The Chinese troop styed at Bottle neck for a long time and after some negotiation withdrew to their side,

After 2013, whenever the Indian side reach ner the Y junction the Chinese appear from their posts across the LOC and block Indian patrols at Y Junction and Do not allow them to proceed any further.

The Chinese have neither constructed any structure on the Indian side of LAC nor occupied any part of it. But whenever our patrols approach Y junction they hurried come and block any further movement. That is why "Na Koi Ghussa Hai Na Kabje Men Hai". Also, that is the relevance of the "Bharat ki Sena ki Patrolling Ko koi Rok Nahin Sakta" statement.

Why Chinese Act is Dangerous

Apart from demoralizing the troops on the ground and Indian leadership in Delhi, Chinese activities are dangerous from this perspective;
* Proximity to Road DSDBO and danger to it being blocked.
* Ease of operation to launch an offensive towards Murgo thereby completely cutting off entire DBO/SSN. Bothe the road axis that is DSDBO and Khargungla - SeserLa merge at Morgo,
* Develop and progress operations towards Serla and Capture Siachin Base.

Link Road River post - Depsang and Murgo and maintain forces all along Seserla axix right up to Siachin base..

Thus it may be seen that this Chinese action is directed less at DBO and more towards Murgo and needs to cleared. Strange that the previous govt under MMS just kept quiet on that. Our MEA Babus must have made at least a hundred trips to China since then at the cost of GoI..

You know why lumps like Shukla and Panag are quite about it ?? Losers..

 

[spikey360]

Spikey Darling,

Hague conventions and treaties are meant for law abiding countries... not rogue CCP .. when will we understand and stop quoting these treaties...

Easy for us to say. Will Modi follow suite? I have no problem in not following any law and jump into a full scale war without any kind of diplomatic warning.
I think in your over-enthusiasm, you are forgetting to think through the legal implications of such a move. I am not against war. Crush the Chinese, Rape them harder than Nanking, but do it with an Ultimatum, that is how wars are started. If you think Modi will forego all the goodwill he has built up so far in the international community just for a pack of riff-raff Chine militia, you are extremely wrong. He will fight a war and he will fight it if necessary following all rules of engagement. It is only cowards who suggest breaking rules of engagement, like CCP.

Can we approach the intergalactic supreme court if these conventions are not followed?

Thank you for making my evening. I laughed hard, though I cannot rebut you and waste my evening.

Germany under Hitler invaded soviet union without a declaration of war.. Strong Nations follow rules only when it suits them.

Is that why US served ultimatums to Iraq and Afghanistan before crushing them under the wheel?

 

[Haldilal]

Depsang Entanglement​

Depsang Entanglement is a classical example of the real intent and purpose of Chinese military games they have been playing with India - to show Indian down and tell India there are no match for China. Defeat the Indians in the Mind.

The honorable RM sid in Rajya Sabha " Bharat Ki Sena Ko koi taqat Patrolling Karne Se Nahin Rok Sakti".

Which patrolling was he referring to? Obviously the patrolling by ITBP to patrolling points 10 to 13 in Depsang plains.

In Apr May 2013 The PLA intruded in large numbers in Depsang, Southern portion of DBO Bawl, and stayed there at the junction of Raki Nullah and Jeewan Nullah, about 18km inside the Indian perception of Lac. Indian troops used to go the Bottle Neck or Y junction in vehicles and after that go to patrolling points on foot as the road existed only up to Y junction. The Chinese troop styed at Bottle neck for a long time and after some negotiation withdrew to their side,

After 2013, whenever the Indian side reach ner the Y junction the Chinese appear from their posts across the LOC and block Indian patrols at Y Junction and Do not allow them to proceed any further.

The Chinese have neither constructed any structure on the Indian side of LAC nor occupied any part of it. But whenever our patrols approach Y junction they hurried come and block any further movement. That is why "Na Koi Ghussa Hai Na Kabje Men Hai". Also, that is the relevance of the "Bharat ki Sena ki Patrolling Ko koi Rok Nahin Sakta" statement.

Why Chinese Act is Dangerous

Apart from demoralizing the troops on the ground and Indian leadership in Delhi, Chinese activities are dangerous from this perspective;
* Proximity to Road DSDBO and danger to it being blocked.
* Ease of operation to launch an offensive towards Murgo thereby completely cutting off entire DBO/SSN. Bothe the road axis that is DSDBO and Khargungla - SeserLa merge at Morgo,
* Develop and progress operations towards Serla and Capture Siachin Base.

