India-Bangladesh relations

leonblack08

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Advaita :
And thanks to the Sheikhs orders, the Army got him killed.

In a third world country which is until recently a part of Pakistan and has seen no democracy but have seen the money minting machine of Pakistan (the Pakistani Army). You consistently question the wisdom of avoiding Army……Why may I ask. Why are you blind to the fact that Army in such a weak society is the perfect source of uncertainity for the general populace…… Did that not eventually happen after Sheikh’s killing.
Well it would be helpful if you look back at the history of east Pakistan's politics.Bangladesh/East Pakistan was always democratic in nature,and it was one of the prime reason why we wanted to separate from West Pakistan.Which was Bangabandhu Sheikh Mujib denied his rightful role as Prime minister,a democratically elected one.
So saying Bangladesh had no experience in democracy shows your naiveness in this regard.


I am reminding you again,that Sheikh Mujib himself went against Bangladesh's constitution and formed Dictatorship through BAKSHAL.

Yes I agree Army in smaller countries like us tends to become power hungry.But Sheikh Mujib's killing was done mainly by mid-ranking soldiers.And the whole army did not support it either,thus we found coups after coups in next 2 years.

The reason I say army should not have been overlooked,because it brought his downfall.Had he not given Rakkhi bahini more importance than army,then probably he would not been assassinated.He created the platform and then perhaps 3rd,4th and 5th hands took the opportunity.

Let me ask you a question.If the Indian Prime minister forms a para-military force and starts giving more importance to it than army,how would Indian army react?

They would feel indignitiesed .That's natural.



Advaita :

You guys have no idea the risks India was running under the leadership of Indira Gandhi, to get rid of Pakistan from the East. WW-3 was already on the cards had India not returned the 90000 killers. Both India and BD populace were the biggest beneficiary of this (just look at the conditions in Pakistan today). This is called vision and risk taking ability. That BD populace has consistently shunned by simply behaving like herd of sheep vaccilating between the three power centres.

It was only save the subcontinent from hindu-muslim competition that Indiraji wanted to keep Sheikh in power and through him to let the BD populace have a chance to reject the Pakistani obscurantism, that you so readily support in the other forum.
What do you mean I support "Pakistani obscurantism, that you so readily support in the other forum."?


Care to elaborate?or are you out of words that you started making personal remarks?:rolleyes:

The approach Indira Gandhi took,was wrong.How did she expect that these people,who fought against India in 1965,will suddenly have love for India?

In 1971,India was our mutual friend.We needed to help,India provided it.India needed weaker Pakistan,we provided it.That does not mean we were in love with India.People's mentality does not change overnight.

She tried to take control of our country,in the form of a puppet Govt.Which is against our sovereignty and Bangladeshi people does not take this lightly.One has to understand the mentality of Bangladeshi people before dealing with Bangladesh.

What if USA tries to take control of Indian govt. to secure a secular govt. from Hindu political parties.How would you feel?

Advaita :

Aah but the same professional army officers were ok with serving the Dictator of 1965, Ayub Khan. Indiraji knew this and that is why Rakkhi Bahini. Also the failure to protect Sheikh Mujib was due not to the inability of Indians to forsee that Mujib’s killing this was a real possibility but due to the fact that those who wanted to kill him were the people who wanted to keep India on the boil. It was simple case of enemy being stronger or were they supplied by much stronger people (Pakistan+China+US had the best of relations during this period).

Those who had been part of the Pakistan Army had been highly trained professional even though they had been part of the set up that overthrew there own civil society, but the IA which came from exactly the same set up and never did anything against the civil society of India is a bunch of looters. Good direction you are taking in life…… whatever is left of it.
Now here you are comparing Bangladesh and India.Bangladesh,Pakistan...these are small countries.It is a lot easier to stage a coup in these countries.But India is HUGE.Its not that easy to stage a coup there.Forget the Russians.they have different story altogether.

Yes,since you are so fond of rakkhi Bahini,I hope you should have been under their custody.tell me what role Rakkhi Bahin was assigned to and what they actually performed?They were violators of human rights.The kind of role RAB is playing now.But at least RAB does not interfere in politics.

It is easy to become a fan without knowing much.




Advaita :

Ok you name some other person suitable to lead BD at that time.

Sir, Indians only help beat the PA not the rot that was already there. Is it not be your job.
I gave the names previously.Though none matches the popularity of Bangabandhu.

M A G Osmani,the commander of all Bangladeshi forces during liberation war.Was assigned with the charges of ministries of Post, Telegraph and Telephone, Communication, Shipping, Inland Water Transport and Aviation.But he resigned in 1974 in protest of Sheikh Mujib's introduction of BAKSHAL,which made Sheikh Mujib "President for life".And crushed democracy in Bangladesh.

Other names may be Maulana Bhashani,Tajuddin Ahmed and may be Zia ur Rahman.But the best choice was Sheikh Mujib,but he did not perform what was expected of him.







Advaita :
Now I think I am wasting my time even replying to you.

However, just so that Indians can somehow protect themselves from a Bangladeshi gone crazy, who will blame him for his own weaknesses, I think I will continue.

Ok granted the stupid logic that India could have killed him, what would India have gained by doing so when you yourself say that he did a lot to cooperate with Indians. Which gentleman would we have found to replace him…. Sir this logic fails for the simple reason that those who risked so much and carried such vision as to break up the Chipak combine in the eastern sector could never have acted so stupidly.

Sir the reality is we failed to protect the Sheikh precisely because someone else (or some such combines) much better at the job of covert killings of Country heads got to him first.
Pls don’t inject a conspiracy theory where the facts are just so clear.

Infact believe me we Indians see only Mujibda as someone in BD worth something good. This is well taught in our school systems that are dominated by the very same leftists against whom you posit the honourable Seikh was.
To us you guys are just a cesspool of corruption and shortsightness. And we only hope against hope that god may give you some good sense.
A word of caution:

Do not distort my words to fulfill your purpose.

