India can beat Asian peers, even China: Morgan Stanley

badguy2000

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Most of the exports of China are low cost goods like shoes, textiles, toys etc. Walmart and $ stores in North America are filled with Chinese goods.

Now why would you need to import raw materials for such things?
you conclusion is based a wrong data.

well, only 10-15% of chinese total export are "low-cost goods like shoes ,textile and toys"
,although those low-cost industry indeed provides many jobs.

most of chinese export are mid-tech mechanical & electronical products.



Secondly, do you have any statistics to support your theory of value addition?
sorry, to increase your knowledge and keep you away from ignorance is not my duty...

if you really want to know more about it, pls read more articles on FT or WSJ.

GDP itself is a concept of addtional value ,but it is very funny that many people like compare the absolute value of export with GDP....



Thirdly, regardless of whether or not you're adding value to the finished product, you're still exporting it overseas to earn foreign exchange. That is what drives your factories and generates employment to rural and semi-urban Chinese workers on a large scale. If your customers in the west suffer from a recession, the effect is going to be felt on poor Chinese workers-they will lose their jobs or be forced to work for less pay. I don't see how "absolute value of exports" vs "additional value of exports" makes any difference in this case.
well, finially ,you get something right!

the shut of coastal low addtional-value factory has not much direct damage to chinese GDP,but the increase of related layoff indeed is a big headache.

that is why chinese government makes out a stimulus of 4 trillion RMB.

the 4 trillion MB is pouring into thousands of huge projects like High-speed railways, airports, expressways, huge seaports,huge dams.....etc. any of those huge projects can provide thousands of jobs and decrease layoff.
 

badguy2000

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India built the 5986 Km long Golden Quadrilateral of National Highways in 6 years.

Golden Quadrilateral - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
1. Indian criterion of " highway " is too loose.

if measued by Chinese criterion, most of India's "high-way " can be labeld as " no-way",because those "indian highways" are not paved.

if measued by Chinese criterion, india has only 200 KM long expressway and your proud Golden Quadrilateral" can be just labeld as "county-level highway"


2. India's speed of construction is too slow.

India spent 6 years in finishing 5986 KM "Golden Quadrilateral" ,which just can be labeled " county-level highway" by Chinese criterion.

However, every year ,Chinese can finish 6000 KM long real expressway ,let alone other highways like national way and province-level highway"

if at the current speed, the gap between the two countries will be widened day by day.
 

Daredevil

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1.additonal value: the new value created by manufacturing;
absolute value= the cost of purchased material + additional value.

For example, you purchase 8000 USD material and produce 10000 USD shoes.
then the absolute value of your products is 10000 USD while the additional value is only 2000 USD.
Badguy, you are creating the additional value by assembling/making things, be it electronics, shoes, textiles etc from raw materials which for most part is imported from other countries. The additional value that is created by chinese labor is a result of idea of american business men sitting in US not the chinese and the americans will get the major chunk of that additional value as a profit. The only thing chinese end up getting is labor wages and small profit to the local guys.

For example; you assemble an apple computer from the components you make in China and the value of at the end of day is, lets say $600, but the americans will sell it in other places for $1200. The $600 profit made will go to americans not Chinese. All you can do is make profit out of those first $600 portion which in any case will be very marginal.

2, chinese export is about 1.5trillion usd,about 30%+ of CHinese 4.3 trillion GDP . it is very high.
Official estimates say that 40% fo Chinese economy is export driven.

3.but the additional value of chinese 1.5 trillion export is not as much as you think,because many material of export are imported .
Exactly, see my first point

4. the ratio of "absolute value/ GDP" is a joke.:2guns:
Well, that is how growth of an economy is measured whether you like it or not. Chinese were thumping their chests when the growth rate was going around 10-11% in past few years but when it goes down to 6% you say it is nonsense.:blum3:
 
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JattDaDanda

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yes, infrastructure is not very hard to build.

to build 60000 KMs long expressway,China just took only 20 years and USA just took only 40+ years.

if india were to start the tide of construction as harsh as Chinese did, then India would have 60000 KM long exressway when you and I retime in 20 years.

it is indeed not very long....
hey baby china Welcome to new New world called...Mew Asian Era where they don't give a damn abouth labout rate ......because they know INDIA is ready to step on whatever.....Western ldies have to bring on the table.... defenetion means you are in some serious trouble, bECAUSE india WANTS TO GUARANTEE THAT IF IN case china thinks that it..... controls ASIAN ecocnomy then , china is fooling it self. India is taking all steps it can to fuk chinese market itself......keeep living in the dream my ****** boy, but soon will know that , they r not the only ones who are in the ASIAN market.
 

badguy2000

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Badguy, you are creating the additional value by assembling/making things, be it electronics, shoes, textiles etc from raw materials which for most part is imported from other countries. The additional value that is created by chinese labor is a result of idea of american business men sitting in US not the chinese and the americans will get the major chunk of that additional value as a profit. The only thing chinese end up getting is labor wages and small profit to the local guys.
here ,you have got something right.

in fact, the additonal value that the labour-dense factories create is just a very small section of chinese 4.3 trillion GDP.

