IN Scorpene Submarines - News & Discussions

[AJSINGH]

i dont get it , france asked for more money for scorpene and we gave it to them ,media did not attack that but they blasted the groshkov deal out of proportion ,why this ,i mean asking for price hike on the part of france was not fair

 

[sob]

The whole system is so messy that it contributes to the whole project getting delayed and the the suppliers are able to use the price increase clause.

In fact when we used to quote for defence contratcs the norm was

Hike offer by 50 to 75% for itmes currently under production
and for new itmes under development increase the price by 100 to 150%

This was done purely because of the delays and the endemic corruption in the system. Before we started to follwo this our organisation always made losses in Defence orders.

 

[venkat]

sob is absolutely right! only thing is he forgot to add a zero !!!!! it should have been 500% to 750%!!!!!!

our coffers will soon go empty with this kind of gorshaCOW milking!!!!!

 

[bengalraider]

Broadsword

SATURDAY, 19 DECEMBER 2009
Scorpene project snagged in government web, because contract with Armaris was manipulated to convey impression of greater indigenisation

The first Scorpene hull being fabricated in 2007. Today, that hull is complete but the MoD is still negotiating with DCNS to bring down the prices of critical systems for the submarine.


Minister of State for Defence, Pallam Raju: “French government is shirking their responsibility”

by Ajai Shukla
Business Standard, 19th Dec 09

An air of resignation hangs over the East Yard, a giant workshop shed in Mumbai’s Mazagon Dock Limited (MDL), where six Scorpene submarines are to be fabricated for the Indian Navy. Two years ago, when Business Standard visited this facility, it hummed with activity as welders assembled the hull of the first Scorpene, which was to join the Indian Navy in 2012.

Since then rumours of delay, of as much as two years, have swirled around Project 75, under which the Scorpenes have been acquired. Now, Business Standard has learned that work on the first Scorpene submarine has ground to a halt, and it is unlikely to be ready before 2015. And, most disquietingly, that delay is due to a contracting blunder, stemming from the MoD’s propagation of a myth that significant parts of the submarine were being built from Indian components.

This led the MoD to create a special category called Mazagon Procured Materials, or MPM. Of the total project cost of Rs 18,798 crores, some Rs 2700 crores (Euro 400 million) were set aside for MDL to contract directly for submarine materials. But the impression created --- by giving MDL a budget for locally procuring materials and systems from multiple vendors --- was false. The bulk of the MPM budget, as the MoD knew, would go straight to a single vendor: French company, Armaris, with whom India signed the Scorpene contract. This would pay for critical submarine systems, including the engine, the generators and special submarine steels.

There was no question of competitive bidding for these items. Since they affected crucial aspects of the Scorpene’s performance, such as noise levels, they had to be bought from the original vendor, Armaris, for performance guarantees to be valid.

It is not clear why the MoD left these crucial Scorpene systems unpriced. What is clear is that French company DCNS, which took over Armaris in 2007, is now demanding close to Rs 4700 crores (Euro 700 million) for these items, almost twice what was budgeted.

Minister of State for Defence, Pallam Raju, has told Business Standard that DCNS is basing its higher demand on cost inflation since the contract was signed in October 2005. The MoD is asking the French government to intercede with DCNS, but Paris is unwilling to help.

Mr Raju says, “We expect the French government to play a role in ensuring that it (the MPM items) is not priced abnormally high. We understand their need to make a profit, but the price should not be abnormally high. But we feel that the French government is shirking their responsibility.”

The MoD has pleaded its case with a range of French officials, but in vain. Says Pallam Raju, “I visited Paris (in June 09) and I had a meeting with DCNS. They assured us that they will hold our hand, but we are not getting that comfort level. I projected [the case] to the French defence minister as well. [In November] we had a senior French MoD bureaucrat… come [to Delhi] and I reflected it to him as well.

The MoD blames DCNS’ takeover of Armaris for further complicating negotiations. But that does not answer why a contract that took nine years to finalise failed to fix prices for materials worth Rs 2700 crores.

Senior naval officers who are familiar with the negotiations point out, “The inclusion of so many crucial systems in the MPM package --- systems that everyone knew had to be bought from Armaris/DCNS --- was a grave contracting mistake. This was done to give the impression of greater indigenisation… since these would apparently be items that MDL was procuring. But this scheme has backfired badly.”

