If India has to go for a two fronts war against China and Pakistan...

S

SammyCheung

Guest
In the first hours of a conflict, Chinese SRBMs would target Indian airbases in the theater. The current generation of DF-11 (unlike the SRBMs used by poor countries) is based on 80's USA Pershing II technology. It has separate RV and has a far more energetic motor than poor country's SRBMs

The DongFeng 15 can carry a single nuclear warhead, though the missile was designed mainly for the use in a conventional war. It has a range of warhead types including high-explosive, high-explosive incendiary, and armour-piercing cluster. Other warhead types under development include mine-laying, electromagnetic shockwave, and low-yield nuclear deep-penetration. With a terminal velocity of over Mach 6, the missile is difficult to intercept with any existing missile defence technology.
DongFeng 15 (CSS-6, M-9) Short-Range Ballistic Missile - SinoDefence.com


India simply doesn't have that many fighters in the theater. The MKI deployment there had to be decreased because the bases are inadequate. India has zero hardened airbases in the theater. An SRBM barrage can easily destroy 80% of Indian fighters on the ground, and of course runways.


Next, squadrons of H-6Ks will launch hundreds of cruise missiles (6 missiles each bomber), which have a range of about 1,500 km. The cruise missiles will fly very low and use the features of the landscape like Himalaya mountains. They will target and destroy any fixed Indian radar, SAM site, communication node, military headquarters. If our satellites find mobile SAM sites we'll destroy them too.

A total of 6 large long-range cruise missles may be carried, which might be the air-launched version of CJ series curise missile (range 1,500km, similar to Russian Kh-55). The latest images suggested it can also carry a mix of different types of missles, including a smaller YJ-83K type ASM.
Chinese Military Aviation

It is understood that the satellite was actually a new-generation digital imaging reconnaissance satellite known as JianBing 6 in its military designation. It replaced the older FSW-4 film return type reconnaissance satellites to provide imagery intelligence capability for both military and civil users, with an estimated ground resolution of 0.6~1 metre. A second satellite Yaogan Weixing 4 (RSS-4/Jianbing 8) was launched from Jiuquan on 1 December 2008.
YaoGan Weixing / Remote Sensing Satellites (RSS) - SinoDefence.com


The above should be done within one or two days of a conflict. Next, China will generate hundreds of sorties per day from airbases in Tibet with J-10A, J-10B, J-11A and J-11B to maintain air superiority over the theater.

Next, China will begin dropping ground forces using its medium and heavy transports. This will bypass any Indian army positions and perhaps concentrate on narrow and strategic paths on land.

Currently 603 Institute and XAC are developing an advanced 4-engine large transport (Y-13?) which is smaller than American C-17 and based upon some IL-76MD technology. Its max payload was expected to be around 50t. The prototypes and the initial batch may be powered by Russian D-30KP-2/WS-18 turbofans, later by the modified WS-10. A full-scale metal model (head section) was constructed by 2008 and the first flight is projected in 2012. The next generation of medium transport aircraft was also rumored to be under development at XAC/603 Institute, powered by two WS-10 turbofans.
Chinese Military Aviation


The army will be air dropped with the Type 99G tank.

A photo released by the Chinese official Xinhua News Agency in February 2008 revealed an improved variant of the ZTZ99 that features newly designed observation and active protection system (APS). The commander viewer of the new tank appears to be slightly larger than that of the basic variant ZTZ99, suggesting a possible independent commander thermal imaging viewer. The electro-optical countermeasures device on the original ZTZ99 has been replaced by a new design being placed at a higher position. The pole laser warning receiver on the basic variant ZTZ99 is also missing and possibly replaced by the small box-shape installed by the commander hatch.
ZTZ99 (Type 99) Main Battle Tank - SinoDefence.com


The army will be supported by the Z-10 attack helicopter and precision guided munitions from J-10B, J-11A and J-11B.

