- Joined
- May 26, 2010
- Messages
- 31,122
- Likes
- 41,042
We better off, making our own diesel electrics..
IN Scorpene Submarines - News & Discussions
- Thread starter LETHALFORCE
- Start date
- Joined
- Dec 17, 2009
- Messages
- 13,811
- Likes
- 6,734
How is that? The terms of agreement had been met. If MDL can't do it after being trained, how will they do it with no one to show them?
- Joined
- Dec 17, 2009
- Messages
- 13,811
- Likes
- 6,734
Three more with AIP will be ordered. Then it is on to P-75I.
p2prada
Senior Member
- Joined
- May 25, 2009
- Messages
- 10,234
- Likes
- 4,015
What's the point if MoD simply locks it up in a cupboard like they did with the Bofors guns.even if delay we dont care as long as we are getting TOT....
LETHALFORCE
Mod
- Joined
- Feb 16, 2009
- Messages
- 29,885
- Likes
- 48,597
I will be suprised one day when India announces a project has not been delayed.
- Joined
- Apr 5, 2009
- Messages
- 11,615
- Likes
- 5,772
DCNS insists Scorpene project is on track
Amid reports of India's Scorpene submarine building programme at defence shipyard Mazagon Dock Limited (MDL) suffering another jolt and resultant delay in the wake of the yard's failure to renew its technology assistance contract with the Spanish Navantia, DCNS-India — subsidiary of the French defence shipbuilding firm DCNS which is the original manufacturer of the Scorpenes — insists that the project is very much on track.
"DCNS is the original manufacturer of the Scorpene submarine and we have all the know-how and design authority to perform TOTs [transfer of technology] for the complete submarine. We have provided MDL with technical assistance beyond contractual obligations in order to overcome teething problems and we will continue to do so until [the] successful completion of the project, Bernard Buisson, managing director of DCNS-India, told The Hindu over email when asked about the fallout of Navantia pulling out its consultants from the project.
While Navantia and French firm DCN (which later became DCNS) had jointly developed the Scorpenes, the two parted ways in 2010 following a spat, with DCNS becoming the only manufacturer of the diesel-electric submarines.
In his detailed response, Mr. Buisson chose to tacitly blame MDL for delaying the project for construction of six submarines for the Indian Navy, attributing the teething problems the yard faced and ostensibly overcome to its lack of submarine building experience in the last 15 years as also to the contractual obligation of building the entire class in India.
""¦.MDL had stopped manufacturing submarines for more than 15 years. Indeed, no shipyard can retain the expertise, know-how and trained staff if there is no permanent activity to maintain a minimum level of competence.
"Another specificity of this project is that all the six submarines are being built in MDL. Usually, for such contracts involving complex TOTs, the first of class (first submarine) is always manufactured at the OEM's [original equipment manufacturer] shipyard with on-the-job training (OJT) from the buyer's shipyard who can thus acquire know-how more rapidly," he said.
The MDL had now been able to manufacture hulls of all six submarines as fast and with the same level of quality as DCNS would in its shipyard in France, he added.
According to Mr. Buisson, MDL's complex procurement procedures too contributed to the delay.
""¦ The procurement of a large quantity of equipment from many different overseas suppliers is not an easy task and some of these foreign small and medium enterprises are not used to deal[ing] directly with foreign shipyards like MDL who have complex procurement procedures.
DCNS insists Scorpene project is on track - The Hindu
Amid reports of India's Scorpene submarine building programme at defence shipyard Mazagon Dock Limited (MDL) suffering another jolt and resultant delay in the wake of the yard's failure to renew its technology assistance contract with the Spanish Navantia, DCNS-India — subsidiary of the French defence shipbuilding firm DCNS which is the original manufacturer of the Scorpenes — insists that the project is very much on track.
"DCNS is the original manufacturer of the Scorpene submarine and we have all the know-how and design authority to perform TOTs [transfer of technology] for the complete submarine. We have provided MDL with technical assistance beyond contractual obligations in order to overcome teething problems and we will continue to do so until [the] successful completion of the project, Bernard Buisson, managing director of DCNS-India, told The Hindu over email when asked about the fallout of Navantia pulling out its consultants from the project.