But those factories indeed provide lots of jobs.





Official estimates say that 40% fo Chinese economy is export driven.


Exactly, see my first point



Well, that is how growth of an economy is measured whether you like it or not. Chinese were thumping their chests when the growth rate was going around 10-11% in past few years but when it goes down to 6% you say it is nonsense.:blum3:
the slowdown of CHinese economy today is the dual consequence of both crisis and CHinese " cooling fire policy" in 2008.

Before October ,2008, Chinese government tried its best to brake the economy by all kinds of " cooling fire policies" ,such as raising rate ...

when the harsh brake policy got effective , the Lehman got bankrupty and pull china into crisis.
 
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JattDaDanda

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here ,you have got something right.

in fact, the additonal value that the labour-dense factories create is just a very small section of chinese 4.3 trillion GDP.

But those factories indeed provide lots of jobs.







the slowdown of CHinese economy today is the dual consequence of both crisis and CHinese " cooling fire policy" in 2008.

Before October ,2008, Chinese government tried its best to brake the economy by all kinds of " cooling fire policies" ,such as raising rate ...

when the harsh brake policy got effective , the Lehman got bankrupty and pull china into crisis.
exactly my dear friend. 40% of chinese export is no where to production......due to no more exportation. which resulsted in chinese defence emport to drop 30% for future. Now you are going to say, how does chinese imports drops 30% just do the math ur self becaise.....if no one buys ur bootlegged shit in world market, you don't make money..
 

thakur_ritesh

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as the case were to be, time has shown india has surged ahead mainly because of huge internal consumption as a percentage of our gdp and this shows the consumption patterns in the country still remain high even with retail and corporate credit taking a beating but this sector is still growing though not as much as it was doing in the past. one can hope the talk of rs10,000 crores influx in the public sector banks will help increase the lending amount in the retail market and the banks do not sit on this cash as they have done in the past one year or so. in favor of china it was argued to death that exports do not contribute as much as a percentage of gdp as was being made out to be and there was a stream of articles saying the same and that too not in such a distant past with all the leading journals, consultancy houses going by the theory but as the facts stand and something i have always believed in, they were to take this beating because of excessive dependence on exports as a factor of their gdp. china and their supporters then took to saying that they were trying to cool down the growth rate from the highs of 11% that it witnessed last fiscal, but their aim was to slow it down to 9-10% but as the economic slump hit the scene they talked about 9%, then when they were severely hit they pulled the figure down to 8%, and the story continued and today they are struggling to maintain the rate higher than 6%, on the contrary india had been written off by putting a figure of 4% growth rate for the present fiscal which today stands revised at around 6-7% and some even go on to say we could do over 7%, just these predictions for the two countries tell a story of their own. look at a very interesting point daredevil made the other day, india put in around 60,000crores(12.5b usd) into the economy on the contrary china announced a total package of 585b usd and still india clocked 5.8% to prc's 6.1%, another set of figures that tell a story of their own, adding to this india grew to 5.8% from 5.3% just a quarter before compared to prc hitting downwards to 6.1% from 6.8% just a quarter before. look at the number of layoffs in the two countries and you will find another story there, look at the number of factories closed in the two countries and the story telling continues. these figures would have by now put to rest the argument that prc is not as much dependent on exports and that their economy will not get effected by the economic downturn as was being claimed all this time.

will india beat prc or wont is something i do not intend to get into because many times in the past such stuff has been written and the india has not done the same till date, and it is best left for tomorrow to give us the answers, and as it is i do not have much faith in all these experts who are generally experts for just name sake. my aim was to show what has happened and few of the tall claims of prc really never held ground.
 