What did I say?
These and some other facts leads some conspiracy theorists to the belief that India might have ordered the killing of Sheikh Mujib,as he was getting out of control.
I hope you know the term conspiracy theorists.

Now where does I say that India killed Sheikh Mujib?

I request you sir to have clear understanding of the writing before jumping up and down and terming me "crazy".Which BTW a personal attack.






Advaita :

Kindly note the vaccilations in your own thesis. Sometime you are speculating some time you are cocksure, but all the same you finally reach the conclusion that Indians killed Mujibda. Sometime you posit that Mujibda was the best at times you say he was a criminal. Pls make up your mind what would it be this week.

Such incompetent conspiracy theories. Looks like you guys came out of Pakistan but Pakistan never went out of you.

Akhand Bharat theory, another one of your week ideas. See we in India (clear majority) are happy that you guys went out of India, that saved us from civil wars.
Again you are blabbering making assumption.You are saying I reached conclusion that India killed Sheikh Mujib.What are you smoking sir?

Didn't the India have a strategic gain in dividing Pakistan in two?How come this make me come to the conclusion that India killed Sheikh Mujib?
Look back at what you quoted and what you wrote.

Now I feel I could have used my time better instead of replying to you.
 

leonblack08

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Advaita :
Sir may I suggest that the country has to be run inspite of the existence of these corrupt politicians. We have them too. But we never let 1.5 million of our countrymen die in one single drought and only from that drought. You guys and your 3rd, 4th, 5th hands have to take the credit for that after the Britishers in the subcontinent.

BTW how do make such jumps. Sometime Mujibda is great other times he is lusting for power and a criminal. And if his family and AL is criminal then how come the lay public still elects the AL after so many years. Or is it that you are an apologist for the 3rd, 4th, 5th hands of your society.
No I don't make jumps.
Its just that you start worshiping whoever you like.No offence.

Once again I am saying.No one is perfect.Sheikh Mujib was great at leading our country to independence.That's why he is the Father of our Nation.But as a ruler,he let himself down.
I praise him for his bravery for leading us to freedom and criticise him for being a bad ruler.

That's what a moderate person will try to do.You will not understand it.You believe that either I am on this side or that side.There is no third other way.

We have your kind of people in Bangladesh too.Just go back in PDF and you will find a fellow Bangladeshi member (Idune) calling me "Indian Stooge".May be because I do not go on bashing India whether there is a reason or not.

And here now you are literally calling me a "Razakar".

Such is the dilemma of being a moderate.:rolleyes:




Advaita :
Sir you say Indians got Mujibda killed even though he was partial towards Indians. For this theory you have so much support.
Then you say US got him killed. For this theory you have no theory.
Why, is the killing more important or your desire to paint India black.
Also why do you not want to go into the coup and counter coup period. Is it because it points to the presence of more than just the Indians.
Again you are distorting my words.Such a cheap work.

Just because I said "some conspiracy theorists believe",does this mean this actually weigh anything?Is it a conclusion?Come on any other member here.

I said CIA was a possibilty.Is it a conclusion?

In my article,I did not reach to any conclusion.But you are exerting that I made my conclusion.This shows you are hell bent on making me look like a hardcore extremist,only bashing India.


The reason I posted those points were because deep down even Mujib was not as pro-Indian as people think.Some here in Bangladesh,off course the opposition term him as Indian stooge.But that's not entirely true.

At times he did go against Indian will to act on his own.This shows his character.
 

leonblack08

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Advaita :

Why sir why do you fail to let our forum members know that Shanti Bahini had in roots in a political protest that got its roots in Pakistan-Chakma differences and even prior to that in the British-Chakma differences. But while the Britishers tried to solve there problem the Pakistanis slept over it or aggravated it. And BD after its independence and even after the waning of the Indian influence continued sleeping over it and only when things became violent did you guys wake up to the problem. Finally solving it in stages and need I add that Chakma refugees are still there in India. Thanks to the great and professional BD army. The same BD army which could not save its own officers from its own BDR. And I wonder who was financing the BDR to kill the BD Army this time.

Now here I see you trying to derail from the topic.Wow,such a cunning act.

The origin of Chakma problem is not relevant at all here.This is about the relation between India and Bangladesh.

I let the forum members know what was relevant here.

I let them know that India helped Shanti Bahini insurgents and Kaderia Bahini with arms and training who tried to destabilize Bangladesh.

Then you brought the BDR "mutiny" here.Wow,nice try to derail it again.

One fact for you to digest:

Army had surrounded the BDR HQ after 30 mins the mutiny began.But it was the order from Sheikh Hasina to not to engage,as it might cause collateral damage.

But army was ready for the attack as they told in the Darbar with Sheikh hasina.The tape of which got leaked and resulted in YouTube to be banned for few days in Bangladesh.

You certainly did not know that.As they say, "Little knowledge is dangerous".

Also why do you forget to tell the forum members why these reports are there only during the Ershad Era and only in US press. Is it because Mr. Ershad was US supported and US had a running fued with USSR during this period in more then one fronts. And knowing this very well you lack the courage to take on US for they would whip your sorry _ _ _. Why do you want to ration the truth. We would like the truth sir.

The truth sir is that your country is even more corrupt then ours. We at least have institutions to take care of politicians you never had any and the only one who could have helped you achieve it in the long run got killed because of the shortsightedness of your own polity and intelligencia.
From my experience in different forum,I have understood one thing clearly.When people does not have an argument,they start asking the reliability of the source.

When this Indian help is confessed by the insurgents themselves,and is an "open secret" in Bangladesh,this gentleman here is asking me about the source and timeline.

Such a lame attempt.

Now on Bangladesh being corrupt,who disagrees sir?
 

leonblack08

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Advaita :

I think leon this last chapter should have been the first one……how about you.
3rd, 4th, 5th hands finally revealed.