The Z-10 is thought to be in the same class as the Agusta A-129, South African Rooivalk, and German Tiger. Its primary mission is anti-armour and battlefield interdiction, with a secondary capability for air-to-air combat. The helicopter first flew on 29 April 2003. A small number of prototypes have been undergoing test and evaluation.
Zhi-10 Attack Helicopter - SinoDefence.com
 

Yusuf

GUARDIAN
Super Mod
Joined
Mar 24, 2009
Messages
24,322
Likes
11,608
Country flag
Sammy not easy as you think. Any mobilization of ballistic missiles will be picked up if not by Indian sats, the US sat and that will be conveyed to India. Atvthwt stage itself the US can prevent a launch.
If china does launch, India can think it's a nuke strike and retaliate with nukes immediately.

You have no idea of the terrain there. Indian forces specialize in mountain warfare. Even the US forces vome to learn about it. So don't live in any illusion.
 

prahladh

Respected Member
Regular Member
Joined
Apr 20, 2009
Messages
864
Likes
146
you are talking as if our SAM sit ducks waiting for the missiles to come and hit us. What is the barrage u talk about. how many missiles are we talking about here.
 

Ray

The Chairman
Professional
Joined
Apr 17, 2009
Messages
43,133
Likes
23,719
Sir i have a doubt. In the event of war, Is there possibility of using large number of tanks in Indo-China border. is the terrain suitable for tank battles, armored units punching through enemy lines, attacking rears, sorrounding them etc.

I know that Sikkim and few other areas have such terrain but can tanks move in as freely as they can do in plains and do same strategy and tactics apply in such terrain too?

also when we look at India map. that narrow piece of land or also called as Chickens neck, between China & bangladesh, that connects north east India to rest of the country. Is that really vunerable. Is there a possibility of north east getting cut off during war if enemy mounted an invasion there?
Sikkim does not permit tanks except in certain circumstances which I will not discuss.

Maps are not a true representation of the actual ground. They don't indicate areas which are boulder strewn where mechanised eqpt cant operate at will!

What you are indicating as "Chickens neck" or what the army calls Siliguri Corridor, it is well taken care of.

To cut off this corridor, the Chinese will have to cater for occupying the part of Bhutan and that is a tough call since we can cut them off elsewhere and they will be up a shi* creek!

Fun and games!
 

Sabir

DFI TEAM
Senior Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2009
Messages
2,116
Likes
786
In the first hours of a conflict, Chinese SRBMs would target Indian airbases in the theater. The current generation of DF-11 (unlike the SRBMs used by poor countries) is based on 80's USA Pershing II technology. It has separate RV and has a far more energetic motor than poor country's SRBMs



DongFeng 15 (CSS-6, M-9) Short-Range Ballistic Missile - SinoDefence.com


India simply doesn't have that many fighters in the theater. The MKI deployment there had to be decreased because the bases are inadequate. India has zero hardened airbases in the theater. An SRBM barrage can easily destroy 80% of Indian fighters on the ground, and of course runways.


Next, squadrons of H-6Ks will launch hundreds of cruise missiles (6 missiles each bomber), which have a range of about 1,500 km. The cruise missiles will fly very low and use the features of the landscape like Himalaya mountains. They will target and destroy any fixed Indian radar, SAM site, communication node, military headquarters. If our satellites find mobile SAM sites we'll destroy them too.



Chinese Military Aviation



YaoGan Weixing / Remote Sensing Satellites (RSS) - SinoDefence.com


The above should be done within one or two days of a conflict. Next, China will generate hundreds of sorties per day from airbases in Tibet with J-10A, J-10B, J-11A and J-11B to maintain air superiority over the theater.

Next, China will begin dropping ground forces using its medium and heavy transports. This will bypass any Indian army positions and perhaps concentrate on narrow and strategic paths on land.



Chinese Military Aviation


The army will be air dropped with the Type 99G tank.



ZTZ99 (Type 99) Main Battle Tank - SinoDefence.com


The army will be supported by the Z-10 attack helicopter and precision guided munitions from J-10B, J-11A and J-11B.



