India and the UNSC

DerBronzeLord

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Apparently you didn't read the post or maybe I didn't word it better. The China impediment is really the issue that I am addressing by way SAARC union applying for permanent seat in UNSC.


Simple. We shall make a council or a body to represent SAARC union which will for the purpose of the regions stand on any matter in UN will act as one unit. We can do it on majority basis or unanimously. There are tons of solutions for that. The first thing we need is a seat. SAARC can be slowly turned into a single fully integrated union with a single currency for our union as is the case with Euro. The problems that arise later would be sorted later. You are thinking too much and too far over minor issues which will be dealt with deftness of diplomats. One step at a time. And Pakistan which is a sidekick in international matters would most likely join hands with other SAARC nations given the newfound influence it is gonna have on international arena.


French are simply scared of Germans. This won't be much of an issue in our case. We need to unite if we want to get out of regional power politics. There is no other way for us to rise and face our bigger adversaries.
@Villager SAARC ever becoming a supranational body is out of the question. When the EU was formed, the European countries were ALL in deep shit, were very close and willing to collaborate. Now, roughly 40 years on, South Asia is nowhere close. Nepal, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka would also be unwilling to co-operate, Pakistan would be an impediment, and we would be handing it huge amounts of power. Your idea has been discussed in the highest levels of the GoI several times, with L.K Advani beings it's strongest proponent, but Pakistan always was a massive problem, who are too short-sighted too leave the Kashmir issue and focus on something else with respect to India.
 

DerBronzeLord

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Apparently you didn't read the post or maybe I didn't word it better. The China impediment is really the issue that I am addressing by way SAARC union applying for permanent seat in UNSC.


Simple. We shall make a council or a body to represent SAARC union which will for the purpose of the regions stand on any matter in UN will act as one unit. We can do it on majority basis or unanimously. There are tons of solutions for that. The first thing we need is a seat. SAARC can be slowly turned into a single fully integrated union with a single currency for our union as is the case with Euro. The problems that arise later would be sorted later. You are thinking too much and too far over minor issues which will be dealt with deftness of diplomats. One step at a time. And Pakistan which is a sidekick in international matters would most likely join hands with other SAARC nations given the newfound influence it is gonna have on international arena.


French are simply scared of Germans. This won't be much of an issue in our case. We need to unite if we want to get out of regional power politics. There is no other way for us to rise and face our bigger adversaries.
Btw, French don't give two hoots about the Germans. Germany was, and always will be, a second-grade power, with good tech. They have a large economy, much larger than France, but the internal problems, such as their demographics, the general pacifist mood of the nation, coupled with a falling economy, has crushed their chances. With Brexit, the UK's economy is going down so much so that the British government is advising it's businessmen to set up shop in the EU rather than the UK. The British government is also too compromised by foreign actors, and Britain is teetering on the edge of collapse, with Scotland seeking independence. Once their economy goes down, the military spending will also go down.

In my honest opinion, the next few decades will see France leading Europe and much of North Africa, that is if Europe remains united. It is India's best interests to abandon Germany as they have just become deadweight to us. I would say that among the G4, the countries having the highest probability of Permanent UNSC membership are India, Japan, Brazil and Germany in that order.
 

Villager

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Germany is a second tier economic power which has enough issues and will face objections from UK, France, China and Russia.
I don't give shit about germany, I was contemplating if the idea would work for India. Obviously I am suggesting something new so there would be more doubts on the viability of the idea. Obviously the matter requires contemplation by the hawks in administration. Little value debating here. BTW, I concur with nearly everything you said with just one thing missing, you appear to be expecting and contemplating the cons only. It would work out. I am sure of it.
 
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I don't give shit about germany, I was contemplating if the idea would work for India. Obviously I am suggesting something new so there would be more doubts on the viability of the idea. Obviously the matter requires contemplation by the hawks in administration. Little value debating here. BTW, I concur with nearly everything you said with just one thing missing, you appear to be expecting and contemplating the cons only. It would work out. I am sure of it.
I'm not listing any cons but denouncing the illusion of "international representation and harmony" which is strictly limited to diplomatic dialogues. SAARC is a big "nothing" and this "new method" of getting UNSC in name of representation is used by Brazil in Latin America and South Africa in Africa.