While Navantia and French firm DCN (which later became DCNS) had jointly developed the Scorpenes, the two parted ways in 2010 following a spat, with DCNS becoming the only manufacturer of the diesel-electric submarines.
In his detailed response, Mr. Buisson chose to tacitly blame MDL for delaying the project for construction of six submarines for the Indian Navy, attributing the teething problems the yard faced and ostensibly overcome to its lack of submarine building experience in the last 15 years as also to the contractual obligation of building the entire class in India.
""¦.MDL had stopped manufacturing submarines for more than 15 years. Indeed, no shipyard can retain the expertise, know-how and trained staff if there is no permanent activity to maintain a minimum level of competence.
"Another specificity of this project is that all the six submarines are being built in MDL. Usually, for such contracts involving complex TOTs, the first of class (first submarine) is always manufactured at the OEM's [original equipment manufacturer] shipyard with on-the-job training (OJT) from the buyer's shipyard who can thus acquire know-how more rapidly," he said.
The MDL had now been able to manufacture hulls of all six submarines as fast and with the same level of quality as DCNS would in its shipyard in France, he added.
According to Mr. Buisson, MDL's complex procurement procedures too contributed to the delay.
""¦ The procurement of a large quantity of equipment from many different overseas suppliers is not an easy task and some of these foreign small and medium enterprises are not used to deal[ing] directly with foreign shipyards like MDL who have complex procurement procedures.
DCNS insists Scorpene project is on track - The Hindu
brahmos:thumb:
- Joined
- Dec 17, 2009
- Messages
- 13,811
- Likes
- 6,734
- Joined
- Dec 25, 2012
- Messages
- 6,242
- Likes
- 7,522
Scorpene project's management being questioned
Even as the Scorpene submarine project gets further delayed, serious questions are being raised on the way one of India's biggest defence contracts is being managed.
TOI on Monday had reported that the Scorpene submarine project has been delayed by another 18 months, and that the first submarine would be ready for induction only by 2016-end. The report had also said that the Spanish consultants working on the programme at Mazagon Dock Limited (MDL) in Mumbai had left last month, after MDL failed to extend their contract.
Several developments surrounding the project are now raising questions regarding the way the Rs 23,000 crore project is being managed. The mismanagement being alleged by sources is best captured by the way MLD has handled Transfer of Design Data (TDD), sets of CDs containing specifics about the submarine and related technology. Some 30% of the contract was meant for transfer of technology, best symbolized by TDD.
Though four batches of a total of six TDDs have reached MDL, they are yet to be even opened, because the CAD 5 software to run the CDs is yet to be acquired by MDL.
Though consultants from French submarine maker DCNS had advised MDL in 2006 to buy 2000-tonne press for bending the thick steel plates, supplied by ArcelorMittal, into hull for the submarines, MDL acquired it only in 2011. By then, the contract for bending the steel plates had been outsourced. The press now lies idle in MDL, with no steel to press since all the hulls have already been made.
At least a couple of sources familiar with the project raised questions on the way the project director at MDL, Commodore Gopal Bharti, was allowed to take premature retirement. Bharti, who owns an apartment in the controversial Adarsh housing society that is under CBI investigation, was purportedly given vigilance clearance by the ministry though the CVC was probing a whistleblower complaint of alleged irregularities against him.
Inquiries also reveal that there may be more systemic troubles with the way the costly project is being handled. For example, MDL had signed a 65 million euro contract with both DCNS and Spanish firm Navantia for 'Advising & Overseeing Team', and it was to end on March 15, 2013. During the period these consultants were in Mumbai, instead of focussing on completing the first submarine, including its outfitting as was specified in the contract, construction of all the six hulls were undertaken.
Now with the Spanish team out of the project and the French expected to demand more money, MDL is virtually at their mercy because only about 30% of the contract has been completed, and most of the outfitting is remaining and for that the experts are a must.
