IN Scorpene Submarines - News & Discussions

[LETHALFORCE]

whats program pace. i almost forget india is going for 6 scorpene. its soo sloww

Much of the delay is because India is going to be placing indigenous AIP in them.

 

[agentperry]

Much of the delay is because India is going to be placing indigenous AIP in them.

is this true. last i heard was that this submarine will be completely french but made in india

 

[LETHALFORCE]

is this true. last i heard was that this submarine will be completely french but made in india

India’s Multi-billion Dollar Scorpene Sub Contract

Naval Chief Admiral Arun Prakash has said that the agreement gives India the option of incorporating AIP technology after delivery of the 3rd submarines. India's Navy appeared to be opting for this choice for Scorpenes 4-6, but has yet to make a firm decision, or sign a contract. They're now talking about fielding only submarines 5 & 6 as AIP boats, alongside all of the 6 follow-on Project 75i submarines.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Much more scorpene details and chronology in link

India’s Multi-billion Dollar Scorpene Sub Contract

 

[sasi]

I heard last two only have AIP. First 4 will get during midlife upgrade time only. Since AIP is 1m length,to fit it we have to cut sub. It take long process to validate all joints. Hence i believe last 2 have AIP.

 

[SATISH]

If I am not mistaken even the Russian Navy is having second thoughts about the scorpenes so you may be able to get them at a good price. At least the monkey versions.

Russian Navy or the French?

Why would Russian Navy have thoughts about a French sub?

 

[cobra commando]

Scorpene submarine purchase put on hold

New Delhi, March 11, 2013

The VVIP helicopter scam has cast its shadow on yet another naval project as the defence ministry is withholding a decision on the procurement of 100 Black Shark torpedos from a Finmeccanica group company for six Scorpene submarines.

The government had not taken a decision on the procurement of these heavy-weight and long-range torpedoes, which may remain effective against all types of surface and under-sea targets for the next 20 years. The torpedoes are manufactured by Whitehead Alenia Sistemi Subacquei, which is a Finmeccanica group company.

Following the VVIP-helicopter scam in which former top executives of Finmeccanica and its UK-based helicopter-making subsidiary AgustaWestland are involved, all deals with Finmeccanica group companies are under scanner. Following the choppergate, the defence ministry has put on hold further delivery of nine VVIP choppers and all payments due to the company.

The first three copters arrived in December and Agusta received almost 45 per cent of the payment before the controversy broke. But still there is no clarity on how contracts being negotiated or concluded with other Finmeccanica group companies would be dealt with by the defence ministry.

Defence Minister A K Antony informed Lok Sabha that the ministry received representation (on the Black Shark deal) from one competing vendor and MPs. No names were given.A special technical oversight committee was constituted with approval from defence acquisition council to review the evaluation process and complaints.

Scorpene submarine purchase put on hold

 

[nrj]

Poor MDL. Seasons change but not their bad luck !

 

[average american]

Nuclear submarine INS Chakra facing problems with critical components: Navy


PTI Dec 24, 2012, 05.01AM IST

INS Chakra Component Problems|
INS Chakra|
Indian Navy

(INS Chakra. )


NEW DELHI: India's only Russian-origin nuclear submarine INS Chakra is facing problems with its critical components affecting its operational readiness.

The 8,000-tonne submarine has been facing problems with its critical components and Russia has been asked to provide the parts for the vessel which need to be replaced, Navy sources told PTI here.

However, they did not divulge the components which would have to be replaced but indicated they are critical for the operations of the submarine.

India had inducted the Akula-II Class 'Nerpa' nuclear submarine in its inventory in April this year at the Vishakhapatnam-based Eastern Naval Command. It was renamed 'Chakra' by the Indian Navy.

The Russian submarine had met with an accident in November 2008 when it was undergoing sea trials in the Sea of Japan in which around twenty sailors were killed and several others were left injured.

The submarine was launched in 1993-94 but its construction was held up since then due to lack of funds with the Russian Navy.

However, in 2004, the Russian side decided to build it after reaching a ten-year lease agreement for operation of the submarine with the Indian side.

With INS Chakra and the yet-to-be-inducted indigenously built INS Arihant, India is planning to have two nuclear submarines guarding its vast maritime boundary.