Naval planners are struggling to deal with a situation where the induction of Scorpene submarines remains far away. Only after the MoD and DCNS agree on a price will production begin in France of the engines, generators and other systems that are included in the MPM category. Technicians working on Project 75 estimate that, once a price is fixed and a contract signed, it will be 33-36 months before the items are delivered to MDL and fitted on the first Scorpene. Then will start the painstaking process of outfitting the rest of the vessel, fitting weapons and sensors and carrying out lengthy trials before handing over the submarine to the navy.

But work in the East Yard has not entirely stopped. Having completed the first hull, MDL is going ahead with fabricating the second and the third. Officials involved in Project 75 say this will allow submarines to be delivered at 9-month intervals, rather than the planned 12 months.

But until the MPM contract is signed, and the systems delivered, MDL’s East Yard will not be producing submarines, but 200-foot-long metal tubes for a project that began two decades ago, and has gradually become a symbol of ineffective defence planning.
POSTED BY BROADSWORD AT 08:31

Stupidity sheer supidity
Hangs his head in shame!

 

[nitesh]

I think scorpene has capacity to have a small nuclear reactor (correct me if I am wrong) who knows this all nonsense is for getting those like gorshakov price ruckus is for getting akula and help in ATV

 

[bengalraider]

I think scorpene has capacity to have a small nuclear reactor (correct me if I am wrong) who knows this all nonsense is for getting those like gorshakov price ruckus is for getting akula and help in ATV

Quite possible the Brazilian quest for a nuclear boat is based on the scorpene platform(albeit an enlarged and suitably modified scorpene platform) so who knows maybe there's something in the works we're not being told about.

model of the Brazilian nuclear submarine to be based on the scorpene

 

[enlightened1]

Navy for second line of submarines construction​

http://beta.thehindu.com/news/national/article69068.ece?homepage=truehttp://beta.thehindu.com/news/national/article69068.ece?homepage=true

The Parliamentary Standing Committee on Defence in its latest report to Parliament last week mentioned that the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) had during March 2003 directed that the Navy should not let the force level fall below 140 ships as against the existing force level of 130 ships

Close on the heels of the Parliamentary Standing Committee that took serious note of the shortage of ships and submarines, the Indian Navy on Tuesday pushed the envelope asking the government to identify shipyards to begin construction of the second line of submarines as per plans.

The Parliamentary Standing Committee on Defence in its latest report to Parliament last week mentioned that the Defence Acquisition Council(DAC) had during March 2003 directed that the Navy should not let the force level fall below 140 ships as against the existing force level of 130 ships .

“The Committee take note of the shortage of the ships and submarines seriously and would like to recommend that all efforts should be made to expedite the acquisition/ Construction of the ships/submarines so that at least the existing fleet of ships/ Submarines do not fall below the minimum required level,” the Committee report said.

At the latest meeting of the DAC here, the Navy said it is time to start identifying shipyards where six submarines of the French-Scorpene series could be taken up.

Sources in the Ministry said the Navy’s push also comes as its submarine force level is depleting and as per current estimates it is expected to drop to 60 per cent of the current level of 16 odd submarines over the next five-six years and touch 50 per cent by 2020.

Behind schedule

At present six Scorpene submarines are being built at the Mazagoan Dock and the project is running behind schedule. The first submarines are likely to be inducted only by 2012 with the entire first phase due to be completed by 2017.

As per Indian Navy Staff Qualitative Requirements plan approved a decade ago, 24 submarines were to be constructed in series. The project-75 envisaged six of these to be constructed in the first phase (2000-2012) and the balance in the second phase (2013-2030).

Now, the Navy wants the government to identify the shipyards so that the second batch of 6 under project-75 India is undertaken and the rest 12 being wholly indigenous.

A recent report of the Comptroller and Auditor General too had noted that delay in finalisation of acquisition of submarines coupled with the time lag in the induction of the first submarine in 2012, the inventory of the operational submarines available for the Navy would be “at its lowest ebb and this would lead to serious operational ramifications.”

 

[bengalraider]

Navy for second line of submarines construction​

http://beta.thehindu.com/news/national/article69068.ece?homepage=truehttp://beta.thehindu.com/news/national/article69068.ece?homepage=true



At the latest meeting of the DAC here, the Navy said it is time to start identifying shipyards where six submarines of the French-Scorpene series could be taken up.
Sources in the Ministry said the Navy’s push also comes as its submarine force level is depleting and as per current estimates it is expected to drop to 60 per cent of the current level of 16 odd submarines over the next five-six years and touch 50 per cent by 2020.

Behind schedule

At present six Scorpene submarines are being built at the Mazagoan Dock and the project is running behind schedule. The first submarines are likely to be inducted only by 2012 with the entire first phase due to be completed by 2017.

