IN Scorpene Submarines - News & Discussions

trackwhack

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The deadliest weapon that will be fired from this peice of junk is going to be .... wait for it ... a 4 decade old Exocet missile. What is gods name was the navy thinking with this deal. Its still not too late to scrap the last two and buy 6-8 Amurs with VLS for Brahmos.
 

Dinesh_Kumar

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I think obsolete mentioned above has to do with Sensor Suite and Sonars, etc.

He probably means 2000 era sensor packages and sonar suite (contract signed for this) will make appearance in about 2020 (Oh My God!).
Other Navies like Paki will use time to upgrade their already existing 3 x Augostas to more recent advances at that point of time, while we will be taking possession of brand new submarine.So, we get new obsolete equipment, already paid for, and upgrading them will cost us that much more money and time delays.

Above, is best of my understanding. Any other views please share.

So it is confirmed that first three scorpene submarines won't be having Air Independent propulsion technology. Should these three submarines be used for training purposes or for combat? Top Indian Navy officials are saying they will be obsolete when commissioned.

Do Indian submarines without AIP technology have any disadvantage against enemy submarines with AIP?
 

Bheeshma

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The sub does not become obsolete so fast but MDL needs to be shut down or handed over to L&T.
 

Armand2REP

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The sub does not become obsolete so fast but MDL needs to be shut down or handed over to L&T.
It is too late to shut it down but all unstarted builds should be shifted to Pipavav where DCNS actually has some control. The solution for MDL is the same, let DCNS buy a large stake but at this point, I don't think they even want it. They must be sick to the stomach dealing with babus control. This is why Dassault is so wary of the terms set by HAL, they don't want Rafale being several years behind schedule.
 

Bheeshma

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Agree on shipyards but except HAL there is no alternative in aerospace sector. TATA and Mahindra are no L&T or Pipvav.
 

Dinesh_Kumar

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No, going by delay in Scorpene build, selling MDL stake to DCNS wont solve any problems. The root cause of Scorpene delay, IMHO, is certainly not due to ownership of MDL, but other reasons.
(I feel even Indians are equally at fault here, i.e. IN and MDL personnel)
Moreover, MDL is only strategic asset we have for building subs, and needed by us. If we sell it, we cant make subs on our own anymore.This is important point for us, cause our requirements have always been for a minimum of 18 subs, just for defensive and holding operations against 2 adversaries, Pakistan and China. More Subs are always welcome, main drawbacks being high import costs. Thats one main reason IN wanted a submarine design capability in-house, and a submarine build capability in MDL. (This was somewhat realized when HDW deal was signed)
L&T capability of sub building doubtful, and moreover, L&T is Pvt. company, can be sold to anyone anytime.
 

arnabmit

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Are there any news on a follow up order for scorpenes after the initial 6?
 

Dinesh_Kumar

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@Armand2REP


****Taken from BR Forums******

BR respected member "Philip" opines to Forum Moderator "Ramanna" that though MDL and other establishments like MDL , GRSE, etc. are headed by ex-Naval Officers, the entire establishment is controlled by bureaucratic apparatus. Also, this often results in messy and distorted procedures like "MDL procured items" for Scorpene, and also lack of technical knowledge from the officials.
We have to overcome many obstacles in our country as well.....
 
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Abhijeet Dey

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@Decklander Sir

Out of 6 Scorpene submarines which MDL is building for the Navy how many of them will be having Air Independent Propulsion Technology?
 
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sasi

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@Decklander Sir

Out of 6 Scorpene submarines which MDL is building for the Navy how many of them will be having Air Independent Propulsion Technology?
Only last 2 that too if drdo aip is ready. If not there are rumours, aip is imported for the last two!
 
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Decklander

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Only last 2 that too if drdo aip is ready. If not there are rumours, aip is imported for the last two!
The tech for AIP is ready it now needs to be integrated for a sub. The delay in the project has created a situation wherein we will not only have AIP in all six but even Brahmos in all of them. Once you add the AIP plug aft of the main sail, you need to add a plug in front also to keep the trim of the sub.
read this link, this is the tech that is LIKELY to go into DRDO AIP. tatas developed it with help of ISRO. The DRDO AIP is exactly based on this tech
http://www.buses.tatamotors.com/download/images/starbus-fuel-cell-leaflet.pdf
 

sasi

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I disagree with u No brahmos and not 4 only 2 will get aip that too if drdo aip is ready!
From joshi himself dec 2012