Even as the Scorpene submarine project gets further delayed, serious questions are being raised on the way one of India's biggest defence contracts is being managed.
TOI on Monday had reported that the Scorpene submarine project has been delayed by another 18 months, and that the first submarine would be ready for induction only by 2016-end. The report had also said that the Spanish consultants working on the programme at Mazagon Dock Limited (MDL) in Mumbai had left last month, after MDL failed to extend their contract.
Several developments surrounding the project are now raising questions regarding the way the Rs 23,000 crore project is being managed. The mismanagement being alleged by sources is best captured by the way MLD has handled Transfer of Design Data (TDD), sets of CDs containing specifics about the submarine and related technology. Some 30% of the contract was meant for transfer of technology, best symbolized by TDD.
Though four batches of a total of six TDDs have reached MDL, they are yet to be even opened, because the CAD 5 software to run the CDs is yet to be acquired by MDL.
Though consultants from French submarine maker DCNS had advised MDL in 2006 to buy 2000-tonne press for bending the thick steel plates, supplied by ArcelorMittal, into hull for the submarines, MDL acquired it only in 2011. By then, the contract for bending the steel plates had been outsourced. The press now lies idle in MDL, with no steel to press since all the hulls have already been made.
At least a couple of sources familiar with the project raised questions on the way the project director at MDL, Commodore Gopal Bharti, was allowed to take premature retirement. Bharti, who owns an apartment in the controversial Adarsh housing society that is under CBI investigation, was purportedly given vigilance clearance by the ministry though the CVC was probing a whistleblower complaint of alleged irregularities against him.
Inquiries also reveal that there may be more systemic troubles with the way the costly project is being handled. For example, MDL had signed a 65 million euro contract with both DCNS and Spanish firm Navantia for 'Advising & Overseeing Team', and it was to end on March 15, 2013. During the period these consultants were in Mumbai, instead of focussing on completing the first submarine, including its outfitting as was specified in the contract, construction of all the six hulls were undertaken.
Now with the Spanish team out of the project and the French expected to demand more money, MDL is virtually at their mercy because only about 30% of the contract has been completed, and most of the outfitting is remaining and for that the experts are a must.
Abhijeet Dey
Senior Member
- Joined
- May 6, 2013
- Messages
- 1,735
- Likes
- 2,467
First 4 scorpene submarines will not have AIP technology whereas last two will miss their targets for installing indigenous AIP. So they will have to use old age snorkeling technique. All Pakistani submarines are having AIP technology. Will these Agosta submarines have any combat advantage on these first 4 scorpene submarines? Isn't these a waste of money by the Indian Navy?
- Joined
- Dec 25, 2012
- Messages
- 6,242
- Likes
- 7,522
Scorpene sub delayed by one more year
It is official. Gloomy days aren't over for the Scorpene submarine project. Plagued by years of delays and subsequent cost overruns, the project being executed by defence shipyard Mazagon Dock in Mumbai has missed the deadline once again, dealing a body blow to the Navy's desperate effort to pull its impuissant submarine arm out of the trough.
The French-origin submarines, being built under a transfer of technology (ToT) contract, will not be available for induction into the submarine-starved Navy in 2015, as promised by the yard. The revised target for delivery of the first of the six Scorpenes is September 2016, with the remaining hopefully entering service at the rate of one submarine every 12 months thereon.
"We have set a new target of September 2016 for delivery of the first Scorpene," confirmed Rear Admiral (retd.) Rahul Kumar Shrawat, Chairman and Managing Director of Mazagon Dock Limited (MDL) during an interaction with The Hindu in Kozhikode recently. Rear Admiral Shrawat says orders for the third and final batch of 178 high-value items — outfitting equipment that gained an unsavoury reputation as MDL-Procured Material (MPM) after the yard's cumbersome and hazy procurement procedures held up the project for over two years — was placed on DCNS, the original manufacturer of the Scorpenes, in November last year.
