IN Scorpene Submarines - News & Discussions

[shiphone]

an image on some recent issue of china defense magazine

 

[Rizvi Khan]

an image on some recent issue of china defense magazine

INS KALAVARI

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[ozzy.osbourne]

an image on some recent issue of china defense magazine

if it came with an article could please post it here . thanks

 

[sorcerer]

First India-Made Scorpene Submarine To Start Trial This Year

The first of the Scorpene class submarine Kalvari will start its trial this year, Vice Chief of Naval Staff P Murugesan said in New Delhi today.”Some time his year, the trial will start. Being the first of her class, trials will go on for long; it can be close to a year,” Vice Admiral Murugesan said at a press conference on the theme ‘roadmap for a future-ready naval force’.

Being built by Mazagon Dock Shipbuilders Ltd. in Mumbai, the submarine was set afloat in the sea for the first time in October last year.

It is first of the stealth submarines being built under Project 75, in collaboration with DCNS, France.

The boat would be equipped with anti-ship missiles and long range guided torpedoes along with modern sensor suite.

The Vice Admiral also called for industrial support for indegenising the three components of shipbuilding — float, move and fight — to 90 per cent.
While India is doing well in terms of the cost of ship building and its quality, the time factor needs to be controlled, said Mr Murugesan.

“A warship in any country shows its industrial capability. Today we can produce destroyers and frigates no less than any other destroyer and frigate, and it is much cheaper,” he said.

“Timeline is where we need to make change.” he said.

Vice Admiral Murugesan said the contracts for building Visakhapatnam class (Project 15B) stealth guided missile destroyers and Shivalik-class frigate (Project 17A) have components for outsourcing indigenously to promote Make in India.

In Project 15B, this outsourcing has to be 17 per cent, and in Project 17A it will be 46 per cent.
Decision on outsourcing will be taken by the shipyard, he added.

Source>>

 

[tharun]

How much fuel does submarine carry......

 

[Gessler]

How much fuel does submarine carry......

Enough.

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[tharun]

Enough.

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Wiki says 1050 km with speed of 9.3 km/hr
And First four submarines are conventional and other two are AIP fitted..
Not every submarine is AIP fitted

 

[Gessler]

Wiki says 1050 km with speed of 9.3 km/hr
And First four submarines are conventional and other two are AIP fitted..
Not every submarine is AIP fitted

Whether we'll have AIP on the last two (or on the additional 3 that are being contemplated) depends on whether DRDO manages to get it ready, tested & certified by then. If not, either we'll just order them with conventional diesels, or order the MESMA-II directly from France.

 

[Abhijeet Dey]

It is a shame that Indian Navy's first four scorpene class submarines will not have AIPs whereas Pakistan Navy's Agosta class submarines are equipped with AIPs.

Why Indian netas and babus have no foresight?

What if China gives AIP technology to Pakistan industrial complex? This will be a huge blow to DRDOs prestige.

 

[Gessler]

It is a shame that Indian Navy's first four scorpene class submarines will not have AIPs whereas Pakistan Navy's Agosta class submarines are equipped with AIPs.

Why Indian netas and babus have no foresight?

What if China gives AIP technology to Pakistan industrial complex? This will be a huge blow to DRDOs prestige.

Actually, part of the blame should be placed on DRDO as well. As it is this agency which goes to MoD saying that they will develop an indigenous AIP system. Banking on this, MoD might just decide to hold off any foreign AIP purchase (afterall, if DRDO gets more funding, it means MoD gets more funding).

But this AIP might arrive 10 or 20 years behind schedule. Or maybe not at all.

When it finally comes, we would probably already be inducting indigenous nuclear SSNs and no-one will bother about AIP at that point (unless Scorpenes come up for a deep mid-life upgrade).

 

[Abhijeet Dey]

Actually, part of the blame should be placed on DRDO as well. As it is this agency which goes to MoD saying that they will develop an indigenous AIP system. Banking on this, MoD might just decide to hold off any foreign AIP purchase (afterall, if DRDO gets more funding, it means MoD gets more funding).

But this AIP might arrive 10 or 20 years behind schedule. Or maybe not at all.

When it finally comes, we would probably already be inducting indigenous nuclear SSNs and no-one will bother about AIP at that point (unless Scorpenes come up for a deep mid-life upgrade).

I hope Indian netas and babus propose joint collaboration with Russia in 5th generation nuclear submarines. India should be ahead of Pakistan's all weather ally China in military technology.

Russia to Receive Fifth-Generation Nuclear Submarine by 2020

http://sputniknews.com/military/20150627/1023919462.html

But AIP submarines are much cheaper than nuclear submarines.

Cost of typical AIP sub is 100 million USD to 250 million USD, compared to 1,6 – 3 billion USD for typical nuclear submarine; though estimates for possible US diesel subs were as high as 500 million to 1 billion USD.

Here is list of submarine costs:

AIP submarines:

T-96 class (Sweden): 100 million USD

212-type (Germany): 250 million USD

Moray class (Netherlands): 250 million USD

Dolphin class (Germany): 500 – 870 million USD

Scorpene class (France): 450 million USD

Nuclear submarines:

Los Angeles class: 1 billion USD

Seawolf class: 2,8 billion USD

Virginia class: 1,8 – 2,5 billion USD

Astute class: 1,17 – 1,82 billion USD

 

[tharun]

Actually, part of the blame should be placed on DRDO as well. As it is this agency which goes to MoD saying that they will develop an indigenous AIP system. Banking on this, MoD might just decide to hold off any foreign AIP purchase (afterall, if DRDO gets more funding, it means MoD gets more funding).