Thanks for mentioning the CV of General Ziaur Rahman (shows who is loyal to whom instead of his motherland). Now do you see why BDR was so intent on killing BD Army officers. Where they got there inspiration from.

Thanks for mentioning the name of Subramaniam. Swamy (this guy is the close friend of Mr. Morarji Desai even by reports of ISI led media). Mr. Swamy has information on everyone and everything. I wonder where he gets so much info. He must be god.

Thanks for mentioning the name of Mr. Morarji Desai about whom we have something for you( U.S. Journalist Cleared of Libel Charge by Indian - The New York Times)

So you see by your own thesis it gets indicated, there are bigger powers involved and poor Indians are the scapegoat you found for your own incompetence.



South Talpatti Islands – Well this really got me. I had to look up the wiki and it seams it is still an open issue with both sides having some claims and Indian claim not being entirely bogus ( South Talpatti Island - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia). But hey leon I think even on this Indian govt will compromise with the BD govt. (it wont be the first border settlement between us. Remember the last time we settled somethings.)
No this should not have been first chapter.Everything has its time,and it was revealed in time.

Besides relation between countries does not turn sour overnight.They happen in years.I tried to put everything in chronological order.

In case you forgot or you don't know,that Zia-ur Rahman declared Independence on behalf of Sheikh Mujib.Had he not declared it many wouldn't even know that East Paskistan was no more a part of Pakistan.He was one of the sector commanders of Bangladeshi forces fighting against Pakistan army.

In case you failed to read,he won "Bir Uttom" for his bravery during 1971 liberation war.

So what do you want to mean by his loyalty is to Pakistan?

Let me give you an example.

East bengal regiment soldiers strapped bombs on their bodies as they were short of land mines.This was done to save Lahore from Indian Tanks in 1965 war.
This same East bengal regiment soldiers mutinied after hearing West Pakistani troops initiated "Operation Searchlight".

And here I see a gentleman talking about their loyalty.:rolleyes:

About Indian politicians,they are your men.You know best.

Now,read my posts here or in PDF.I never blame India for our incompetence.I blame our politicians who caused it.So STOP assuming about me.

About territorial problem.Yes I agree with you.These problems can only be solved through discussion.
Last time we settled something about the enclaves,but they are open only at certain times.In case of emergency,people suffers out there.More effort needs to be put on this.
Apart from this there is problem with maritime boundary,but all these can be solved peacefully through negotiations.
 

natarajan

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Leon:What if USA tries to take control of Indian govt. to secure a secular govt. from Hindu political parties.How would you feel?
natarajan:dumbest comment in this forum i have seen and i would like to say india is run by secular parties and not like those in pakistan and bangladesh even usa dont have eligibility to say they are secular as everyone know obama converted to christianity for taking president post and srk ,many issues will prove that
 

leonblack08

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Leon:What if USA tries to take control of Indian govt. to secure a secular govt. from Hindu political parties.How would you feel?
natarajan:dumbest comment in this forum i have seen and i would like to say india is run by secular parties and not like those in pakistan and bangladesh even usa dont have eligibility to say they are secular as everyone know obama converted to christianity for taking president post and srk ,many issues will prove that
It might be the dumbest comment but to make him understand the Bangladesh scenario it was probably appropriate.

besides its just an IF,no need to get hyper on this.Chill.
 

Ray

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Leonblack,

I think you have your details a wee bit warped.

Mr Gandhi never wanted to control Bangladesh. If she wanted, then could she not do an Iraq?

We left and I say it with authority since I was also involved in the 1971 liberation of Bangladesh.

While the Mukti Bahini was a great help, your statements do no credit to those of the Indian Army who laid their lives down for your country to come into being.

I am not aware what Sheik Mujibur did or did not. He was your leader and not mine. If he behaved like the usual Pakistan satrap and dictator, then that is not India's fault. It is the fault of Pakistani genetics where they have been ruled by the Army longer than a democracy. And even when they are democratic, the Army still rules. Read Musharraf's book!

Unlike Pakistan or Bangladesh, India has never had a military coup. Does it not speak of the intrinsic value we have for democracy, even though India is far from being perfect?
 

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I would also state that Pakistan had no love lost for East Pakistan.

That is why even though Mujibur won fair and square, they refused to hand over power!

They hated the rice eating and what they called black Bengalis.

So, quit riding the high horse.

Bujhechoo dadu?

What's so great about Bengali Muslims strapping bombs in their bodies in 1965. They were fodder for the West Pakistanis and dispensable! Between you and me, I know West Pakistanis officers and they held East Pakistanis in contempt!!

Second class citizens of Pakistan and despised!!

If you all were treated as equal Muslims and citizens, there should have been NO reason not to be Pakistanis.

Why did you want your own country inspite of the Ummah, can you explain?
 

leonblack08

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leon you forgot to mention that india risked in huge proportion as usa sent usn enterprise to bay of bengal(in support of usa) just imagine whoever other than indira wont take this risk but she took it even usa is with pakistan at that time
Nataranjan,

The thread is about India-Bangladesh relation after 1971.So I did not mention much about 1971 liberation war.

India took many risks by helping Bangladesh.True.
But India had a backing too,Russia.

When USS Enterprise was sent to Bay of Bengal,Russia threatened with retaliation.And one Russsian submarine followed USS Enterprise and confrontation was avoided.Russia,then Soviet Union,forced US Seventh fleet away.
 

leonblack08

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I would also state that Pakistan had no love lost for East Pakistan.

That is why even though Mujibur won fair and square, they refused to hand over power!

They hated the rice eating and what they called black Bengalis.

So, quit riding the high horse.

Bujhechoo dadu?