Link Road River post - Depsang and Murgo and maintain forces all along Seserla axix right up to Siachin base..

Thus it may be seen that this Chinese action is directed less at DBO and more towards Murgo and needs to cleared. Strange that the previous govt under MMS just kept quiet on that. Our MEA Babus must have made at least a hundred trips to China since then at the cost of GoI..

You know why lumps like Shukla and Panag are quite about it ?? Losers..

@Bhadra kya mujhe aap yeh bata sakte he ki is there anyway to push the Melcchas out of the bottle neck through the military means.

 

[Sarjen]

What are the possibilities of Chinese launching an offensive right before the winter to capture territories??

 

[Suryavanshi]

@Bhadra kya mujhe aap yeh bata sakte he ki is there anyway to push the Melcchas out of the bottle neck through the military means.

Mah mate they are here to stay, they are not gonna go out only a full armor assault or anti armor assault can bore result but that would spiral into a war. The Fingers don't have much strategic significance in comparison to DBO, here is where the our side is asking for de-escalation.
Their purpose in DBSO is to secure CPEC, by capturing Siachen and then the entire crown of Kashmir.

 

[Haldilal]

Mah mate they are here to stay, they are not gonna go out only a full armor assault or anti armor assault can bore result but that would spiral into a war. The Fingers don't have much strategic significance in comparison to DBO, here is where the our side is asking for de-escalation.
Their purpose in DBSO is to secure CPEC, by capturing Siachen and then the entire crown of Kashmir.

MBRLs? Pinaka Mk 1 Mk 2 will work here? How about CAS full scale war.

 

[omaebakabaka]

Mah mate they are here to stay, they are not gonna go out only a full armor assault or anti armor assault can bore result but that would spiral into a war. The Fingers don't have much strategic significance in comparison to DBO, here is where the our side is asking for de-escalation.
Their purpose in DBSO is to secure CPEC, by capturing Siachen and then the entire crown of Kashmir.

You are correct, thats why we should make their advantage moot by actually going into POK especially when China gets tied up somewhere else.

 

[ezsasa]

I am talking about the Historic rot in the bureaucracy itself.
Which Babus bright idea was to Reduce the Border Infra development from 2008 to 2014.
Did the Army Demand it? Did Manmohan made it a policy? someone with a bright mind thought we building forward infra would anger China, this was their way of avoiding an inevitable war.

Fundamental question is much more broad.

When did India ever have a long term strategic vision for itself? My argument is never. Most of the times our strategic are reactionary.

Bureaucracy aligns itself as per the strategic goals of the nation, without a direction chaos is imperative.

Counter arguments can be made that, it’s been only 30 years of economic reform and only 15 years of last big change in strategic direction.

There is no point in blaming X or Y group.

I say most fundamental thing we have to start with is for the Indian citizens to figure out where do they want the country to be in 10 and 30 and 50 years from now. This fundamental debate has to start today, if people are clear about it then the bureaucracy and politicians will align themselves to the goal. I asked this question before here at DFI before as well, I am yet to see a meaningful debate at any level of public discourse.

There is only one group in the country who have absolute clarity on what they want in 25 to 50 years timespan, that is Breaking India forces. Rest are running around like headlines chickens just reacting to events, and busy critiquing everybody else but themselves.

 

[Suhaldev]

The Wire: The Wire News India, Latest News,News from India, Politics, External Affairs, Science, Economics, Gender and Culture

t.co

 

[Cheran]

What are the possibilities of Chinese launching an offensive right before the winter to capture territories??

Most critical period would be the dates of the US elections. There is lots of controversy going on there with respect to mail ballots/ballot harvesting etc. If the results are not overwhelming for either then it could be decided in the mail ballots. This could delay counting. Also the current supreme court justice has passed away (liberal) & apparently she had a last wish that next judge be nominated only by the new president. All these will create more problems between RW & LW there, we can expect a lot of rallies, counter rallies, fights etc. US admin would be completely engaged in this scenario. China might make a "spectacular" move during this time.

Any members from US posting here for more inputs? We need to track this, if the elections there would be a smooth affair or not this time.