As per Indian Navy Staff Qualitative Requirements plan approved a decade ago, 24 submarines were to be constructed in series. The project-75 envisaged six of these to be constructed in the first phase (2000-2012) and the balance in the second phase (2013-2030).

Now, the Navy wants the government to identify the shipyards so that the second batch of 6 under project-75 India is undertaken and the rest 12 being wholly indigenous.
.”

When did the Scorpene get selected for the second batch of six submarines?
i Believe the submarines to be built under that project are still to be finalized with the Navantia S-1000 and the Rubin Amur as frontrunners!

 

[ppgj]

[/COLOR]
When did the Scorpene get selected for the second batch of six submarines?
i Believe the submarines to be built under that project are still to be finalized with the Navantia S-1000 and the Rubin Amur as frontrunners!

the original deal had an option for 6 more as per this -

In 2005, India confirmed that it would buy 6 Franco-Spanish Scorpene diesel submarines, with an option for 6 more and extensive technology transfer agreements.

India’s Multi-billion Dollar Scorpene Sub Contract

 

[NiketRC]

Is it true that U 214 is better then Scorpene ?

 

[bengalraider]

the original deal had an option for 6 more as per this -



India’s Multi-billion Dollar Scorpene Sub Contract

That's what i want to know are we exercising that option ?if yes is it at the same price? are the next six all going to be AIP or not?

 

[bengalraider]

Is it true that U 214 is better then Scorpene ?

On paper they have their differences but no one can say whether U-214 is better or scorpene until both meet in underwater combat and one sinks the other. Also just technology does not matter training of personnel also matters "A submarine is only as good as the crew that mans it".

 

[ppgj]

That's what i want to know are we exercising that option ?if yes is it at the same price?

no idea about both.

are the next six all going to be AIP or not?

infact from the 3rd boat (from the six scorpenes) of project 75, it was supposed to be AIP.
from NTI: Submarine: India Capabilities

India is reportedly considering the installation of MESMA, the French AIP system, beginning with the third boat.[11,13]

this was post pakistan inducting AIP agosta.

 

[nandu]

In my point of view indian defence (including public enterprises and politician)planners are worst in the world.They simply dont bother about security of nation and made ill thought deals with any vision.This is very clear in scorpane deal also.

 

[AJSINGH]

In my point of view indian defence (including public enterprises and politician)planners are worst in the world.They simply dont bother about security of nation and made ill thought deals with any vision.This is very clear in scorpane deal also.

defense planners are good but when it comes to politicians ,then things go worse

 

[neo29]

God damn these french .. everything French is costly . from cost to production to maintenance. lets hope we dont buy anything french in future...

 

[Armand2REP]

Senior naval officers who are familiar with the negotiations point out, “The inclusion of so many crucial systems in the MPM package --- systems that everyone knew had to be bought from Armaris/DCNS --- was a grave contracting mistake. This was done to give the impression of greater indigenisation… since these would apparently be items that MDL was procuring. But this scheme has backfired badly."

Damn the French? How about damn Indian MoD and their quest to pretend to build indigenously. That is the cause of your delay. The price of our systems are subject to market forces like all other defence items. If you had nailed down a price back then, this would be a none issue. Blame everyone but yourself... You aren't the only one paying high prices for French arms, our military does it everyday.

 

[nitesh]

Well it is a blog (although ajay sir is a respected person )and we don't know what exactly is the actual cause until some official report comes in. Hence it will be highly speculative to comment on this issue (may be some extra component getting added and extra cost is for that purpose). But for the argument sake if we consider that MoD as a buyer has made a mistake of not getting the price written on paper but no body can allocate a budget on a speculation basis and if the seller is taking the buyer for a ride then might be the seller is not interested in working with the buyer on a long term basis at least this is what the picture is emerging. may be France knows the US entry is making there chances less hence make as much money you can in existing deal. Extremely short term view of the relationship from France side.

 

[notinlove]

well this coupled with the arm twisting by thales in the mirage deal as well as thales getting blacklisted(not sure about it) doesn't bode well for the rafale in the mmrca

 

[Armand2REP]

well this coupled with the arm twisting by thales in the mirage deal as well as thales getting blacklisted(not sure about it) doesn't bode well for the rafale in the mmrca

Thales isn't blacklisted. If it was, you wouldn't be getting Catherine FC for the T-90s nor would you get components for the Scorpene, avionics for the aviation nor digital communications for Rolta. Thales is one of India's biggest defence partners with annual sales nearing $1 billion.