What's so great about Bengali Muslims strapping bombs in their bodies in 1965. They were fodder for the West Pakistanis and dispensable! Between you and me, I know West Pakistanis officers and they held East Pakistanis in contempt!!
I never said that.If there was such a great bond between us at that time then we would have still been one country.

No one talks about reunification with Pakistan,except those who support Jamat e Islami.

For the West Pakistanis they were dispensable,but looking from East Pakistanis point of view,they embraced martyrdom.That's what I meant here sir.And I am not riding any horse here.

One point to be mentioned here.The bravery records of East Bengal Regiment soldiers are completely written off in Pakistan army's archive.But they are still there in bangladesh army's archive and EBR still exists.It is the best regiment of our army.
 

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India took many risks by helping Bangladesh.True. But India had a backing too,Russia.

When USS Enterprise was sent to Bay of Bengal,Russia threatened with retaliation.And one Russsian submarine followed USS Enterprise and confrontation was avoided.Russia,then Soviet Union,forced US Seventh fleet away.
Leon,

The Indian Navy didn't know that the Soviet Submarines were following the USS Enterprise. It was after the war that legendary Admiral Gorshkov told his Indian Navy counterparts that he had deputed the Soviet Submarines to shadow the USS Enterprise and they needn't have worried.

The declassified US documents, iirc, point out to the fact that the Soviets relented to the strong arm tactics of US and therefore PoK remained with Pakistan.
 

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On a side note:It was an ironical sight when USS Enterprise entered Bangladeshi waters in 2007.But this time they came with a humanitarian mission to rescue people after deadly cyclone CIDR.
Entered East Pakistan waters (not Bangladesh) and what did they do?

Get your facts right and not what the Islamists tell you!
 

leonblack08

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Leonblack,

I think you have your details a wee bit warped.

Mr Gandhi never wanted to control Bangladesh. If she wanted, then could she not do an Iraq?

We left and I say it with authority since I was also involved in the 1971 liberation of Bangladesh.

While the Mukti Bahini was a great help, your statements do no credit to those of the Indian Army who laid their lives down for your country to come into being.

I am not aware what Sheik Mujibur did or did not. He was your leader and not mine. If he behaved like the usual Pakistan satrap and dictator, then that is not India's fault. It is the fault of Pakistani genetics where they have been ruled by the Army longer than a democracy. And even when they are democratic, the Army still rules. Read Musharraf's book!

Unlike Pakistan or Bangladesh, India has never had a military coup. Does it not speak of the intrinsic value we have for democracy, even though India is far from being perfect?

Sir I have always credited India and Indian soldiers for their help.And this I have already said many times in this forum and in other forums.I hope other members who know me would agree on this.But what offends me is that I find many Indians completely ignore the Freedom Fighters' contribution.

About Sheikh Mujib turning into dictator,I didn't blame India for that.I blamed Sheikh Mujib for that.

About Indira Gandhi trying to control the authority in Bangladesh.I have already stated how and why.Turning it into Iraq would not make any sense.But turning it into like former WARSAW pact country would definitely have helped Indian policymakers.
 

leonblack08

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Entered East Pakistan waters (not Bangladesh) and what did they do?

Get your facts right and not what the Islamists tell you!
I did not get your words sire.Could you clarify it?

I think you are not aware of this that after cyclone SIDR in November 2007,US navy helped us in rescuing people.

Sorry it was USS Tarawa,but a bengali newspaper at that time reported USS Enterprise.
 

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Dear Leon…thanks a lot for your brilliant effort to go the depth of complex India –Bangladesh relation and thanks again for posting it on a thread inviting open discussion. I must request our Indian friends to come out of ‘we gave you independence’ attitude as it will be helpful for a better relation between two neighbours. I also want to point your attention towards internal politics of Bangladesh and some historical events that have bearing on future Indo-Bangladesh relations. You said those are not mentioned as the thread is about India- Bangladesh relation since 1971 but it is difficult to erect anything without a base and base of worsening India-Bangladesh relation was laid even before 1971.


It is not true that all Bangladeshi wanted independence from Pakistan and supported ‘Mukti Bahini’. There were people who were not ready to gift India a ‘broken Pakistan’. There were elements like Jamaat-e-Islami (one of the largest Islamist party in the sub-continent) and other organizations which opposed Bangladesh’s liberation. Jamaat’s wings like Rezakar Party and Al- Badar fought side by side with Pakistan Army to counter Indian Army and Mukti Bahini .(About atrocity and genocide done by them against minorities and supporters of liberation can be discussed in a different thread as Leon has proposd.) Here is quotation from their Daily Sangram’s editorial, “We believe that our young members will fight side by side with our army to defeat the Hindu forces, and destroy India, and raise the flag of Islam in the whole world”. There were the people to believe that freedom fighters were Hindu force in reality. Jamaat supporters were not very small in number that was proved later in Bangladesh Politics.
Leon you have mentioned about ‘rumours’ against India and Indian Force. Even rumours need a medium to spread and the medium was present in Bangladesh in 1971 and it is present there even today.

Now tell me one more thing. How do we treat our Army. To us they are the heroes. And what about the soldiers of our neighbours? We hardly miss any opportunity to make prank on them. Same thing is true for our Pakistani or Bangladeshi friends also. Now try to realize what went through the people of Bangladesh (or East Pakistan before independence) in 1971. Their yesterday’s heroes were coming to kill them and molesting their women. And their yesterday’s enemies were coming as saviors. A tough call to make the selection. An event powerful enough to shook them from inside. (At least the Jaamat supporters were fortunate. They did not have this trouble. Indians were their enemy before independence during independence and after independence too) Leon, you said the honeymoon was ending. You are right. It was bound to end very soon. Is not there one more Bengali proverb ,” Kaajer somoy……kaaj furale….” can you help me to translate it for our non-Bengoli friends in this forum.