With a maximum speed of 30 knots, Chakra can go to a depth of 600 metres and has an endurance of 100 days with a crew of 73. However, as per the lease accord, it cannot carry nuclear warheads.

The vessel is armed with four 533mm and four 650mm torpedo tubes.

India had leased and operated a Charlie-class Russian nuclear submarine, also called 'Chakra', in 1988 for training its personnel on such submarines.

Some componets are highly complicated and take special materials, manfacturing processes, and skills that were part of the USSR but not manfactured in Russia. In many cases these factories and the people will the skills and even the orignal research are not available.

 

[average american]

Russian Navy or the French?

Why would Russian Navy have thoughts about a French sub?

I was thinking about the Severodvinsk, the flagship for the new Yasen class of large scale Russian submarines, has failed sea trials in the White Sea, revealing reactor power problems, noisy operation, untested missile equipment, faulty components and huge cost overruns that will cause further problems and setbacks for the vessel's scheduled serial production. Charles Digges, 14/08-2012
A military source told Russian papers that the navy was laying most of its chips on the table with the Yasen design, saying its status as a multipurpose nuclear sub means it will be a first alert "against missile cruisers from western countries."

But an anonymous Ministry of Defense source cited by the Russian newsire interfax said the Severodvinsk is hardly up to that task after the results of its sea trials were known.

"The Severodvinsk tests revealed that its nuclear power unit did not reach the rated capacity, and the submarine produced too much noise," the defense Ministry source told Interfax.

"It is impossible to commission the submarine with such serious shortcomings," he said.

Designed during Soviet times, the Severodvinsk is outfitted with 24 supersonic Onyx anti-ship missiles that can destroy an aircraft carrier in one blow, and 10 torpedo tubes for launching self-guided torpedoes – topping its closest American competitor by six. The sub is also expected to have an undersea speed of 30 knots and a maximum submersion depth of 600 meters. It is designed to sustain autonomous voyages of up to 100 days and will be crewed by 90, 32 of whom will be offiers, said Interfax.

All of this begs the question: What kind of conflict is Russia anticipating?

One hint might lie in President Vladimir Putin's visit to Russia's northern shipyards in July, where he stumped for increased Arctic sub patrols to protect Russia's continental shelf oil and gas recovery projects -– a kind of paranoid overkill to protect the resources on which the Russian economy is built.

But military analysts and observers are saying this kind of firepower will place an extreme weight on Russia's limited military coffers.

"President Putin loves toys with price tags surpassing the size of Russia's wallet. But this is the problem of Russian taxpayers who should draw certain conclusions when they cast their votes," said Igor Kudrik, a Bellona expert on nuclear submarines and the Russian Navy. "Our concern is planned militarization of the Arctic which not only is not going to make it safer, but pose additional dangers with respect to the environment as well."

Constructed by the Sevmash shipyard near Arkangelsk, the Severodvinsk– designated by the identification number K-329, and the first of the project 885 Yasen Class – was to have been passed to the Russian Navy by Sevmash in 1998, after first construction began on it in1993. Several missed deadlines later, the boat was to be launched in 2010. That was then delayed until 2011.

Now, according to reports in business daily Kommersant and official mouthpiece Izvestia, the latest sea trial indicates the sub likely will not be ready until summer of 2013.

One of the problems, according to an anonymous source cited by Interfax, is that the reactor not only doesn't deliver enough power for the vessel, but that the vessel's operation is also noisy – something undesirable in the stealth mode in which submarines are to operate.

Defense Ministry sources refused to comment on either issue, so details on the reactor's integrity are sketchy.

The enormous submarine represents something of a return to big Cold War thinking: With a water displacement of 13.8 tons, it is twice as large as the US Navy's Virginia Class attack submarines. But the US has backed off mega-submarine projects comparable to the Yasen since the end of the Cold War out of simple economic considerations. Russia, notes Izvestia, is pressing on – delays and drying wallets be damned.

Another unnamed military source that spoke with Izvestia blamed spiking costs in metal, electricity to power the Sevmash shipyard, and rising salaries for qualified welders and metal workers for the Severodvinsk's cost overruns.