There is uncertainty over the possibility of Air Independent Propulsion (AIP) being installed in the last two of the six Scorpene submarines being built atMazagon Dock Limited in Mumbai.
Indian Navy chief, Admiral D.K. Joshi told reporters at the annual Navy Day press conference on Monday that the task of indigenous development of an AIP Plug for the fifth and sixth Scorpene submarines has been given to the Naval Materials Research Laboratory (NMRL) of theDefense Research and Development Organization (DRDO) and would be installed on them only if the development is completed within the schedule of the construction of the two submarines.
"AIP plugs for the fifth and sixth of (Project) 75are under consideration.DMRL (sic, actually NMRL)has been tasked to develop that. It is doing so. What is to be seen iswhether the DMRL timeline Matches the delayed production timelines of (Project) 75. In case this comes onlinein conformity with the fifth and sixth ones theywill be put into place, butif for some reason they are not ready at that point in time we would not delay the production timelines."
The last of the Indian Scorpenes is expected to be delivered by September, 2018.
The French manufacturer of the Scorpene class of submarines, DCNS, had earlier offered to install its own AIP Plugon the the two Indian Scorpene submarines.
Air Independent Propulsion is an auxiliary system for increasing the endurance of the boat's sub-surface operability. The DCNS system, known as MESMA (Moduled'Energie Sous-Marine Autonome), is based on the combustion of storedoxygen and ethanol to augment battery-powered propulsion.
Joshi also said the NMRLdevelopment of the AIP Plug could be utilized forthe second line of submarines to be constructed under the Project 75 (India) program. "This would become an option for any of the subsequent indigenous options," he said, confirming, "The next line will have an AIPplug."
Joshi said the he expected progress on Project 75 (India). "In so far as the secondline (submarines) RFP is concerned, it'll be out very soon. DAC (DefenseAcquisitions Council) approval has already been accorded for it."
http://www.stratpost.com/uncertainty-over-aip-for-indian-scorpene-submarines?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Feed%3A stratpost %28StratPost%29
April 2014
Mumbai:India will feature an electric propulsion for its future LPD (Landing Platform Docks) project and the Navy– DRDO Fuel Cell AIP will be ready for submarine refits, said Indian Navy officials during an SMM India (subsidiary of maritime tradefair SMM Hamburg) hosted event on 4th and 5th April.
Rear Admiral DM Deshpande, VSM, DG Project – 75 (Scorpenes) Naval Head Quarters, who spoke about electric propulsion for futureIndian submarines, describedthe Navy – DRDO fuel cell system, which was progressing. He named 10 companies involved in the AIP project led by L&T at NMRL ( Naval Materials Research Laboratory ) Ambarnath. The ten companies involved in IndianAIP propulsion design includeThermax, IOCL, L&T, Texol, Indian Institute of Petroleum, AKSA, CDAC, Gigitronics, ROLTA and MDL. (no tata)DRDO units involved in the project are NMRL, CEEFES, NSTL, RCI andNPOL.
DRDO AIP Fuel Cell diagram

The Hydrogen based Indian AIP design has no Carbon Dioxide (unique to French MESMA) emission. The waste products are stored in a separate container in slurry form. Since there are no emissions into the water, there are less chances of the submarine being detected. In addition to upcoming Project 75 (I) submarines, DRDO AIP can also be deployed in existing HDW T-1500 submarines (Shishumar Class) in Indian Navy service.

Indian Navy Fuel Cell AIP Plug. Slide MoD
On submarine indigenisation,Rear Admiral Deshpande saida lot Indian systems will be incorporated in the P-75 (I) submarines, including water cooled propulsion system, switchboards, 415 V NES -607 transformer board, 6.6 kv circuit breaker etc, which have been learnt through the Project 75 project.
http://www.google.com/url?q=http://frontierindia.net/indian-navy-ldp-to-feature-electric-propulsion-upbeat-on-drdo-fuel-cell-aip&sa=U&ei=CsMUUpfOBMKLrQfNxYBw&ved=0CDAQFjAG&usg=AFQjCNF0lObwHiLef4vb_cFP5AnH6LzXIA
 

Decklander

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I disagree with u No brahmos and not 4 only 2 will get aip that too if drdo aip is ready!
From joshi himself dec 2012