Leon, India and Pakistan were formed through no goodwill mission, but from the belief of some Muslim leaders that Muslims would not be able to maintain a separate identity in a country which they thought would be dominated by Hindus. During partition millions of people were uprooted and millions were killed. There were Hindus from newly formed Pakistan and there were Muslims from India and tales of their terrifying experience still passes on through generations. In 1971 it was noticeable how long the honeymoon could last forgetting all the past.

Soldiers are not saints. When given full authority and nobody to check their deeds they can turn to the acts that are not expected from them. Even India we often get news of tortures and killing by armies where they are posted to counter the separatists. Same instances are available in other parts of the world too, may be in Bangladesh you have similar experience during army rules. Indian Army remained on Bangladeshi soil till March19, 1972 following surrender of Pakistan Army on 16th December 1971. (Bangladesh did not have to tolerate occupying Indian Army more than three months) But do not you agree to the fact Bangladesh needed presence of a professional army that time as Bangladesh’s own force was under formation. There was always the threat of one more civil war as anti-independence supporters were there and members of Mukti Bahini was ready to search and punish those who assisted Pakistan Army to avenge the death of three millions of Bangladeshis. There are reports of suffering of non-Bengali civilians in Bangladesh after independence.

India-Bangladesh relation has never remained static till date and it keeps on varying along with the internal power play in Bangladesh. You are in better position to let us know about the effect of Bangladesh’s internal politics on Indo-Bangladesh relation and I hope you will include it in Part II.

Waiting for the next part……
 

leonblack08

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Dear Leon…thanks a lot for your brilliant effort to go the depth of complex India –Bangladesh relation and thanks again for posting it on a thread inviting open discussion. I must request our Indian friends to come out of ‘we gave you independence’ attitude as it will be helpful for a better relation between two neighbours. I also want to point your attention towards internal politics of Bangladesh and some historical events that have bearing on future Indo-Bangladesh relations. You said those are not mentioned as the thread is about India- Bangladesh relation since 1971 but it is difficult to erect anything without a base and base of worsening India-Bangladesh relation was laid even before 1971.


It is not true that all Bangladeshi wanted independence from Pakistan and supported ‘Mukti Bahini’. There were people who were not ready to gift India a ‘broken Pakistan’. There were elements like Jamaat-e-Islami (one of the largest Islamist party in the sub-continent) and other organizations which opposed Bangladesh’s liberation. Jamaat’s wings like Rezakar Party and Al- Badar fought side by side with Pakistan Army to counter Indian Army and Mukti Bahini .(About atrocity and genocide done by them against minorities and supporters of liberation can be discussed in a different thread as Leon has proposd.) Here is quotation from their Daily Sangram’s editorial, “We believe that our young members will fight side by side with our army to defeat the Hindu forces, and destroy India, and raise the flag of Islam in the whole world”. There were the people to believe that freedom fighters were Hindu force in reality. Jamaat supporters were not very small in number that was proved later in Bangladesh Politics.
Leon you have mentioned about ‘rumours’ against India and Indian Force. Even rumours need a medium to spread and the medium was present in Bangladesh in 1971 and it is present there even today.

Now tell me one more thing. How do we treat our Army. To us they are the heroes. And what about the soldiers of our neighbours? We hardly miss any opportunity to make prank on them. Same thing is true for our Pakistani or Bangladeshi friends also. Now try to realize what went through the people of Bangladesh (or East Pakistan before independence) in 1971. Their yesterday’s heroes were coming to kill them and molesting their women. And their yesterday’s enemies were coming as saviors. A tough call to make the selection. An event powerful enough to shook them from inside. (At least the Jaamat supporters were fortunate. They did not have this trouble. Indians were their enemy before independence during independence and after independence too) Leon, you said the honeymoon was ending. You are right. It was bound to end very soon. Is not there one more Bengali proverb ,” Kaajer somoy……kaaj furale….” can you help me to translate it for our non-Bengoli friends in this forum.

Leon, India and Pakistan were formed through no goodwill mission, but from the belief of some Muslim leaders that Muslims would not be able to maintain a separate identity in a country which they thought would be dominated by Hindus. During partition millions of people were uprooted and millions were killed. There were Hindus from newly formed Pakistan and there were Muslims from India and tales of their terrifying experience still passes on through generations. In 1971 it was noticeable how long the honeymoon could last forgetting all the past.

Soldiers are not saints. When given full authority and nobody to check their deeds they can turn to the acts that are not expected from them. Even India we often get news of tortures and killing by armies where they are posted to counter the separatists. Same instances are available in other parts of the world too, may be in Bangladesh you have similar experience during army rules. Indian Army remained on Bangladeshi soil till March19, 1972 following surrender of Pakistan Army on 16th December 1971. (Bangladesh did not have to tolerate occupying Indian Army more than three months) But do not you agree to the fact Bangladesh needed presence of a professional army that time as Bangladesh’s own force was under formation. There was always the threat of one more civil war as anti-independence supporters were there and members of Mukti Bahini was ready to search and punish those who assisted Pakistan Army to avenge the death of three millions of Bangladeshis. There are reports of suffering of non-Bengali civilians in Bangladesh after independence.

India-Bangladesh relation has never remained static till date and it keeps on varying along with the internal power play in Bangladesh. You are in better position to let us know about the effect of Bangladesh’s internal politics on Indo-Bangladesh relation and I hope you will include it in Part II.

Waiting for the next part……
Hello Sabir,thanks for the fine reply.And sorry for replying late as I am going through some of the busiest days of my life.

Its good that you mentioned Dainik Sangram.But in today's context we have "Amar Desh" and "Noya Digonto" who are committed to negative journalism.Often creating stories to fulfill their own agenda,you know what that is.

Similarly we see some Indian newspapers over hyping the militant situation and maligning our reputation abroad.

Thanks for mentioning about history of our creation.It was painful.People did not yet forget the religious riots that took place.Its a very important point in this regard.