The orders were placed on a single contractor to save the yard from the burden of having to deal with a large number of foreign vendors. The process inter alia ensured transparency and ease of procurement, Rear Admiral Shrawat said explaining the delay.
The Navy, however, is livid over the yard's persistent disregard for deadlines. Top Navy officials rue that by the time the Scorpenes are commissioned, they would be obsolete. The first three Scorpenes will not even have air independent propulsion (AIP), a technology that enhances underwater endurance of submarines several times over, they point out. Without AIP, submarines are forced to surface once in a few days to recharge their batteries, a process when they are most susceptible to detection.
The contract for construction of the Scorpenes was inked in 2005, with the first originally slated for delivery in 2012. MDL's long-drawn procurement processes and sluggishness in technology absorption gave the projects hiccups at the start itself. Meanwhile, the project cost grew exponentially from the original Rs.18,798 crore to Rs. 23,562 crore in 2010 with a renewed timeline.
ANOTHER ROADBLOCK
DCNS' takeover of Armaris, the company with which the contract was signed, contributed to the complexities in sourcing of stipulated equipment. The project faced another roadblock with the yard failing to renew its technology assistance contract with the Spanish Navantia, co-developer of the Scorpenes, early this year.
While the country head of DCNS, in an interview with The Hindu in April, gave an assurance of "technical assistance [to the project] beyond contractual obligations," it is believed that any further hold-up would result in the company making a plea for extra fee.
It is official. Gloomy days aren't over for the Scorpene submarine project. Plagued by years of delays and subsequent cost overruns, the project being executed by defence shipyard Mazagon Dock in Mumbai has missed the deadline once again, dealing a body blow to the Navy's desperate effort to pull its impuissant submarine arm out of the trough.
The French-origin submarines, being built under a transfer of technology (ToT) contract, will not be available for induction into the submarine-starved Navy in 2015, as promised by the yard. The revised target for delivery of the first of the six Scorpenes is September 2016, with the remaining hopefully entering service at the rate of one submarine every 12 months thereon.
"We have set a new target of September 2016 for delivery of the first Scorpene," confirmed Rear Admiral (retd.) Rahul Kumar Shrawat, Chairman and Managing Director of Mazagon Dock Limited (MDL) during an interaction with The Hindu in Kozhikode recently. Rear Admiral Shrawat says orders for the third and final batch of 178 high-value items — outfitting equipment that gained an unsavoury reputation as MDL-Procured Material (MPM) after the yard's cumbersome and hazy procurement procedures held up the project for over two years — was placed on DCNS, the original manufacturer of the Scorpenes, in November last year.
The orders were placed on a single contractor to save the yard from the burden of having to deal with a large number of foreign vendors. The process inter alia ensured transparency and ease of procurement, Rear Admiral Shrawat said explaining the delay.
The Navy, however, is livid over the yard's persistent disregard for deadlines. Top Navy officials rue that by the time the Scorpenes are commissioned, they would be obsolete. The first three Scorpenes will not even have air independent propulsion (AIP), a technology that enhances underwater endurance of submarines several times over, they point out. Without AIP, submarines are forced to surface once in a few days to recharge their batteries, a process when they are most susceptible to detection.
The contract for construction of the Scorpenes was inked in 2005, with the first originally slated for delivery in 2012. MDL's long-drawn procurement processes and sluggishness in technology absorption gave the projects hiccups at the start itself. Meanwhile, the project cost grew exponentially from the original Rs.18,798 crore to Rs. 23,562 crore in 2010 with a renewed timeline.
ANOTHER ROADBLOCK
DCNS' takeover of Armaris, the company with which the contract was signed, contributed to the complexities in sourcing of stipulated equipment. The project faced another roadblock with the yard failing to renew its technology assistance contract with the Spanish Navantia, co-developer of the Scorpenes, early this year.
While the country head of DCNS, in an interview with The Hindu in April, gave an assurance of "technical assistance [to the project] beyond contractual obligations," it is believed that any further hold-up would result in the company making a plea for extra fee.