The Wire: The Wire News India, Latest News,News from India, Politics, External Affairs, Science, Economics, Gender and Culture

t.co

Fifth column activated

 

[pruthvi24]

The Wire: The Wire News India, Latest News,News from India, Politics, External Affairs, Science, Economics, Gender and Culture

t.co

Looks like Chinese Gandhis are honoring the commitment made in the MOU with 'C'omm'UN'isT party of China hence this Codemnation by Press council

 

[ataru09]

Is that why US served ultimatums to Iraq and Afghanistan before crushing them under the wheel?

I am sure that evidence would be presented at the intergalactic supreme court when China crashes through our borders without a declaration of war.

Are you a south block babu? Astonishing that you think a piece of paper with literally no means of enforcement is something you would put a wager on.

 

[Bhadra]

F1ck the so called Chinese sensitivities.

Did the bat munchers care for our sensitivities while:-
1. Salami slicing all these years
2. Selling weapons/nuke/missile tech to Pakeez
3. Unwavering diplomatic support for Pakeez
4. Hafiz saeed affair in UN
5. Support for north east terror groups etc

Frack the babooze.

Modi should have over ruled them.

What will the Chinese do that they have not done before?

There are two facts concerning your anguish ;

* Firstly Congress developed in India from birth till independence as a party of Indian elites playing the role of a Darbari Organisation doing Sazadas to British empire in place of earlier Muslim / Mogul empires. Their sole aim was to inherit and rule India. The aim was "rulership" rather than "nation-building" . That was also the root cause of disputes between Indian Muslim and Hindu elites leading to a breakup by division.

* Having got hold of "Rulership" this group of elites that includes bureaucracy was busy in Regime Continuity rather than building norms of Indian nationalism. Hence national honour, prestige and pride was subordinated for Regime perpetuation. Nehru and subsequent rulers including our bureaucracy accepted being bullied, sidetracked, insulted, being shown down and being surrounded from all sides by China.

Chinese aims since rise of Communist power has been focussed and very singular - to make China the lord of Asia and then the superpower of the world. Keeping that in view all their action after 1950 onwards has been to demolish the "image"of India. demoralise India in all spheres, by all means, and win the war without fighting. One swift operation of 1962 demolished the "world Leader" Nehru... Our great Congress PM like Indira or Rajiv or MMS could not even mimic in front of the Chinese.

The recent upsurge in Nationalism is the largest threat to China. And its architect - Narendra Modi is at the target of the Chinese. The old culture and bureaucratic setup is a big collaborator by nature and ethos. Instead of targeting China some of them may be targeting Modi who has become a troublemaker for their status and power - their rulership even if under Chinese suzerainty.

Rest all is bunkum. Depsang, PengangTso etc are guns directed at the emerging image of India and her leadership...

The threat is bigger and larger.. It is a very big responsibility of all who think and care about the nation to rise up and be counted.

 

[captscooby81]

Japan former PM visited Taiwan for memorial prayer of their leader and meet Taiwanese President .

Abe San visited Yasukuni Shrine yesterday first time after 2013 ,chinese sentiments gets more hurt with this than Dalai lama

USA also sent state level secretary to Taipei and also going to soon sign F-16 contract

both these countries have trade tie up with CCP which are much much larger in scale than India vs CCP trade .

But that didn't stop them from showing some interest towards Taiwan , Trump is negotiating trade deal with CCP at the same time trying to sell F-16 to Taiwan .

What stops us from even responding to a bday wish or even talking about Dalai lama , whole world knows he lives in India and is very popular why try to act as if we don't know there is someone by name Dalai lama living here.

Fucking porki pigs never shy's away from even publicly lauding terrorist pig like Hafeez or Azhar and here we are so scared to even recognise a spiritual leader .

China is supporting NE terrorist for so long , Did opening up of our economy to these peking pigs stopped it ? they also support Porki every time from FATF to UN in raising kashmir issue or even blocking blacklist .

China has clearly kicked us saying we are not equal to them and we should settle for two level lower status and here we are trying to keep china and its sentiments above our head and dance .

if card is to be played, might as well use it for maximum impact.

Taiwan is not just a india Issue, many other countries take a similar stand.

Me thinks US will push for entrance of Taiwan into global diplomatic round table after elections, of course conditions apply I.e trump win.