And I completely agree with you on how we treat our neighbouring armies.no matter how much respect we show,when time comes we don't hesitate to pull each other's leg.

Please do not mind if I take some time to deliver part 2.I am really busy right now and hardly getting a chance to write.

bye for now.
 

Daredevil

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BANGLADESH: SITTING ON HISTORY’S KNIFE EDGE
By Bhaskar Roy

The history of Bangladesh’s liberation would have been lost had the "January 11" military backed emergency not been imposed. Army Chief Moeen U. Ahmed and the Commander of the critical 9 Div. Maj. Gen. Masududdin Ahmed pre-empted a BNP-JEI conspired coup in which President Fakhruddin Ahmed was complicit. In the BNP, the Kingpins were Prime Minsiter Khaleda Zia, her elder son Tareque Rehman and his coterie, and militant groups promoted, nurtured and protected by them. The JEI worked from the background with its Amir Matiur Rehman Nizami involved in various illegal arms import like the 2004 Chittagong arms haul, and Dilwar Hossain Saydee managing the Jamatul Mujahidin Bangladesh (JMB) Islamic terrorists.

It may not be a widely known fact that in July 2006, Saydee told Prime Minister Khaleda Zia not to succumb to US and other western pressures to execute the top six leader of the JMB including its Chief Shaik Abdur Rehman. He explained that the JMB would be very important during the upcoming general elections. Khaleda Zia took his advice. These six dreaded terrorists were executed by the army backed caretaker government (CG) at the insistence of Gen. Moeen and his commanders. They also chased the militants into retreat, including the HUJI.

Evidence presented during the on-going Chittagong arms haul case exposed a nightmare of conspiracies involving the Bangladeshi intelligence agencies the National Security Intelligence (NSI) and the Directorate General of Forces Intelligence (DGFI), JEI Amir Nizami, Indian insurgent group the ULFA, Pakistan’s ISI and their front organization the ARY group, and international criminal residing in Pakistan, Dawood Ibrahim. When Dawood gets involved, he usually has a long term vision of establishing his company. That is what is coming out now. The serpents head rested in the Zia family.

It is true that the army backed caretaker government made mistakes. There was corruption, politicking, the ‘minus two’ (without Khaleda Zia and Sk. Hasina) Bangladesh political structure, reformism in the two major political parties, the Awami League and the BNP, and Gen. Moeen’s vision of a new Bangladesh. There were rumours that Moeen had the ambition to become a benevolent dictator, President among other things. At the end, the army officer stepped aside with dignity and grace.

Moeen proved everybody wrong. He was thought to be pro-BNP because he superseded a number of other officers to become the Army Chief during the BNP-JEI government. But he was also the chief architect of the notorious BNP-JEI combine’s downfall. He was not pro-Pakistan or pro-any country. He proved to be more nationalist than many others.

Holding this brief for Gen. Moeen U. Ahmed has a very pertinent reason. Nobody in Bangladesh or any other country for that matter is ‘Caesar’s wife’. The new clamour to bring Moeen to trial at this time will send a very wrong message to the Bangladesh army. The army under Moeen moved away from a coup for whatever reason, including some stern UN advice. If he is tried for corruption or something else, it will tell the armed forces of the country to review their role in a future crisis. If the Awami League led government has to go forward with their honourable objectives, a review of the Moeen politics would be in order.

During the CG government there were Advisors (equivalent to Cabinet Minister) who did more harm than good including attempts to raise communal hatred. Maj. Gen. (Retd.) M.A. Matin’s book distorting the history of independence of the sub-continent and trying to generate a hatred of India and Hindus is a case in point. Matin’s book, to say the least, was subversive.

Any kind of dictatorship or army rule is not acceptable to the genetically freedom loving people of Bangladesh. Otherwise, the 1971 liberation war would not have happened with self-less sacrifices. But after the assassination of the liberator of the nation, Sk. Majibur Rahman in 1975, most of the time it has been army rule or army backed rule. Hence, the ambience of the army has always been there, and continues to be. It will take a while for the Bangladesh armed forces to retreat to the barracks, and that will depend on the political leaders of the country.

This writer remembers the words of late Maj.Gen. Abdul Mannan, GOC, 24 Inf. Div. Chittagong, as well as Governor of Chittagong. It was during Gen. H.M.Ershad’s rule. He said the army’s place is in the barracks and protection of the country’s sovereignty. Governance is for political leaders, he added. Obviously, he did not climb up the military ladder. He preferred to shed his uniform and become an ambassador. Bangladesh has not reached that position yet, but could very soon, if issues are handled with vision and sagacity.

For the first time after 1975, the general elections in December 2008 were acclaimed by the international community as the most free, fair and credible elections of Bangladesh. It cannot be denied that the army ensured its own neutrality and that of the polling. The Awami League won a landslide victory, with the BNP and its ally, the JEI, reduced to marginal players in Parliament (Jatiyo Sangshad).

This was a cathartic change. In the 2001 elections the army and the security forces acted unashamedly with the BNP-JEI alliance. This is well documented in the Bangladesh media.

Prime Minister Sk. Hasina stands today with the huge responsibility on her shoulders to turn Bangladesh to what her father, Sk. Mujibur Rahman had envisioned. He was about to be executed in Pakistan or West Pakistan in 1971, but finally succumbed to an army conspiracy in 1975. Sk. Hasina has survived at least three serious attempts on her life. Members of the BNP-JEI government were complicit in these attacks, employing the terrorist organization supported by Pakistan, Harkat-ul-Jihad-al-Islami (HUJI). But Sk. Hasina is her father’s daughter, indomitable and tireless.