Neither it works nor India needs it because of its own capacities.
That's true but only if India is willing to do away with it and be ready for some daring times for the nation.
India not joining UNSC will only create more confronting power blocs in future, not altogether decimate entire UNSC. Indeed, India's representation is interests of UN but it's not in interest of current permanent members of UNSC who are there for their own interests.
 

no smoking

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India not joining UNSC will only create more confronting power blocs in future, not altogether decimate entire UNSC.
When is the exact time in the future. 2 years? 5 years? 10 years or even 20 years?
Nobody is going to give India a big lotto winning ticket for a possibility of remote future.

Indeed, India's representation is interests of UN but it's not in interest of current permanent members of UNSC who are there for their own interests.
Oh, please. India wants to join UNSC as permanent member just because it serves India's interest. We already have 5 thugs on that table, adding one more thug there won't make things better.
 

no smoking

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If UNSC reforms are not passed within the short-term, there will be grave implications. Perhaps even an alternative organization might have to be created.

UN needs India more than India needs UN.
The door is opening, no one stop India from leaving.
 
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When is the exact time in the future. 2 years? 5 years? 10 years or even 20 years?
Nobody is going to give India a big lotto winning ticket for a possibility of remote future.
UNSC veto power is strictly the one in international military affairs but nothing more than that. Even existing stage would be a mild star of that and an Indian power bloc will be a reality in next 10-15 years.

If India needed a ticket from UNSC to grow and survive, it wouldn't have dragged itself this far, having military closing gap with P5 itself.
India's large size acted as deterrence for it for decades, economy and technology grown under protection of this deterrence will help it to be influential. Same case lies for formed Soviet Union and people's republic of China.

Oh, please. India wants to join UNSC as permanent member just because it serves India's interest. We already have 5 thugs on that table, adding one more thug there won't make things better.
So what else I wrote either? I was responding to someone who believes that India can get a seat a by advertising itself as a representator of brown countries.

Fact is that the P5, those are sitting in UNSC and G4, those are pitching for their seats are all doing this for their own interests.
India's representation is interests of UN but it's not in interest of current permanent members of UNSC who are there for their own interests.
 

no smoking

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UNSC veto power is strictly the one in international military affairs but nothing more than that. Even existing stage would be a mild star of that and an Indian power bloc will be a reality in next 10-15 years.
Then come back and ask for the seat when you got your power bloc.

If India needed a ticket from UNSC to grow and survive, it wouldn't have dragged itself this far, having military closing gap with P5 itself.
The ticket is a reward, not the basis to grow and survive.

India's large size acted as deterrence for it for decades, economy and technology grown under protection of this deterrence will help it to be influential. Same case lies for formed Soviet Union and people's republic of China.
Unfortunately, that is now how USSR and PRC got their seat.
They got their seat because they proved their capability to stand and fight against western power outside their border: Soviet in Europe and China in Asia. They also donated billions of dollars to third world countries even during their most difficult periods.

What did India do for other countries.


So what else I wrote either? I was responding to someone who believes that India can get a seat a by advertising itself as a representator of brown countries.
You write this: "India's representation is interests of UN".
Did you write incorrectly?
 
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Then come back and ask for the seat when you got your power bloc.
Well, are you drunk or got bored of your days on forum now? Indeed it was clear that we are discussing a topic of near future and not asking you to file a petition for India's UNSC membership.
The ticket is a reward, not the basis to grow and survive.
Then how do I interpret it? I assumed "big lotto ticket" as a chance of letting it grow rather than "handing over UNSC seat in immediate future".