The source said the Severodvinsk has so far cost the Ministry of Defense some 50 billion roubles ($1.5 billion) – the equivalent cost of two Borei class nuclear subs, the first of which was launched in 2008, or 50 SU-35 fighter planes.

The second Yasen class sub after the Severodvinsk, the Kazan, is projected to be over twice as expensive, weighing in at 110 billion roubles, the source told Izvestia. The military had been counting on paying something more on the order of 70-80 billion roubles per sub, eight of which are planned to be built by 2020.

The Yasen class is therefore projected to cost 700-800 billion roubles, or five percent of Russia's defense budget over the next 10 years, Izvestia said.

But does this cost justify protecting the untapped Arctic oil and gas reserves on which Putin so relies for Russia's economic growth?

The Yury Dolgoruky – the first of the Borei Class to take to sea – and the Soviet built Delta and Typhoon class subs the Borei Class was meant to replace -– will, for the time being, have to shoulder that burden. Three more Borei class subs are currently under construction and due to take to sea by 2015.

That Sevmash was having problems getting the Severodvinsk to perform to standard after so many delays was greeted in Russian headlines as a failure.

But Igor Korotchenko, head of the Defense Ministry's public council, told Kommersant that failure was too harsh a characterization.

"["¦] we are for the first time beginning to build and test vessels of this generation – and correspondingly this is a new product, advanced, and therefore certain deficiencies and problems are revealed at the stage of testing for delivery, which will then be eliminated by industrial production," he said.

Korotchenko refused to comment on the Interfax reports of reactor power problems and noisy operation of the Severodvinsk because the information had come from an anonymous source, he told the paper.

"If this had been done in an official announcement from, let's say, a representative of the military industrial complex, or the Sevmash factory, or anybody from the Defense Ministry, we could at least say the information was trustworthy," he said. "For now, I can only say that the Severodvinsk is a low-noise submarine."

He repeated that he was sure any kinks would be worked out at the level of industrial production.

"The sub contains many innovations," he said. "We've never had a sub like this."

Ironically, noted Kudrik, the so-called innovations that are holding up the Severodvinsk's completion are based on blueprints that are over 20 years old.

"Soviet and Russian submarines have always being noisy due to the poor quality of building materials," said Kudrik. "The reactor plant installed on this submarine is of newer design and it seems to be suffering from not being properly tested. Russian industry has been in shambles ever since the collapse of the Soviet Union and recovery is protracted and painful," he said, adding, "This new submarine is an example of how bad things are."

Other analysts suggested that scaling back on the Yasen Class's military hardware could lessen the strain on the Russian military budget.

"The high cost of the Yasen is justified by the highest military capabilities of the vessel," Captain 1st Rank Konstantin Sivkov, and vice-president of the Academy of Geopolitical Problems, told Izvestia. "If they can bring the price down, it will cost not much more than the Virginia Class sub, but will nonetheless be more powerful than the American vessel."

But Kudrik says that bringing the price down remains a pipe dream in today's Russia. The problems with corruption and the wasteful handling of resources are endemic in Russia's current regime - and those problems will never escape this single submarine project.

Meanwhile, in another PR stunt meant to showcase Russia's military prowess, the Washington Free Beacon reported Tuesday that a Russian Akula Class submarine had been buzzing the coast of the US's Gulf of Mexico undetected by the US Navy for weeks.

Its presence was only known after a news leak to western media. The last time a Russian sub is known to have penetrated US waters was in 2009, the paper said.

The submarine patrol comes at a time when US President Barack Obama is planning defense cuts of up to $487 billion over the next 10 years. Russian analysts speculated that the news leak was a means of applying pressure on the Obama administration to maintain defense spending – a time honored Cold War tactic of mutually assured bankruptcy.

The Defense Ministry's Korotchenko confirmed that this was indeed the intention, stressing to the paper that the notion of a Russian military threat was being used to persuade US officials that budget cuts to the defense industry would harm the United States' national security.

Whether the US will take the bait remains unknown, but naval analyst Norman Polmar told the Washington-based paper that the incursion – and news leak about it – where meant to raise hackles.