For Bangladesh to come to its own, a conclusion of the various aspects of the 1971 war of liberation is a must, and brooks no delay. The poison goes back to the immediate period of bitterness of partition in 1947. The question was what was to be the position of East Pakistan (now Bangladesh) in the overall sovereign Pakistan. The issues were both economic and linguistic. But language (Bhasa Andolan) took the centre stage. The divide started in 1948 and the 1952 language movement in East Pakistan sowed the seeds of separation. West Pakistan (Pakistan now) dealt with 1952 language issue with bullets and created martyrs. The die was cast. It was the Punjabi domination that is even now creating serious repercussions in Pakistan.

The year 1971 witnessed a very serious confrontation in East Pakistan or Bangladesh. It was between those who pledged their alliance to an alien domination based on religion, and those who opted for language, culture and pride to rule themselves.

The first group dominated Bangladesh following August 15, 1975 for a long time. But one can cut the leaves and branches, but the roots always provide succour to the tree. Sk. Hasina has to draw strength from these roots, and end permanently the source of the 1971 collaborators.

A concurrent issue is the assassination of Sk. Mujibur Rahman and most of his family, and the jail killings of most of his cabinet colleagues in November, that year. Before surrendering on December 16, 1971, the Pakistani army and the Razakars had killed as many Bengali intellectuals as possible.

There is a definite link between the three incidents of killings. The result of the 1971 trials, 1975 conspiracy investigations, and the Abu Taher case will determine where Bangladesh will go. They together remain a cancer in the country’s body politics.

Added to this is the Bangladesh Rifles (BDR) mutiny of February 25-26, 2009 in Dhaka which took the lives of 59 Bangladesh army officers and their families, including the BDR Chief. Maj. Gen. Shakil. BNP and JEI leaders unleashed a propaganda that the mutiny was India’s handiwork aided by Awami League government to weaken the Bangladesh army. A preposterous as the charge may be, the BNP and JEI continue to clutch this straw.

On August 17, this year, the new BDR Chief Maj. Gen. Moinul Islam, put the munity in the following perspective. He said foreign forces benefitted from this "most heinous crime", "external enemies still exist", and added "it reminds us of the liberation war of 1971". Maj. Gen. Islam need not have been more explicit. He obviously spoke based on the findings of investigations, and pointed the finger squarely at the BNP, JEI and Pakistan.

Sk. Hasina is faced with strong opposition both internal and external in the 1971 war crimes trial. Internal forces can be overcome. But when they are backed by strong external forces, it becomes difficult.

Saudi Arabia holds a strong economic clout to exterminate the fountain heads of Bangladeshi nationalism. In 1978, Major, then Lt. Gen. and finally President of Bangladesh Zia-ur-Rahman gave a new political life to the Jamaat-e-Islami (JEI), the main collaborators of Pakistan’s occupying army in 1971.

Therefore, the role and character of Zia-ur-Rahman, the founder of the BNP, life giver to the JEI, and late husband of Begum Khaleda Zia comes to question.

Zia, as a Major in the Pakistani army, fought for Bangladesh as a sector commander in 1971. He wrote an article how he hated Pakistanis and bloodied a Pakistani opponent in a boxing ring. This was soon after liberation. The BNP then went on to project Zia as the declarer of Bangladesh’s independence, and not Sk. Muiblur Rahman.

Very little is known whether Zia had any role in Sk. Mujib’s assassination, or even his real intent in the liberation war. Then there is the mystery of why Zia had Col. Abu Taher tried and executed immediately, in Dhaka central jail behind closed doors especially, after Col. Taher had helped him to regain power after 1975. Did Col. Taher come to know something about Zia and his connections that others did not? The rest of Zia’s career as President till he was assassinated in a military coup in 1981 suggested he was against the liberation forces.

Saudi Arabia exercises strong influence over Bangladesh given that Bangladeshi workers in Saudi Arabia are a major economic stay for Dhaka. It has promoted Wahabi Islam in Bangladesh, and some Saudi based NGOs have funded Bangladeshi extremist organizations. Pakistan wants Dhaka to drop 1971 war crime cases and forget the liberation war as several Pakistani army officers are listed in the war crimes. Riyadh also backs Pakistan.

The US has also been circumspect, given at least, real time information on Sk. Mujib’s assassination. The US and other western interest have indicated assistance for the trials, but do not want it to be made political. This is a very critical question. Every war crime trial and assassination of state leaders in a mutiny has political repercussions and roots. The west can be satisfied if the trials do not include foreign participants in both cases. But references to them are bound to come up during the course of the trials.

The 1975 incident was to try and obviate 1971. It almost succeeded. But the trials could open up a lot of old cans of worms. Even China would be indirectly complicit in support, since Beijing recognized Bangladesh only after Pakistan did after Sk. Muiib’s assassination.

To take the country’s attention away from the 1971 and 1975 trials, the BNP and the JEI have raised a number of India centric issues, like the Tipaimukh dam, the Asian Highway, maritime boundary, access to Chittagong port, the 1997 Chittagong Hill Tracts treaty being the major ones. The BNP-JEI combine has succeeded in raising especially the Tipaimukh issue to a significant extent arguing that the dam will dry up Bangladesh. But their arguments have been merely rabble rousing bereft of facts, and misinformation by the JEI organs like the Naya Diganta and Sangram among others.

Sk. Hasina has held her grounds till now. She will be coming soon to India on an official visit, the first in her new tenure as Prime Minister. It will be prudent for the Indian side to make critical questions, especially on technicalities, abundantly clear before her visit on Tipaimukh.

Sk. Hasina needs to conserve her and her party’s energy and concentrate on the existential issue of the relevance of Bangladesh as an independent and sovereign country, and justify the blood given by the people of Bangladesh. From 1948 to 1952 and then to 1968-69 and 1971, Bangladeshis irrespective of Muslims, Hindus, Christians and Buddhists fought on one side. The question on Gen. Moeen was brought in this article in this context. Energy and focus must not be dissipated at this critical juncture.

For Bangabandhu’s elder daughter, one of the two who escaped the annihilation of the family, destiny beckons for the last time. Do not forget old friends or those who helped to this point. Remember, Bangladesh is on history’s knife edge.
 