Zhi-10 Attack Helicopter - SinoDefence.com
Does Chaina have enough air bases in Tibet to operate good number of sorties in the theater. Please check. There are more Indian bases than Chinese from where Air force can operate. atleast today.And air bases in tibet are also not out of the reach of India. If China attempt to strike from the bases in the depth of its territory it will be tracked by advanced Radar system and India will have ample time to be prepared for such attack. In a defencive mode you cant underestimate IAF's streangth. PLAAF will have to counter SUKHOI-30 MKI, winner of MRCA(may be Typhoon), LCA and may be some Sukhoi-FGFA.
Dont forget It will be 2020. China has hardly anymore to add in its missile arsenal from now. on the other hand India's arsenal certainly will not be the same as it is today.Missiles will be exchanged heavily by both sides, but it cant decide who is the winner. India has started investing heavily in air -defence sysem (having Israil and USA as partners).So it will not be cake walk for PLAAF.trying sending a large fleet of aircrafts will be suisidal.
Troops on both sides will get good air coverage and none of them will be able to bring their heavy guns. whoever tries to be agressive will be doomed.
Either the war will end in a stalemate (if nuclear weapons are not used) or both civiliztions will be back to 1950 level (or worse than that due to nuclear attacks). but no winner of conflict.
 

Ray

The Chairman
Professional
Joined
Apr 17, 2009
Messages
43,133
Likes
23,719
I enjoy day dreams.

The Chinese seems to have Afghanistan's best!
 

ajay_ijn

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 27, 2009
Messages
422
Likes
28
Sikkim does not permit tanks except in certain circumstances which I will not discuss.

Maps are not a true representation of the actual ground. They don't indicate areas which are boulder strewn where mechanised eqpt cant operate at will!

What you are indicating as "Chickens neck" or what the army calls Siliguri Corridor, it is well taken care of.

To cut off this corridor, the Chinese will have to cater for occupying the part of Bhutan and that is a tough call since we can cut them off elsewhere and they will be up a shi* creek!

Fun and games!
its great to know that Army prepared for all kinds of scenarios. but do they prepare battle plans considering Air force support or they consider that Indias leaders will delay or may not approve air force in some situations.

with newer weapons like cruise missiles, longer range MBRLs, and other things like capability to fighting at night, better command & control system with computers etc will all this change the plans considerably?
 

Yusuf

GUARDIAN
Super Mod
Joined
Mar 24, 2009
Messages
24,322
Likes
11,608
Country flag
As Kargil showed, AF will be called in quickly. Wargames will obviously be held keeping in mind the latest aqcuisition of weapons.
 

NSG_Blackcats

Member of The Month OCTOBER 2009
Senior Member
Joined
Jul 23, 2009
Messages
3,489
Likes
1,555
If we have to fought a full fledged war with both China and Pakistan there is no chance of India coming out as a winner. So our aim must be to put maximum damage on China and destroy Pakistan completely. So let’s see how India can damage both China and Pakistan.

Here we are assuming the war going to happen in 2020.

Indian’s Agni missiles (1500km, 2500km, 3500km, and 5000km) will be fully operational by 2020. So India need to attack Beijing, Shanghais and other big Chinese cities with Agni missiles (may be nuclear). By 2020 we might also have an ICBM with 8000km range.

For Pakistan we have Agni-1 with 750 km range, Prithvi, Shaurya, Brahmos. Just fired 100 missliles in the first 2/3 hours of the war. Pakistan will be history.

In today’s world with Ballistic missile and cruise missile the role of fighter Jets come later.
 

Yusuf

GUARDIAN
Super Mod
Joined
Mar 24, 2009
Messages
24,322
Likes
11,608
Country flag
Wrong blackcat. Any missile flying from either side will be considered to be nuke tipped and the other side will launch as well. MAD follows. No missiles will be fired. It will be a division level operation.
 