- Joined
- Dec 17, 2009
- Messages
- 13,811
- Likes
- 6,734
Sorry for that outburst, it is just that MDL's incompetence gets on my nerves. Maybe if we start places fines on the yard they would speed things up?
Dinesh_Kumar
Regular Member
- Joined
- Jun 20, 2013
- Messages
- 518
- Likes
- 231
Man , India now has her own version of Collins Class cock up.....
Well , we tried French Soup, and we didn't like the taste.
Better to stick with rasam and sambhar , Thank You Very Much.
As for your view about food not palatable as India not cooking properly, i'd like to add my own view, which is far older and (probably) makes more sense
" Too many cooks spoil the broth - DCNS + Spanish "experts" and their sinking sub + "Mazagaon Procured Items", etc., etc.
The CMD of MD should appear before a parliamentary committee and explain how all these decisions taken have
1. benefited India,
2. helped her make subs,
3. addressed concerns about depleting sub fleet
Armand, this as a warning to the French: : You guys will always need money and have to be credible when doing business. If you think you can get away with a con job like the Scorpene fiasco, you will have difficulty selling the Next Gen model, not only in India, but in the rest of the world.
Bofors AB (remember them) was supposed to sell 1500 Artillery Pieces to India, but after blacklisting , they managed 36 to Nigeria I think.
No one else in the world touched them.
Thats all. 36.
Nothing more after that.
Those dorks have even come in the India News Media and said stuff like " If you need help translating your technical documents in ANY capacity, please feel free to contact us"
If this was another French Mistake, we'll probably pull up our socks and buy German next time.
Their U-214 has 30 + orders, many from Asia like S. Korea and Turkey. Initial glitches in S. Korea seem resolved and follow on orders have taken place.
What is your opinion on the U-214 Submarine, Armand ?
Well , we tried French Soup, and we didn't like the taste.
Better to stick with rasam and sambhar , Thank You Very Much.
As for your view about food not palatable as India not cooking properly, i'd like to add my own view, which is far older and (probably) makes more sense
" Too many cooks spoil the broth - DCNS + Spanish "experts" and their sinking sub + "Mazagaon Procured Items", etc., etc.
The CMD of MD should appear before a parliamentary committee and explain how all these decisions taken have
1. benefited India,
2. helped her make subs,
3. addressed concerns about depleting sub fleet
Armand, this as a warning to the French: : You guys will always need money and have to be credible when doing business. If you think you can get away with a con job like the Scorpene fiasco, you will have difficulty selling the Next Gen model, not only in India, but in the rest of the world.
Bofors AB (remember them) was supposed to sell 1500 Artillery Pieces to India, but after blacklisting , they managed 36 to Nigeria I think.
No one else in the world touched them.
Thats all. 36.
Nothing more after that.
Those dorks have even come in the India News Media and said stuff like " If you need help translating your technical documents in ANY capacity, please feel free to contact us"
If this was another French Mistake, we'll probably pull up our socks and buy German next time.
Their U-214 has 30 + orders, many from Asia like S. Korea and Turkey. Initial glitches in S. Korea seem resolved and follow on orders have taken place.
What is your opinion on the U-214 Submarine, Armand ?
- Joined
- Dec 17, 2009
- Messages
- 13,811
- Likes
- 6,734
Name one thing DCNS has done wrong. It isn't their fault MDL had a hard time absorbing ToT, nor was it their fault FinMin didn't long lead the procurement package for components, nor was it their fault Navantia decided to ditch the project. Name what the fault is...
Abhi9
Regular Member
- Joined
- Aug 25, 2012
- Messages
- 562
- Likes
- 1,582
Thats what happens when you place military commanders to do a executive job. Wrong Person at the Wrong time. Just because a person knows how to take a submarine to war will not justify for him to take a Managerial Position. That's the sad part of MOD appointments. Its a business and there are no implications for over-runs , delays because MOD babus who eat money together with the help of this commanders will bail each other out. No accountability for tax-payers money at all.