"Sending a nuclear-propelled submarine into the Gulf of Mexico-Caribbean region is another manifestation of President Putin demonstrating that Russia is still a player on the world's political-military stage," naval analyst Norman Polmar told the Washington-based newspaper.

"The Russian Navy provides him with a means of 'showing the flag' that is not possible with Russian air and ground forces," Polmar said.

Korotchenko glowed with evident pride in his comments to Vzglyad newspaper about the Akula's incursion.

"This tells us that Russia still has potential and that the country is capable of missions that cover our fleet in prestige and respect," he said.

 

[afako]

Nuclear submarine INS Chakra facing problems with critical components: Navy


PTI Dec 24, 2012, 05.01AM IST

INS Chakra Component Problems|
INS Chakra|
Indian Navy

(INS Chakra. )


NEW DELHI: India's only Russian-origin nuclear submarine INS Chakra is facing problems with its critical components affecting its operational readiness.

The 8,000-tonne submarine has been facing problems with its critical components and Russia has been asked to provide the parts for the vessel which need to be replaced, Navy sources told PTI here.

However, they did not divulge the components which would have to be replaced but indicated they are critical for the operations of the submarine.

India had inducted the Akula-II Class 'Nerpa' nuclear submarine in its inventory in April this year at the Vishakhapatnam-based Eastern Naval Command. It was renamed 'Chakra' by the Indian Navy.

The Russian submarine had met with an accident in November 2008 when it was undergoing sea trials in the Sea of Japan in which around twenty sailors were killed and several others were left injured.

The submarine was launched in 1993-94 but its construction was held up since then due to lack of funds with the Russian Navy.

However, in 2004, the Russian side decided to build it after reaching a ten-year lease agreement for operation of the submarine with the Indian side.

With INS Chakra and the yet-to-be-inducted indigenously built INS Arihant, India is planning to have two nuclear submarines guarding its vast maritime boundary.

With a maximum speed of 30 knots, Chakra can go to a depth of 600 metres and has an endurance of 100 days with a crew of 73. However, as per the lease accord, it cannot carry nuclear warheads.

The vessel is armed with four 533mm and four 650mm torpedo tubes.

India had leased and operated a Charlie-class Russian nuclear submarine, also called 'Chakra', in 1988 for training its personnel on such submarines.

Some componets are highly complicated and take special materials, manfacturing processes, and skills that were part of the USSR but not manfactured in Russia. In many cases these factories and the people will the skills and even the orignal research are not available.

Modern Submarines are very complex. Every Major Submarine Program in the World is faced with Cost Over Runs, Delays, Engineering and Technological Challenges.

Scorpene - Spain delayed by 2 years, Malaysia has its own issues.

Birtuds Astute:

The problems with the cost and delivery of Britain's new nuclear-powered hunter-killer submarines were set out in uncompromising detail in a report published by the National Audit Office this time last year.

An NAO report from 2002 noted the Astute was supposed to have been launched in 2005, but that technical difficulties had pushed this back to 2006. In fact, the boat was not finished until 2009. Nine years after it was commissioned, and despite remedial work to the contract that cost the MoD an extra £400m, the Astute was still proving to be the military's biggest procurement headache, with the cost of the programme growing by more than any other major defence project. Even now the costs are continuing to rise, with the NAO predicting the programme is now almost £2bn over budget – more than the cost of a single new submarine.

US Virginia Class.

Russia Yasen Class

 

[bhramos]

First Scorpene submarine would be ready by 2014: French envoy | Business Standard

 

[Daredevil]

First Scorpene submarine would be ready by 2014

The first of the six Scorpene submarines ordered by the Indian Navy from French firm DCNS in 2005, as part of the technology transfer between the two countries, will be rolled out by 2014, France's top diplomat in India said on Saturday."The first submarine would be ready by 2014, heralding an important and strategic tie-up between both the nations on the defence front", said Francois Richier, Ambassador of France in India, adding the rest of five submarines would be delivered every subsequent year.
"Such kind of submarines are important for Indian Navy considering the long coast it has to guard", he said.

Richier is in Goa to visit French Destroyer 'FNS Montcalm' which is here as the part of training exercises with the Indian Navy.