LaBong

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Indian Govt.’s despair at keeping Bangladesh under her control became clear when India decided to support Kaderia Bahini to fight the govt. right after Sheikh Mujib was killed.This is totally in contrast to the India-Bangladesh 25 year treaty.As article 9 states that:
(ix) Each of the contracting parties shall refrain from giving any assistance to any third party taking part in an armed conflict against the other party.
Kader Siddique and 2000 of his followers,asked India for assistance in their armed resistance against Bangladeshi Govt. India agreed to give them shelter,training and arms.No wonder the treaty was useless.
Kader Bahini also fought along side Indian Army for the liberation of Bangladesh. Do not forget that. They were the ones who entered the capital Dhaka with the Indian Army, marking the end of the liberation war. Kader Sidiqqi, the founder of Kader Bahini is called 'Bongobir', not for no reason.

Then there was the CHT insurgents who were known as Shanti Bahini.This terrorist outfit is to be blamed for murdering of Bengali settlers in Chittagong and killing army men.Though the word “Shanti” means peace,their way was not of peace.
According to New York Times and many other international newspapers of that time,India supported the Shanti Bahini.Even Shanti Bahini leaders confessed that.The New York Times reports, Bangladeshi Insurgents Say India Is Supporting Them - The New York Times According to the F.E.E.R. Asia Yearbook 1981;
“Indian arms and ammunition were sent in substantial quantities on two occasions, in November 1975 and later in March 1977. The fall of Prime Minister Mrs. Indira Gandhi in the 1977 Indian election and the installation of the Janata government meant an end to the arms supplies, . . . with the return to power of Mrs. Gandhi earlier this year [1980], there have been no indications of renewed support for the Bangladesh insurgents.”
BSF and Kaderia Bahini cadres trained these Shanti Bahini insurgents. Untill 1997,we had insurgency problem which was fuelled by India.Even after surrender of arms,some hardcore extremists among Shanti Bahini are still active and are now involved in drug and gun smuggling and kidnapping.
Now when all these came to Bangladeshi people’s knowledge,it certainly did not help India-Bangladesh relations.
The Indian side of the story goes like this. Mujib was considered as friendly to India. His assassination was therefore viewed as against Indian interest, and Delhi feared that Pakistan or people loyal to Pakistan were involved in his assassination. This set the alarm bell in Delhi. Needless to say, Delhi's immaturity in handling such crisis was of no help. It was under this circumstances, in order to prevent Bangladesh from becoming a satellite state of Pakistan that India chose to support Kader bahini, briefly and Shanti bahini. Kader was pro-Mujib and was know as 'Mujibite'. In any case, the aide was too meager.

"Although they reveived rations from the Indian Border Security Forces (BSF) - who brought those in by trucks - the support ws meagre and soon the guerrilla fighters fell short of food and weapons"

from, They ask if we eat frogs: Garo ethnicity in Bangladesh by Ellen Bal; pg-192
Fact that India didn't foment any rebellion within Bangladesh during Mujib's time, is corroborated by Delhi's refusal to support any insurgent group.

"When in 1974 India was appreached by Jumma insurgents from the Chittagong Hill Tracts (Bangladesh), it showed no interest in supporting their cause. But things were different a year later, when another regime had taken power in Bangladesh"

from, The Bengal borderland: Beyond state and nation in South Asia by Willem van Schendel; pg-269
The turning point in India's attitude towards Bangladesh was the assassination of Mujib.
 

RPK

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Delhi-Dhaka ties: Page turns - dnaindia.com

New Delhi: New Delhi is readying for a new chapter in ties with Dhaka as Bangladesh's first woman foreign minister Dipu Moni arrives on Monday for talks with external affairs minister SM Krishna.

Moni's trip will lay the groundwork for prime minister Sheikh Hasina's visit later this year. India hopes to set right its ties with Bangladesh, marred during Khaleda Zia's rule, when fundamentalists thrived side by side with anti-India forces.

Sheikh Hasina's return to power has been a godsend for India. But she has been beset by domestic turmoil since her landslide victory. The mutiny by Bangladesh Rifles last year traumatised the country.Former envoy to Dhaka, Veena Sikri, has some advice for the government. "When dealing with Bangladesh, India must stop thinking of what's in it for us, but look for what's good for Dhaka. The goodwill that will flow from this will help India.''

Former foreign minister Pranab Mukherjee set the tone when he visited Dhaka in February. India announced some initiatives like providing duty-free access to eight million pieces of ready garments, lifting a ban on FDI in Bangladesh and duty-free access to several items from Bangladesh.

India also signed a bilateral trade treaty and another one on the protection of investments. But Dhaka is looking for much more. During Moni's trip, Bangladesh will ask India for trade facilitation measures to reduce the ballooning trade gap with New Delhi. It also wants lifting of trade barriers for all Bangladeshi goods to India. But Bangladeshi officials are not too hopeful. "India announces concessions on the one hand, only to take it away with the other by adding counter-veiling levies to protect its domestic market," said a diplomat who did not wish to be named.

Moni will also request Krishna to resolve the issue of equitable sharing of water from common rivers, and work on a pact on sharing Teesta waters. For India, terrorism remains a major issue. New Delhi wants to make certain that anti-India elements don't get a chance to use Bangladeshi soil for launching attacks on India. Apart from this, Dhaka has always given refuge to north-eastern insurgent groups. This will be on top of India's agenda.
 

indian_blues

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Bangladesh Hatred Towards India

In many other defence forums I see a strong anti-India sentiments from Bangladeshi's? Why is't so? I don't understand, they wouldn't exist if we didn't liberate them from the clutches of pakistan. They are more pro towards pakistan than India, calling pakistani's as brothers when they butchered millions of their own people.

Let's discuss on this so that it would throw more light on this issue.
 

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