There is uncertainty over the possibility of Air Independent Propulsion (AIP) being installed in the last two of the six Scorpene submarines being built atMazagon Dock Limited in Mumbai.
Indian Navy chief, Admiral D.K. Joshi told reporters at the annual Navy Day press conference on Monday that the task of indigenous development of an AIP Plug for the fifth and sixth Scorpene submarines has been given to the Naval Materials Research Laboratory (NMRL) of theDefense Research and Development Organization (DRDO) and would be installed on them only if the development is completed within the schedule of the construction of the two submarines.
"AIP plugs for the fifth and sixth of (Project) 75are under consideration.DMRL (sic, actually NMRL)has been tasked to develop that. It is doing so. What is to be seen iswhether the DMRL timeline Matches the delayed production timelines of (Project) 75. In case this comes onlinein conformity with the fifth and sixth ones theywill be put into place, butif for some reason they are not ready at that point in time we would not delay the production timelines."
The last of the Indian Scorpenes is expected to be delivered by September, 2018.
The French manufacturer of the Scorpene class of submarines, DCNS, had earlier offered to install its own AIP Plugon the the two Indian Scorpene submarines.
Air Independent Propulsion is an auxiliary system for increasing the endurance of the boat's sub-surface operability. The DCNS system, known as MESMA (Moduled'Energie Sous-Marine Autonome), is based on the combustion of storedoxygen and ethanol to augment battery-powered propulsion.
Joshi also said the NMRLdevelopment of the AIP Plug could be utilized forthe second line of submarines to be constructed under the Project 75 (India) program. "This would become an option for any of the subsequent indigenous options," he said, confirming, "The next line will have an AIPplug."
Joshi said the he expected progress on Project 75 (India). "In so far as the secondline (submarines) RFP is concerned, it'll be out very soon. DAC (DefenseAcquisitions Council) approval has already been accorded for it."
Uncertainty over AIP for Indian Scorpene submarines | StratPost stratpost %28StratPost%29
April 2014
Mumbai:India will feature an electric propulsion for its future LPD (Landing Platform Docks) project and the Navy– DRDO Fuel Cell AIP will be ready for submarine refits, said Indian Navy officials during an SMM India (subsidiary of maritime tradefair SMM Hamburg) hosted event on 4th and 5th April.
Rear Admiral DM Deshpande, VSM, DG Project – 75 (Scorpenes) Naval Head Quarters, who spoke about electric propulsion for futureIndian submarines, describedthe Navy – DRDO fuel cell system, which was progressing. He named 10 companies involved in the AIP project led by L&T at NMRL ( Naval Materials Research Laboratory ) Ambarnath. The ten companies involved in IndianAIP propulsion design includeThermax, IOCL, L&T, Texol, Indian Institute of Petroleum, AKSA, CDAC, Gigitronics, ROLTA and MDL. (no tata)DRDO units involved in the project are NMRL, CEEFES, NSTL, RCI andNPOL.
DRDO AIP Fuel Cell diagram

The Hydrogen based Indian AIP design has no Carbon Dioxide (unique to French MESMA) emission. The waste products are stored in a separate container in slurry form. Since there are no emissions into the water, there are less chances of the submarine being detected. In addition to upcoming Project 75 (I) submarines, DRDO AIP can also be deployed in existing HDW T-1500 submarines (Shishumar Class) in Indian Navy service.

Indian Navy Fuel Cell AIP Plug. Slide MoD
On submarine indigenisation,Rear Admiral Deshpande saida lot Indian systems will be incorporated in the P-75 (I) submarines, including water cooled propulsion system, switchboards, 415 V NES -607 transformer board, 6.6 kv circuit breaker etc, which have been learnt through the Project 75 project.
Indian Navy LPD to feature electric propulsion, upbeat on DRDO Fuel Cell AIP
I am well aware of this statement. I was asked my opinion and I shared it. I can't give any link or source of my info. If you may kindly read, I stated,"as per my info". ATV was non existant for a long time. Its true status was not known till few years back. In Aug 2013 we suddenly learn that reactor has gone critical. Do you know when is a reactor called critical and how long before that it actually starts operation? I stated longback that reactor is already functional and HATs are being done on the reactor power.
Let me tell you one more thing which was published long back but never shouted upon. The followon series for Arihant is a true blood SSBN, double the size with double powerfull reactor which is already operational and two of them MIGHT do duty in IAC-2.
Why wud IN state that they are contemplating nuke power for IAC-2 which is supposed to be ready by 2022, if the nuke reactor for it is yet to be developed?
as ACP Pradyuman says in TV serial CID,"Kuch toh gadbad hai Daya, Kuch toh Gadbad hai".
 

Decklander

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BTW, since this statement of Adm Joshi, the timeline of first Project 75 has been shifted back by 18 months.
 

sasi

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edit

I am well aware of this statement. I was asked my opinion and I shared it. I can't give any link or source of my info. If you may kindly read, I stated,"as per my info". ATV was non existant for a long time. Its true status was not known till few years back. In Aug 2013 we suddenly learn that reactor has gone critical. Do you know when is a reactor called critical and how long before that it actually starts operation? I stated longback that reactor is already functional and HATs are being done on the reactor power.
Let me tell you one more thing which was published long back but never shouted upon. The followon series for Arihant is a true blood SSBN, double the size with double powerfull reactor which is already operational and two of them MIGHT do duty in IAC-2.
Why wud IN state that they are contemplating nuke power for IAC-2 which is supposed to be ready by 2022, if the nuke reactor for it is yet to be developed?
as ACP Pradyuman says in TV serial CID,"Kuch toh gadbad hai Daya, Kuch toh Gadbad hai".
First 4 subs hull and many internal sub systems are completed. Hence even if delay is taken place. First 4 subs cannot have aips. This decision is taken by none other than naval HQ in 2011 itself. (just check ur source again)
Arihant going critical is not sudden at all. There are many reports abt harbour trails to sea trails from 2011. In this forum itself there are many discussions abt it.
 

Decklander

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Re: edit

First 4 subs hull and many internal sub systems are completed. Hence even if delay is taken place. First 4 subs cannot have aips. This decision is taken by none other than naval HQ in 2011 itself. (just check ur source again)
Arihant going critical is not sudden at all. There are many reports abt harbour trails to sea trails from 2011. In this forum itself there are many discussions abt it.
Bro FYI, I only posted those reports about reactor going critical and was ridiculed by members here.
Regarding, project 75, The metal cutting has not started even now..
 

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