S

SammyCheung

Guest
you are talking as if our SAM sit ducks waiting for the missiles to come and hit us. What is the barrage u talk about. how many missiles are we talking about here.
Check the link I posted, China has more than a thousand SRBMs. I think less than 200 of DF-11B and DF-11C would be enough.

You're right, India's best hope is to deploy a lot of S-300 series in the theater. They would be hard to find and destroy because they are mobile. But China is already developing SEAD (suppress enemy air defense) tactics and equipment.

For example, we have a version of the JH-7 armed with electronic warfare pod and high speed anti-radiation missiles (HARM). China also operates S-300 series, so it knows its strengths and weaknesses.

A datalink pod (Russian AKR-8 copy) carried underneath the engine intake will provide enemy radar emission parameters to the Kh-31P ARM. Similarly a laser designation pod (K/JDC01?) can be carried to paint targets for the LGBs. 4 prototypes were built (#811-814?), with the first JH-7A prototype taking off on July 1, 2002.
Chinese Military Aviation
 

prahladh

Respected Member
Regular Member
Joined
Apr 20, 2009
Messages
864
Likes
146
As written by other members BM would trigger nuke. are you sure about this.
 
S

SammyCheung

Guest
As written by other members BM would trigger nuke. are you sure about this.
I do not believe nukes with be involved. I preferred not to discuss nukes just to keep on topic. China has committed not to use nukes first. I also don't think India will use nukes. I think it would be a tragedy for all mankind if India and China had to nuke each other.

Still, China has DF-31A missiles, which have over 10,000 km range, and a 1 megaton warhead. In contrast, India Army is still testing Agni-II and India has not physically tested a nuclear warhead with more than 15 kT yield.

India has zero to gain from escalation, so no nukes will be involved.
 

prahladh

Respected Member
Regular Member
Joined
Apr 20, 2009
Messages
864
Likes
146
How would anyone know if BM (not cruise) are carrying nuke or conv warhead. Is there such tech.
 

Adux

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 24, 2009
Messages
4,021
Likes
1,706
Nuke'em down, Give them hell. Be prepared for it, Be ready for it, If the time comes do it!
 

Ray

The Chairman
Professional
Joined
Apr 17, 2009
Messages
43,133
Likes
23,719
If we have to fought a full fledged war with both China and Pakistan there is no chance of India coming out as a winner. So our aim must be to put maximum damage on China and destroy Pakistan completely. So let’s see how India can damage both China and Pakistan.

Here we are assuming the war going to happen in 2020.

Indian’s Agni missiles (1500km, 2500km, 3500km, and 5000km) will be fully operational by 2020. So India need to attack Beijing, Shanghais and other big Chinese cities with Agni missiles (may be nuclear). By 2020 we might also have an ICBM with 8000km range.

For Pakistan we have Agni-1 with 750 km range, Prithvi, Shaurya, Brahmos. Just fired 100 missliles in the first 2/3 hours of the war. Pakistan will be history.

In today’s world with Ballistic missile and cruise missile the role of fighter Jets come later.
May I assure you that if India has to fight a two front war, we are quite capable!
 

1.44

Member of The Month SEPTEMBER 2009
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 8, 2009
Messages
4,359
Likes
23
Will be hard for any conflict between India and China to be anything more than a border war,neither nation will have anything to gain from a escalation of hostilities.Possible cease fire declaration if the aggressor nation achieves objectives or the defender nation successfully thwarts any military gains.
Just my speculation.
I'll take Ray sir's word on India's preperadeness in fighting a two-front war.Hopefully the Indian military will make full use of all it's assets to gain an advantage
 

hit&run

Mod
Joined
May 29, 2009
Messages
8,979
Likes
20,018
Country flag
If there is a war between China and India. I would say that will be enough for Pakistan :) Pakistan I think might not be involved except for providing China alot of Logistic Support e.g. provide them fuel from the middle east, which is the most essential part of the war. 2ndly our ordinance factories will make alot of money by providing ammunition to China.

This war will ruin Indian economy so why should Pakistan be involved.


