Improving Effectiveness of the Indian Army

ArgonPrime

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shuvo@y2k10

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VT-4 MBT is mainly for the export market developed by Norinco. Earlier it was called MBT3000. It has a real chance to end up in the neighbourhood of India with potential customers being Pakistan, Bangladesh and China.The performance of VT-4 MBT if compared to Indian standards, is between T-72 CIA and T-90S Bhisma. It is inferior to Type -99M in all aspects. The base armour is thin compared to Type 99 and it sports similar wedge shaped era blocks on the turret front and has side protection from ERA.
 

ArgonPrime

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VT-4 MBT is mainly for the export market developed by Norinco. Earlier it was called MBT3000. It has a real chance to end up in the neighbourhood of India with potential customers being Pakistan, Bangladesh and China.The performance of VT-4 MBT if compared to Indian standards, is between T-72 CIA and T-90S Bhisma. It is inferior to Type -99M in all aspects. The base armour is thin compared to Type 99 and it sports similar wedge shaped era blocks on the turret front and has side protection from ERA.
Well, at least the turret doesn't have any obvious weak spots (even though the base armor itself is rather thin by today's standards), wish could say the same about our Arjun.
 

ezsasa

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Which rock did you come out of?

Army blames the political leadership because without orders the Army cannot even point a gun at Pakistan. Surgical Strikes, Balakot, Artillery Strikes all options existed for years but could be done only when the govt. ordered.

Blame the govt. - they are the ones who are not letting the Army hit Pakistan
Ex-Army jernails who keep complaining about lack of political-will can't think beyond military tactics, military tactics is part of the solution not the entire solution. The fact some of these chaps are complaining means they are not on need to know basis.

i don't think if they think of the problem statement in it's entirety, they will be complaining about things like political will.

saying so because i haven't once heard a discussion where pak problem is discussed in it's entirety. it's always bits and pieces but never all at once. by "all" i mean diplomatic, strategic, military, economic & political terms.
 
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ezsasa

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You mean "Saboot Lao" and "Gali Ka Gunda" type of debate ???
You conduct any debate and our politics will pull it down to their level.
When you do not understand a thing then confuse, create chaos, change the subject, take discussion somewhere else, falsehood, bring it down to personal attacks, outshout the other, muffle the voice of the other,,,etc are age-old, well tested and regular tactics used by Indian politicians and their paid spokesperson.

How can a healthy debate be conducted when someone deliberately calls a Major Generals as Major Sahba such in TV debate...... :pound:
You are confusing TV debate with a proper debate.
 

Bhadra

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You are confusing TV debate with a proper debate.
Which proper debate. You mean the likes of JNU, Jadavpur University, or the ones at JLF where some leftist Catarinas are amassed outside to shout slogans.

We are a country where military science and strategic affairs have never been taught even at academic institutions in spite of the country and society being subjected to various forms of warfare, attacks, and assaults. At Independence and even subsequently, not even a single politician of any stature had been near a gun or uniform. The British did not allow Indians to be commissioned into Indian Forces till about 1935 and when they did it - it was far logistics and Services,

Educations imparted by the Military Education / Training institution are not given academic status/recognition. MoD is run by Babus expert in Petroleum and another one in fertilizers.

Tell me where, how, and in what manner to conduct a public debate on the issue of strategic national affairs? It should not be done in the partisan manners of Sekhar Ghupta or Burqa Dutta...... Even older names like Inder Malhotra, Girilal Jain, Kuldeep Nair, MJ Akbar and others have only played roles of Army baiters...

Within this forum itself, there is no dearth of conscious and deliberate baiters.
 

Bhadra

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Ex-Army jernails who keep complaining about lack of political-will can't think beyond military tactics
Are they supposed to or mandated to go beyond. Does an environment exist for them to go beyond matters military?
Look at your neighbourhood and you would know that when they all controlling the affairs they can make you dance like a mad dogs.