badguy2000

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as the case were to be, time has shown india has surged ahead mainly because of huge internal consumption as a percentage of our gdp and this shows the consumption patterns in the country still remain high even with retail and corporate credit taking a beating but this sector is still growing though not as much as it was doing in the past. one can hope the talk of rs10,000 crores influx in the public sector banks will help increase the lending amount in the retail market and the banks do not sit on this cash as they have done in the past one year or so. in favor of china it was argued to death that exports do not contribute as much as a percentage of gdp as was being made out to be and there was a stream of articles saying the same and that too not in such a distant past with all the leading journals, consultancy houses going by the theory but as the facts stand and something i have always believed in, they were to take this beating because of excessive dependence on exports as a factor of their gdp. china and their supporters then took to saying that they were trying to cool down the growth rate from the highs of 11% that it witnessed last fiscal, but their aim was to slow it down to 9-10% but as the economic slump hit the scene they talked about 9%, then when they were severely hit they pulled the figure down to 8%, and the story continued and today they are struggling to maintain the rate higher than 6%, on the contrary india had been written off by putting a figure of 4% growth rate for the present fiscal which today stands revised at around 6-7% and some even go on to say we could do over 7%, just these predictions for the two countries tell a story of their own. look at a very interesting point daredevil made the other day, india put in around 60,000crores(12.5b usd) into the economy on the contrary china announced a total package of 585b usd and still india clocked 5.8% to prc's 6.1%, another set of figures that tell a story of their own, adding to this india grew to 5.8% from 5.3% just a quarter before compared to prc hitting downwards to 6.1% from 6.8% just a quarter before. look at the number of layoffs in the two countries and you will find another story there, look at the number of factories closed in the two countries and the story telling continues. these figures would have by now put to rest the argument that prc is not as much dependent on exports and that their economy will not get effected by the economic downturn as was being claimed all this time.

will india beat prc or wont is something i do not intend to get into because many times in the past such stuff has been written and the india has not done the same till date, and it is best left for tomorrow to give us the answers, and as it is i do not have much faith in all these experts who are generally experts for just name sake. my aim was to show what has happened and few of the tall claims of prc really never held ground.
well ,i respect your "non-bigmouth" attitude,although I don't accept your pointview..


what India is short of are the straight guys like you who keep themselves away from big mouth and work hard..
 

p2prada

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what India is short of are the straight guys like you who keep themselves away from big mouth and work hard..
Normally, we take the easy way out and outsource manufacturing to China. This way the Chinese get to work hard while the other countries reap all the profits. It's called working smart.:)
 

badguy2000

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Normally, we take the easy way out and outsource manufacturing to China. This way the Chinese get to work hard while the other countries reap all the profits. It's called working smart.:)
economy is a fair play ..no pains ,no gain.

1.west guys live more cozyly today, not due to their "working smart",but because their fathers and grandfather worked hard and left them thick fat.

the so called " working smart" make jobs in developed countrieds flow into China and make their industry base weakened.

In short time, it seems that Chinese work hard and gain little and west guys gain much by working smart".


but in long term, when the fat their elder left is gone, west guys would get to know what is " no pains, no gains".

the collapse of GM is just the first step.


2. today ,chinese work hard ,disregarding little repay ,just in order to let our kids live better and easier.
we know that our hard work won't be waste, when we see how china is being rapidly transformed .+
When we kid grow up, they can also "work smart" and needn't work so hard as their fathers.



3. Indian's fathers and grandfathers didn't leave indian people much fat as west people fathers did. however Indian people seems to appreciate west guys' " working smart"....

it seems very ironics.
 

MMuthu

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Always work smart..... not Hard.... The Chinese and Indian Farmers always ploughed the land for ages..... the west used tractors and other equipments and see the output.....

I heard some 10 years before USA used to dumb the old food stock in ocean...... but half China and India Starved..... They have progressed only because of the Natural resources and Brains..... Not 100% Hard work.

Yes we need to work Hard..... but not all the time.

Also west is shifting jobs to China only because China is Cheap..... not that it cannot be done by People in US
 

badguy2000

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Always work smart..... not Hard.... The Chinese and Indian Farmers always ploughed the land for ages..... the west used tractors and other equipments and see the output.....

I heard some 10 years before USA used to dumb the old food stock in ocean...... but half China and India Starved..... They have progressed only because of the Natural resources and Brains..... Not 100% Hard work.

Yes we need to work Hard..... but not all the time.

Also west is shifting jobs to China only because China is Cheap..... not that it cannot be done by People in US
well, just as I posted , jobs are shifting from west to China, not only due to china's cheap labour,but because china is the only perfect combination of cheap labour, good infrastructure and full industry chain.

the cheap labour is the common shared by all developing countries.

But the good infrastructure and full industry chain are what Chinese earn by "hard work"

"working smart" can not work out good infastructure and full industry chain.:blum3:
 
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well, just as I posted , jobs are shifting from west to China, not only due to china's cheap labour,but because china is the only perfect combination of cheap labour, good infrastructure and full industry chain.

the cheap labour is the common shared by all developing countries.

But the good infrastructure and full industry chain are what Chinese earn by "hard work"

"working smart" can not work out good infastructure and full industry chain.:blum3:

China is not cheap labor anymore they have risen to an international level , the advantage of developing third world cheap labor is gone and will make China more and more unattractive as other cheaper countries are found

the infrastructure buildout was the reason for the high growth rate in china now that's built and it's more expensive to maintain the costs go up to export another negative for Chinese exports

full industry chain is ok only if it reduces costs, it may even be a disadvantage many American car parts are made in many other countries and only assembled in USA , so even this can serve to be an increase in cost of the final product another disadvantage for exports

the importers don't care about workers,infrastructure or industry chain just one thing cost, if it's cheap get it or find another cheaper place.
 

p2prada

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economy is a fair play ..no pains ,no gain.