Other things which I have noticed by the worthy writers is that he is of the view that in case of war Pakistan Airforce, Navy and Army will be easy for India. They are doing nothing to counter Indian threat. "Occupying Sindh and Librating Baluchistan" do you really think it will be easy ????? Especially when there is no sessionist movement in Sindh, Sindh interior and Southern Punjab are highly radicalized with alot of "Allah's " armies :) For your information Sindh has the highest percentage of wahabis in Pakistan. Had this been that easy Indians would have done that in 80s 90s and would not have backed off after the parliament firing and now the Bombay incident. For God sake we flew our vintage aircraft F7 and the next day all threats were over and there was no tension on the border.

3rdly even if Pakistan gets involved in the war meaning US UK and the NATO minus Turkey will be involved in Indian side, meaning a full scale nucelar war. North Korea will side with China and Pakistan meaning Japan and South Korea will be involved too.

My view is that even China India war is impossible. India and China are not stupid to ruin their economies :)
The scenario is, The war is on.

For God sake we flew our vintage aircraft F7 and the next day all threats were over and there was no tension on the border.

That was laughable and awkward, a scared enemy flexing its muscles over its own suburban skies. trying to distract and world attention on poor innocents butchered in mumbai.

India was never ready for war and policy makers were/are finalizing critical upgrades and advances in net total indian arsenal and war doctrines(china and pakistan concentric). secondly the whole world was sympathetic to india and pressure on pakistan was unprecedented. Pakistan is going to suffer mumbai in many more years to come on all fronts without India going on war front.

Pakistan's is relying on their ability to deliver nuclear bomb any where in india.
In that given scenario india will be able to 'inshallah' plug all those delivery erections or at least be able to make nuclear shield to make these threats ineffectual. once that threat is neutralized india will severely demoralize rest of the Pakistani conventional schools of war. just imagine In that time India just has to stop the very first wave of ballistics from either side (which need a great great vigil from Indian side and i hope if threat would be foreseen{ not sudden and during peace time/without warning}) the possibility to destroy those waves will be highly successful.

Importantly if you think those 'Allah armies' will defend pakistan then you are wrong. Don't expect a man without uniform with weapon in hands aware of its minimum powers will go mad against indian army. rather they will wait for destabilized pakistan and retrieving back enemy to run their own rule of law in areas without 'sheriff'. furthermore i think india will not set to govern those areas to avoid any confrontation with civilian population rather will negotiate. Indian interest like any professional army would be to delete all possible defence establishment in Pakistan to a level that they be not able to revive back in near future. india army has no dream to rule pakistan or librate any pakistani state, likewise pakistan's dream to rule all over India and to librate kashmir.

Please remember an innocent civilian dead or alive can win more wars for a nation and can further ensure that the war will not happen again then a mad person without uniform(Allah army) with weapon in hands and alive.
 

Adux

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 24, 2009
Messages
4,021
Likes
1,706
I do not believe nukes with be involved. I preferred not to discuss nukes just to keep on topic. China has committed not to use nukes first. I also don't think India will use nukes. I think it would be a tragedy for all mankind if India and China had to nuke each other.

Still, China has DF-31A missiles, which have over 10,000 km range, and a 1 megaton warhead. In contrast, India Army is still testing Agni-II and India has not physically tested a nuclear warhead with more than 15 kT yield.

India has zero to gain from escalation, so no nukes will be involved.
Indians dont use S-300 first of all, we have our derivaties of Arrow-2 system, The very best. It doesnt matter wether it is 1 megaton or 15 kilo ton, 5 Agni-3 on Beijing will make it a glass bowl.
 

Adux

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 24, 2009
Messages
4,021
Likes
1,706
Those Chinese rustbuckets will be shot down like the Israeli's shot down the Egyptians, The Tech difference between the Indian Airforce and PLAAF is so huge, that it isnt even funny.Not to mention Tibet is not a location which gives advantage to PLAAF but it gives to India. Chinese will be mincemeat, Not to mention Indians will stop Chinese oil supplies.
 

Global Defence

Articles

Top