Your entire politicians and Babu establishment dances to the tunes of Pakistan, Naples, Bhutanese, Bangladeshi, Myanmar and PLA Generals. Indian generals can be a little better I assure you.

military tactics is part of the solution not the entire solution. The fact some of these chaps are complaining means they are not on need to know basis.
Oh, did they ever fail in that sphere? Why put the blame where it is not due.

i don't think if they think of the problem statement in it's entirety, they will be complaining about things like political will.
Who is responsible to look at the problem in its entirety? Only those who are in know of complete things. Are the brass part of CCS, CCPA, Finance ministry, MoD, MHA, MEA, NIA, NSS etc ? Then how would they be in complete know of things.

Is Genral Bajwa in complete know of things ? That is the answer....

saying so because i haven't once heard a discussion where pak problem is discussed in it's entirety. it's always bits and pieces but never all at once. by "all" i mean diplomatic, strategic, military, economic & political terms.
Your conclusion is not well-founded and lacks from informational deficiencies.
 

ezsasa

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Are they supposed to or mandated to go beyond. Does an environment exist for them to go beyond matters military?
Look at your neighbourhood and you would know that when they all controlling the affairs they can make you dance like a mad dogs.

Your entire politicians and Babu establishment dances to the tunes of Pakistan, Naples, Bhutanese, Bangladeshi, Myanmar and PLA Generals. Indian generals can be a little better I assure you.



Oh, did they ever fail in that sphere? Why put the blame where it is not due.


Who is responsible to look at the problem in its entirety? Only those who are in know of complete things. Are the brass part of CCS, CCPA, Finance ministry, MoD, MHA, MEA, NIA, NSS etc ? Then how would they be in complete know of things.

Is Genral Bajwa in complete know of things ? That is the answer....



Your conclusion is not well-founded and lacks from informational deficiencies.
i am not going into point by point reply.
as before your assumptions about by intent is wrong, i don't represent any one.

Nothing stops ex-jernails from exploring other variables of india-pak confrontation beyond military angle.
Nothing stops ex-jernails from arriving at an hypothesis with available publicly available information.

Keep in mind i am not talking about all veterans, most of them are aware of the ground reality, i am talking about the very few who keep floating this "lack of political will theory" from time to time.
 

Aniruddha Mulay

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1000 Quad NVGs can be bought for a price of 1 T 90 remember that.



This ain't no Gucci gear, this is a necessity.
Anyone knows the status of these Quad Tube NVG which Tonbo showcased at Defence Expo 2020, is the SF, NSG conducting it's trials??
 

Suryavanshi

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Anyone knows the status of these Quad Tube NVG which Tonbo showcased at Defence Expo 2020, is the SF, NSG conducting it's trials??
Indian Amry won't conduct tests until desi NVGs can look under Imran Begum's Slawar from LOC.
They won't Induct SSS sniper until it can blow up Mars or at least moon.

Foot soldiers bhad me jaye genrail ji ka Daru Sutta chalta rahna chaiye.

Wonder why Russian Procurement don't take this much time.
 

arkos

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They won't Induct SSS sniper until it can blow up Mars or at least moon.
How do you know that sniper is good ? Have you fired it yourself ? What tests has it passed till now ? Do you know how well it does in different wheather conditions ? Or is it that it looks good and fancy so it must be good ?
 

Suryavanshi

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How do you know that sniper is good ? Have you fired it yourself ? What tests has it passed till now ? Do you know how well it does in different wheather conditions ? Or is it that it looks good and fancy so it must be good ?
I don't know if it is good but I don't know if its bad either. How can we even say that OFB rifles are good until tests are carried out.
Indian Army doesn't publish data for the test and Trails carried out on weapons during induction.
Anyways NSG is carrying out test for Sniper if its good we will know soon.
As for looks yes the features provided on the rifle is better than anything OFB has ever produced. Now If the CEO makes tall claims about the rifle than IA must do us the courtesy of testing it out.
 

Aniruddha Mulay

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Indian Amry won't conduct tests until desi NVGs can look under Imran Begum's Slawar from LOC.
They won't Induct SSS sniper until it can blow up Mars or at least moon.