I thought once that you might have been writing that for UNSC seat but then thought you had some common sense and couldn't go this stupid. My bad!
Nobody is going to give India a big lotto winning ticket for a possibility of remote future.
Read the convo from start intelligent man.
You write this: "India's representation is interests of UN".
Did you write incorrectly
Obviously a country with a 6th of world's humanity. Where does it translate into "not in India's interests"? Because writing that was redundant and even asking for it again is ultimate nonsense.
 

no smoking

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Well, are you drunk or got bored of your days on forum now? Indeed it was clear that we are discussing a topic of near future and not asking you to file a petition for India's UNSC membership.
The problem, India is asking for a permanent membership NOW.

Then how do I interpret it? I assumed "big lotto ticket" as a chance of letting it grow rather than "handing over UNSC seat in immediate future".

I thought once that you might have been writing that for UNSC seat but then thought you had some common sense and couldn't go this stupid. My bad!
Read again, I said the seat itself is a "big lotto WINNING ticket".

Obviously a country with a 6th of world's humanity. Where does it translate into "not in India's interests"? Because writing that was redundant and even asking for it again is ultimate nonsense.
Who is arguing if it is in India's interest? Obviously, it is.
My point is a permanent membership for India isn't in UN's interest.
 
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The problem, India is asking for a permanent membership NOW.
There is no timeline being mentioned.
The problem is you are passing off unsolicited stupidity and responses which don't even remotely fit into context.
UNSC veto power is strictly the one in international military affairs but nothing more than that. Even existing stage would be a mild star of that and....
Then come back and ask for the seat when you got your power bloc.
You are basically giving strawman arguments just for the sake of replying than continuing discussion. Besides irritating hell out of the guy involved in debate with you, it makes you look stupid as well.
Read again, I said the seat itself is a "big lotto WINNING ticket".
If it was then ignore my previous too. Because even your argument was contextless rant.
Who is arguing if it is in India's interest? Obviously, it is.
My point is a permanent membership for India isn't in UN's interest.
You exactly claimed that I said it isn't in India's interests. For second part, you need to explain why.
 

Okabe Rintarou

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Not 100% sure, but I think Murica just withdrew its support for India's UNSC permanent seat.
Biden's new ambassador to the United Nations, Linda Thomas-Greenfield, had this to say when asked "Do you think India, Germany, Japan, should be (permanent) members (of the U.N. Security Council)" :-
“I think there has been some discussions about them being members of the Security Council and there are some strong arguments for that,” she said.
“But I also know that there are others who disagree within their regions that they should be the representative of their region. That, too, is an ongoing discussion,”

Lets wait till we receive a few more confirmations of the same. But I think they are going ahead with this $hit.
 

Compersion

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League of Nations ended with World War 2. You must be waiting for WW3? Not sure who will be left with what borders, if any.
Don't mind to be said that 1945 - 1947 needs to be done properly ... happy there is no war
 

no smoking

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There is no timeline being mentioned.
The problem is you are passing off unsolicited stupidity and responses which don't even remotely fit into context.
These kind of words really show how your parent teach you.

You are basically giving strawman arguments just for the sake of replying than continuing discussion. Besides irritating hell out of the guy involved in debate with you, it makes you look stupid as well.



You exactly claimed that I said it isn't in India's interests. For second part, you need to explain why.
Where did I said that? Please point out.
I said:
"Oh, please. India wants to join UNSC as permanent member just because it serves India's interest. We already have 5 thugs on that table, adding one more thug there won't make things better. "
Where did I claim you said it isn't in India's interest.
All I argued was it is not in UN's interest.
 
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You are basically giving strawman arguments just for the sake of replying than continuing discussion.
Well, I don't easily lose my context while in a debate. I'm quite sensitive about my image.

You even know what a strawman argument is?
When is the exact time in the future. 2 years? 5 years? 10 years or even 20 years?
The door is opening, no one stop India from leaving.
UNSC veto power is strictly the one
Then come back and ask for the seat when you got your power bloc.
The ticket is a reward, not the basis to grow and survive.
If you think that you are making any little sense, within context and not giving stupid arguments just to continue discussion, jump off the nearest building by you.

You used to be quite good an year ago while were objective, have become a fuss and irritant now.
All I argued was it is not in UN's interest.
That was refuted in favour of popular representation of a country representing 1/6th of humanity.
 

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