And more importantly, no accountability for the security of the nation.No strategic and visionary planning at all.
Interest of the nation is not a priority but interest to fill own pockets. But what we can we say or do. All we can do is play our part in the society in a honest way. M.K gandhi said be the change you wish to see. In today it should be" Cut the head of the snake and watch the body rot".
And more importantly, no accountability for the security of the nation.No strategic and visionary planning at all.
Interest of the nation is not a priority but interest to fill own pockets. But what we can we say or do. All we can do is play our part in the society in a honest way. M.K gandhi said be the change you wish to see. In today it should be" Cut the head of the snake and watch the body rot".
Dinesh_Kumar
Regular Member
- Joined
- Jun 20, 2013
- Messages
- 518
- Likes
- 231
Many Weapons Programmes/ Companies have Military Commanders as leaders, and have done well.
This seems like some complicated mis-management, with each side waiting for other to make first move, and resting while waiting.
This seems like some complicated mis-management, with each side waiting for other to make first move, and resting while waiting.
Abhi9
Regular Member
- Joined
- Aug 25, 2012
- Messages
- 562
- Likes
- 1,582
The thing is Military commanders should not be given these positions, because some are and i repeat some are influenced by the babu-dealer nexus to serve their interest and it begets wrong name to thousands of officers who take oath to protect us and serve with distinction and no-regard for their own life.
Miltary commanders should be the ones who look into the weapons development and procurement that our military needs for the future. They are the ones who should look into our doctrines and offensive capability. These should not be done by Babus.
Its the opposite, people who should be caretakers of weapon procurement and development are heading these companies(Military commanders) and babus who are trained to do these things are eating money sitting in the procurement and development process
Dinesh_Kumar
Regular Member
- Joined
- Jun 20, 2013
- Messages
- 518
- Likes
- 231
Man, there are many problems which need to be fixed, leaks plugged and things need to be moving......
Blame and fault always rests with the User/ Buyer, not the Seller. Consequences also are being paid for the same,
It was originally to be 2005-2012 time frame, but now, who knows?
If the French are able to sort out this mess, and ensure smooth sailing from now on, it will definitely benefit them. Customers' confidence will be re-gained (I don' t only mean Indian Customers).
US Aircraft Companies like LM kept giving us (common people) updates on the C-130 J Production Status. Man that line is running!
Its puzzling as DCNS made about 10 Scorpenes and similar before Indian Order (Malaysia, Chile, Pakistan , Spain, etc.) and everyone assumed they know it like the back of their hand. It was merely setting up another line in another part of the world.
Indians may not be best workers, as per French Ambassador, but on paper, such venture looked feasible.
I dunno who is to blame, but I know we are being hit hard, in Navy fleet. It hurts man.
Blame and fault always rests with the User/ Buyer, not the Seller. Consequences also are being paid for the same,
It was originally to be 2005-2012 time frame, but now, who knows?
If the French are able to sort out this mess, and ensure smooth sailing from now on, it will definitely benefit them. Customers' confidence will be re-gained (I don' t only mean Indian Customers).
US Aircraft Companies like LM kept giving us (common people) updates on the C-130 J Production Status. Man that line is running!
Its puzzling as DCNS made about 10 Scorpenes and similar before Indian Order (Malaysia, Chile, Pakistan , Spain, etc.) and everyone assumed they know it like the back of their hand. It was merely setting up another line in another part of the world.
Indians may not be best workers, as per French Ambassador, but on paper, such venture looked feasible.
I dunno who is to blame, but I know we are being hit hard, in Navy fleet. It hurts man.
Abhijeet Dey
Senior Member
- Joined
- May 6, 2013
- Messages
- 1,735
- Likes
- 2,467
So it is confirmed that first three scorpene submarines won't be having Air Independent propulsion technology. Should these three submarines be used for training purposes or for combat? Top Indian Navy officials are saying they will be obsolete when commissioned.
Do Indian submarines without AIP technology have any disadvantage against enemy submarines with AIP?