Foot soldiers bhad me jaye genrail ji ka Daru Sutta chalta rahna chaiye.

Wonder why Russian Procurement don't take this much time.
The Russians have realised how important foot soilders are.
Their army is nowhere comparable in strength to their Soviet Era days.
They had such a large army back in the Cold War that they couldn't care less about foot soilders.
The Russians now give more importance to quality rather than quantity.
 

JBH22

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The Russians have realised how important foot soilders are.
Their army is nowhere comparable in strength to their Soviet Era days.
They had such a large army back in the Cold War that they couldn't care less about foot soilders.
The Russians now give more importance to quality rather than quantity.
Georgian war exposed the cold war relic doctrine.
They are now moving to professional army taking into consideration demographic constraints. But with a similar budget they modernised their force since 2008. The Russian army has come a long way.
India with similar budget is lagging far behind either due to incompetence, corruption or sheer inertia.
At this rate maybe we could get Gerasimov to give some consultancy services on how to transform the Indian forces
 

XR SAM

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Indian Amry won't conduct tests until desi NVGs can look under Imran Begum's Slawar from LOC.
They won't Induct SSS sniper until it can blow up Mars or at least moon.

Foot soldiers bhad me jaye genrail ji ka Daru Sutta chalta rahna chaiye.

Wonder why Russian Procurement don't take this much time.
Absolutely. The entire top brass is full of Corrupts. After all we are Indians. Corruption is our birth right after grabbing power. Its shame that having COmpanies like Tonbo @ our doorsteps, our Soldiers are operating without 'sufficient NVGs and thermal Imagers. SSS sniper trial hasn't been started yet. Even it starts,they will constantly harass them by changing requirements constantly. They will ultimately reject them and buy phoren snipers. Atags, Guided Pinaka trials going on since ages..They are planning to order Athos from Israel despite Atags getting success in trials. The MoD babus knows jackshit about defense. They cant even differentiate between Tejas & JF 17. They take decisions by feedback of Army. So its not that only they are responsible for shabby procurements. Conduct never ending trials, change requirements, ultimately reject them and go for phoren option. This is playing years after years. No one to question them. Even someone raises legitimate questions they are told Ohh you know better than Army whats good for them, you are keyboard warrior and what not.
 

XR SAM

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Anyone knows the status of these Quad Tube NVG which Tonbo showcased at Defence Expo 2020, is the SF, NSG conducting it's trials??
Maybe they will conduct trials after getting initial kickback, and order them after getting rest of the amount. Not sure.
 

Assassin 2.0

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Absolutely. The entire top brass is full of Corrupts. After all we are Indians. Corruption is our birth right after grabbing power. Its shame that having COmpanies like Tonbo @ our doorsteps, our Soldiers are operating without 'sufficient NVGs and thermal Imagers. SSS sniper trial hasn't been started yet. Even it starts,they will constantly harass them by changing requirements constantly. They will ultimately reject them and buy phoren snipers. Atags, Guided Pinaka trials going on since ages..They are planning to order Athos from Israel despite Atags getting success in trials. The MoD babus knows jackshit about defense. They cant even differentiate between Tejas & JF 17. They take decisions by feedback of Army. So its not that only they are responsible for shabby procurements. Conduct never ending trials, change requirements, ultimately reject them and go for phoren option. This is playing years after years. No one to question them. Even someone raises legitimate questions they are told Ohh you know better than Army whats good for them, you are keyboard warrior and what not.
PMO office and cabinet decides the Mood of armed forces.
Manohar parrikar forced IAF to induct tejas now they more than happy with that jet and current chief is ex tejas pilot.
Under make in india private new rising companies like tonbo MKU and others are making tons of BJPS and helmets sights are ordered by army . Many of the tejas key components are getting build by alpha defence and other private firms. L&T is also getting orders. SSS defence rifle is under trials you can check the video and the thread.

In past PMO Italian party were to import friendly because of that whole system was corrupt.
 

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