But this AIP might arrive 10 or 20 years behind schedule. Or maybe not at all.

When it finally comes, we would probably already be inducting indigenous nuclear SSNs and no-one will bother about AIP at that point (unless Scorpenes come up for a deep mid-life upgrade).

DRDO is a piece of shit keeps india's security at risk all times..........

 

[tharun]

German Type-216 or 218 are much better than scorpene submarines.....and cheaper too..

 

[tharun]

The speed of submarine depends on the beam of submarine...
But looking at nuclear submarine with almost 30MW of power for attack submarine which gives 20 knots of speed..
But Type-214 has maximum of electric drive motor is 3-4 MW..It can cruise at speed of 20 Knots..How come conventional need low energy?

 

[Immanuel]

DRDO is a piece of shit keeps india's security at risk all times..........

Ohh really, by this very statement, you have proven that you're the real piece of excrement. DRDO given its budget and the attitudes of the services it tries develope for; manages quite well. Half the time, they have to deal with some of the services who are fed by the import lobbies and have a bastardly attitude towards anything home made.

 

[Gessler]

German Type-216 or 218 are much better than scorpene submarines.....and cheaper too..

Now that we already have Scorpene...it makes no sense to buy a different class of submarines. Infact if we do so it will be a logistical nightmare of sorts. We'd be the only Navy in the world that operated 4 different kinds of diesel-electric SSKs within recent history. Kilo, U209, Scorpene and P-75I. Navy is already suffering the consequences of such decisions (including when MoD sat on license to manufacture further U209-class SSKs in India, just like how they sat on license to make FH-77B howitzers here).

Kilo and U209s will be retired in the next 10 years...so now is the right time to plan ahead wisely. We will either have to buy the Navantia S80 "Super Scorpene" under P-75I, or just scrap the tender altogether and go for upto 6 additional DCNS Scorpenes, but with AIP fitments.

Either way, it will ensure that our future diesel-electric submarine fleet will be entirely based around the Scorpene infrastructure only. Lots of time & money can be saved....also with either the DRDO-made or the MESMA-II AIP system, and the future SLCMs, the Scorpenes will be one heck of a killer.

 

[aditya g]

What are the qualitative differences which IN expects in Project 75I over Scorpenes? Available literature points only to the idea that the project has to

a. create a second production line in India

The delays have meant that Mazagaon's hull fabrication line for submarines is already idle. What point does it make to make a second line? We already have a second facility in SBC Vizag.

b. diversify into another design (Russian) before building our own design.

Again, the nuclear subs being built are of Russian school only. So that input is there.

So what parameters do we expect to be different different in P75I? Should it fire Brahmos VLS? This I think will be the major requirement. But it would mean a much larger sub - and accordingly more expensive as well. Will a bigger sub be a better sub? I don't know.

If we can get our act together and make the Brahmos-Mini/NG, then we do not need a VLS capability. Alternatively accept Exocet as the weapon of choice. Build 4 more scorpenes to replace the Type-1500s. Build improved Kilos at Hindustan Shipyard which has alreaady developed significant expertise on the type.

 

[aditya g]

....We will either have to buy the Navantia S80 "Super Scorpene" under P-75I, or just scrap the tender altogether and go for upto 6 additional DCNS Scorpenes, but with AIP fitments.

Either way, it will ensure that our future diesel-electric submarine fleet will be entirely based around the Scorpene infrastructure only. Lots of time & money can be saved....also with either the DRDO-made or the MESMA-II AIP system, and the future SLCMs, the Scorpenes will be one heck of a killer.

I think building more French subs is a better choice. But rather go for Scorpenes than S80.

S80 @ 7.3 too cannot accomodate a Brahmos VLS. I am not saying that is a definitive requirement of P75I - but if not then why make a different model?

 

[Gessler]

I think building more French subs is a better choice. But rather go for Scorpenes than S80.

S80 @ 7.3 too cannot accomodate a Brahmos VLS. I am not saying that is a definitive requirement of P75I - but if not then why make a different model?

The upcoming BrahMos-NG variant (same 290km range, max speed boosted to Mach 3.5 and weighs approx. 1.5 tons) is being designed to fit into any 533mm torpedo tubes. Therefore a VLS fitment will no longer be necessary even if IN decides that future anti-ship SLCM capability needs to be based around the BrahMos platform instead of subsonic Exocet/Harpoon/Klub.

Incorporating a VLS into an existing design is a hard job...will take much redesigning and will also alter the CoG of the vessel. Only some SSKs come with a pre-planned VLS module setup. But given the type of subs considered for P-75I, I too do not think this was a defined requirement. It must have just been an attempt by some of the competitors to make their offer look more attractive to IN.

I believe the whole reason for P-75I was the Air-Independent Propulsion package, which is a prerequisite for competing in this tender. But now with DCNS offering improved Scorpenes with AIP modules similar to what the S80 would have, the tender has lost most of it's prospective value. At this point, scrapping the tender would not result in any probable capability-loss in future as upgrading Scorpene can incorporate all those advancements.

By all means, it makes sense to scrap P-75I and go for further numbers of Scorpenes.

Original 6 + follow-on 3, now we can add 6 more under the requirement P-75I aimed to fulfill. A total of 15 modern diesel-electric SSKs, more than half of which should have AIP and all based around the Scorpene design & infrastructure will be a potent underwater asset for IN. While also saving billions in setting up a different production line, adjusting to new ToT and new maintenance/repair infrastructure.

 

[Yumdoot]

A Soryu with Lithium Ion battries would still be cheaper to both S-80 and Scorpene with older styled batteries and still offer the best in class draft which should be enough for Brahmos.