The six Scorpenes are being constructed at the Mazagon Dockyards Limited (MDL) in Mumbai under Project-75 under technology transfer from French firm DCNS.

The government approval for construction of the six submarines was accorded in September 2005 at a total cost of Rs 18,798 crore and the contract was signed in October that year.

The project cost was revised to Rs 23,562 crore in February 2010, along with revision in delivery schedule.

"The induction of Scorpene submarines would enhance Indian Navy's capabilities to conduct exercises in the open sea. These are the last generation of conventional submarines", a senior French naval officer said.

Designed for coastal defence against under-water threats, the 1,750-tonne submarine-submarine-killer (SSK) Scorpene is 67 meters in length and can dive to a depth of 300 meters. Ccording to French naval officials, the submarine can stay at sea for 45 days with a crew of 31.

The standard version has six torpedo tubes and anti-shipping missile launchers

-PTI

 

[drkrn]

how many additional scorpenes can be ordered?

 

[shiphone]

happen to read this on BR forum ...???...

Scorpene submarine project to miss target again as Spanish consultants quit
.Josy Joseph, TNN | Apr 15, 2013, 05.21 AM IST

NEW DELHI: The Scorpene submarine project underway in Mumbai has suffered fresh troubles, with a new assessment showing another 18 months of delay even as its Spanish consultants have left the venture.

According to sources, Mazagon Dock Limited (MDL) has informed the Navy that the project would be delayed by another 18 months from the 2015 deadline announced by defence minister AK Antony in Parliament last year.

Going by the latest MDL projections, the first Scorpene submarine would be ready for induction only by 2016-end. When the contract was signed, the first submarine was to be ready in 2012. However, the delay could be worse, according to other developments over the last few days.

Consultants from Navantia, the Spanish shipbuilding company, left the project in the last few days. The technical assistance pact for Navantia and DCNS, the French partner in the consortium, expired on March 31, sources said. With MDL failing to get the defence ministry's approval in time, about 10 Spanish consultants working on the submarine project left India. This could further add to the delay, sources said.

Adding to the troubles over the massive submarine project, with a budget of over Rs 23,000 crore, is the fact that the DCNS leadership is expected to meet with MDL top brass this week in Mumbai and present their own demand for additional technical assistance fee.

The developments come at a time when India's submarine fleet is expected to dwindle to just seven or so in two years time. Presently, India operates 10 ageing Russian Kilo class and four German HDW submarines. Indian Navy also has a Russian nuclear submarine INS Chakra on lease.

The Scorpene project, among the biggest defence deals signed by India till now, was concluded in October 2005. Over the years, the project has run into several delays. Originally, the first submarine was to be delivered in 2012. However, because of the complications and two-year delay in concluding contracts related to material to be procured by MDL, the project got delayed by three years.

Delivery by end-2016

Hulls for all six submarines, made of steel supplied by French division of ArcelorMittal, are ready in Mumbai, and the outfitting of equipment and systems is underway. With the Spanish consultants quitting, work on the part of the hull that they were responsible for could be delayed.

According to the new estimates, the first submarine will be ready for commissioning by end of 2016. And then, a new submarine could be ready for induction every 9-12 months.

According to the present projections, the last two submarines would have air independent propulsion systems (AIP) that would help the submarine stay underway water for one to three extra weeks. Without AIP, a Scorpene submarine can stay underwater continuously for five to six days. DRDO is presently developing an indigenous AIP, with assistance from DCNS. Initial assessments about the indigenous AIP system is said to be very good though with only about two weeks of endurance.

source: TOI

 

[sayareakd]

^^^

Andrew Pereira, TNN Apr 14, 2013, 02.29AM IST

After hitting rough waters for several years with bribery allegations, the first of the six Scorpene submarines, ordered by the Indian Navy as part of technology transfer from France, is to be delivered in 2014, French ambassador Francois Richier said on Saturday. The rest five submarines are to be delivered every year.

"It is a full transfer of technology, something we don't do with everybody. Defence component of India-French relations is very important to us," said Richier.

First Scorpene submarine to be delivered in 2014, France says - Times Of India

bold part is most important................. :thumb:

even if delay we dont care as long as we are getting TOT....