1.west guys live more cozyly today, not due to their "working smart",but because their fathers and grandfather worked hard and left them thick fat.

the so called " working smart" make jobs in developed countrieds flow into China and make their industry base weakened.

In short time, it seems that Chinese work hard and gain little and west guys gain much by working smart".


but in long term, when the fat their elder left is gone, west guys would get to know what is " no pains, no gains".

the collapse of GM is just the first step.


2. today ,chinese work hard ,disregarding little repay ,just in order to let our kids live better and easier.
we know that our hard work won't be waste, when we see how china is being rapidly transformed .+
When we kid grow up, they can also "work smart" and needn't work so hard as their fathers.



3. Indian's fathers and grandfathers didn't leave indian people much fat as west people fathers did. however Indian people seems to appreciate west guys' " working smart"....

it seems very ironics.
You are all mixed up. I was making the same point as you did. It's just that you guys are working hard for us, while we are lapping up all the lazy, air conditioned, cushion chair jobs from the west.

Even we have people who work 2 shifts and skip dinner so that a factory worker can afford to send his kid to a decent school. It's not like China invented hard work or that only Chinese people are working in the world.

Hard work is good. No denying. But, you need to work smart if you need to come on top.

So, I request you guys lead street protests for reform in your banking laws. Perhaps my family will come to China to setup the family business.
 

badguy2000

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China is not cheap labor anymore they have risen to an international level , the advantage of developing third world cheap labor is gone and will make China more and more unattractive as other cheaper countries are found

the infrastructure buildout was the reason for the high growth rate in china now that's built and it's more expensive to maintain the costs go up to export another negative for Chinese exports

full industry chain is ok only if it reduces costs, it may even be a disadvantage many American car parts are made in many other countries and only assembled in USA , so even this can serve to be an increase in cost of the final product another disadvantage for exports

the importers don't care about workers,infrastructure or industry chain just one thing cost, if it's cheap get it or find another cheaper place.
1. compared with developed countries, chinese labour is still cheap;
compared with developing countries like India, Chinese infrastructure and full industry chain are much superior;


2. CHinese economy is base on mid-tech products like household appliance ,electronical products and shipbuilding.
However , it is climbing up rapidly on the value-chain. in one decade, I am sure that one chinese auto company will defeat Toyota and become global biggest auto company.

3. China's maket is expanding faster than others. for example China has surpassed USA and become global biggest auto market now.
 
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In China, outsourcing is no longer cheap - Aug. 11, 2008
In China, outsourcing is no longer cheap

What If Labor Costs in China Are No Longer Cheap? - Associated Content
What If Labor Costs in China Are No Longer Cheap?

China boom under threat by loss of cheap labour - Times Online
China boom under threat by loss of cheap labour

Is the China boom over? | News | Architects Journal
Is the China boom over?

The boom years are over for Chinese exports as slowdown bites in workshop of the world - Times Online
The boom years are over for Chinese exports as slowdown bites in workshop of the world
 

Known_Unknown

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LF, why even try, all your links will probably be dismissed as western propaganda by badguy. :rolleyes:
 

badguy2000

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In China, outsourcing is no longer cheap - Aug. 11, 2008
In China, outsourcing is no longer cheap

What If Labor Costs in China Are No Longer Cheap? - Associated Content
What If Labor Costs in China Are No Longer Cheap?

China boom under threat by loss of cheap labour - Times Online
China boom under threat by loss of cheap labour

Is the China boom over? | News | Architects Journal
Is the China boom over?

The boom years are over for Chinese exports as slowdown bites in workshop of the world - Times Online
The boom years are over for Chinese exports as slowdown bites in workshop of the world

the ratio of output/cost is the decisive indication for investor to choose where to set up plant.

,compared with India, chinese labour cost has be higher for decades, Chinese ratio of O/C is still much better,because the good infrastrucuture and full industry chain decrease cost much.

Besides ,Indian stupid labour laws limit the free flow of labour and increase labour cost much.


.
 
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the ratio of output/cost is the decisive indication for investor to choose where to set up plant.

,compared with India, chinese labour cost has be higher for decades, Chinese ratio of O/C is still much better,because the good infrastrucuture and full industry chain decrease cost much.

Besides ,Indian stupid labour laws limit the free flow of labour and increase labour cost much.


.
who says India is even interested in the low end manufacturing sector?
it will be smaller nations vietnam,pakistan,phillipines,mexico,honduras etc that will take over these exports
 

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