 

[bhramos]

Pipavav Defence in talks with France's DCNS for tie-up - Livemint

 

[average american]

Scorpene's Sting: Malaysia's Bribery & Murder Scandal
Mar 20, 2013 12:58 UTC by Defense Industry Daily staff

March 18/13: Suicide? French lawyer Olivier Metzner, who had acted for DCNS in the French court inquiry, is found dead yesterday in "an apparent suicide." His body was found floating off in the waters off an island he owned in Brittany's Bay of Morbihan, and he had left behind a note. The autopsy results have yet to be announced.

Mr. Metzner has represented his share of major criminal figures over the years. If there are are questions concerning the nature of his death, the list of suspects would reach far beyond Malaysia. AFP | Le Parisien [in French] | Malaysia Insider | UK's Daily Mail .
The Franco-Spanish Scorpene diesel-electric attack submarine competes on the global market against an array of competitors, especially ThyssenKrupp HDW's U209/212/214 family. In June 2002, the Malaysian government signed a EUR 1 billion contract with Armaris (now DCNS) and Spanish naval shipbuilder Izar (now Navantia) for 2 SSK Scorpenes and associated support and training. Both submarines have been delivered to Malaysia, though there have been some technical problems . Which pale in comparison to the deal's other problems.

Within Malaysia, the sale has been compromised by an ongoing trial and set of legal actions around the public kidnapping and private execution of Mongolian modeling student, translator, and paramour Altantuya Shaariibuu. Full and impartial accountability for public figures is not a prominent feature of Malaysian justice, but French Journalist Arnaud Dubus added to the pressure with a March 5/09 report in France's Liberation, "Un cadavre très dérangeant: L'étrange affaire du meurtre d'une interprète mongole qui gène le pouvoir en Malaisie" (Page 30-31). It named very prominent names, offered details, and revealed the contents of documents that Malaysian courts had refused to admit. A subsequent bribery investigation by French authorities has led to the emergence of even more documents, and the scandal is becoming a significant presence in Malaysian politics.

Altantuya Shaariibuu's murder case took a dramatic turn when the victim was closely connected to EUR 114 million in "commission" payments to Perimekar, a firm owned by a close associate of Malaysia's current Defence Minister and impending Prime Minister. The monies were paid by Armaris (now DCNS) for "support and coordination services," a term that may bring to mind the murder of Taiwanese Captain Yin Ching-feng in connection with a bribery scandal involving Taiwan's DCNS frigates.

If Liberation's documents are true, Altantuya was murdered on the orders of Abdul Razak Baginda. Baginda is a close associate of Najib Razak, who was Malaysia's Deputy PM and Minister of Defence, and now Prime Minister. Baginda has been acquitted in a Malaysian court, but Razak himself has been implicated in the associated bribery deal, and Dubus' report includes details of text messages Baginda was reportedly sent by Razak, which strongly imply efforts by Razak to cover up the case and interfere with police investigations.

The motive for Altantuya's death was reportedly twofold: EUR 500,000 she wished to claim as her share of the "commission" for the submarines, and the public embarrassment caused to Baginda's marriage after his paramour tried to collect. The kidnapping was carried out by by agents of the Malaysian Special Branch police, in broad daylight, in front of Baginda's house, with witnesses present. Malaysian sources have not published full details, but media organizations outside of Malaysia have.

As is usually true in these operations, it's the small details that matter. The entire wet operation came undone over the non-payment of Altantuya Shaariibuu's cab fare. The taxi driver hired by Altantuya for the day did not appreciate that his passenger was kidnapped before his eyes, without payment for the fare. He took note of the registration plate of the kidnapper's car – and filed a complaint at the local police station. This established that the kidnappers' car was a government vehicle, and fingered its owners.

Somewhere, a cadre of retired Bulgarian KDS professionals are shaking their heads, and wondering what's wrong with the kids today.

kind of weird ,,, from the Defense Industry Daily

 

[bhramos]

India's Scorpene subs facing more delays

 

[LTE-TDD]

----------------------- Infraction handed ----------------------------

Delay? that is not news. India style. In India if Something is on time, then that will be a news.