If India has to go for a two fronts war against China and Pakistan...

badguy2000

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^^ And do you call the recent aggression in diplomacy that your government tried in Arunachal and then moved to Kashmir as "love"? Because then trust me, your definition of love is very different from the entire world. We recognized Tibet out of mutual agreement that you won't meddle in our internal affairs in 2003. But then again your government backtracked in recognizing us as a part of India, placing us still as a separate kingdom.

Should we also do that for Xingjiang and Tibet? We don't need to know the Chinese people because your government's actions are a problem to us. The belligerence is really not appreciable and the onus of peace really rests on you.

Before claiming that China is a friend and not an enemy, please tell this to PLA generals as well because their actions don't exactly constitute the word "friendly".
Whether India acknowledge Tibet or Xinjiang is a part of CHina or not, both regions are part of CHina and controled by CHina. So, Tibet or Xinjiang is not the card of India at all,because India's acknowledgement can not change anything there and Chinese need not appreciate such cheap "aknowledgement" at all.
 

SHASH2K2

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Whether India acknowledge Tibet or Xinjiang is a part of CHina or not, both regions are part of CHina and controled by CHina. So, Tibet or Xinjiang is not the card of India at all,because India's acknowledgement can not change anything there and Chinese need not appreciate such cheap "aknowledgement" at all.
Similarly whether a country named China acknowledges Kashmir and Arunachal pradesh as part of India or not truth is that they are and China can do nothing about it . We donot need cheap and fake chinese acknowledgment .
 

hit&run

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Chinese need not appreciate such cheap "aknowledgement" at all.
The feeling is mutual India on the other hand do not give dame what China think about Kashmir but can use the same Chinese cheap acknowledgement to diplomatically bash China both ways on Tibet and on Kashmir as well. Its worth a try to declare Tibet as a Independent sate under illegal occupation of PLA. This is what China is doing, Please don't cry unfair.

China's proxy has been just recently exposed for its flip flop who is openly advocating Kashmiris to decide but under the table telling USA that the Kashmir is their own. China will share humiliation on every Pakistani flip flop as she is trying to take strong stands for deceptive Pakistan and Kashmir at the cost of India.
 

badguy2000

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Similarly whether a country named China acknowledges Kashmir and Arunachal pradesh as part of India or not truth is that they are and China can do nothing about it . We donot need cheap and fake chinese acknowledgment .
great difference exist BTW Tibet and KA claimed by India.

some parts of KA claimed by India are controled by CHina and Pakistan,while Tibet is completely controled by CHina..

India actually can not affect situation of Tibet ,but CHina can easily affeact situation of KA claimed by India,by building infrastructures there or deployed troops there or supply arms to Pakistan.
 

SHASH2K2

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great difference exist BTW Tibet and KA claimed by India.

some parts of KA claimed by India are controled by CHina and Pakistan,while Tibet is completely controled by CHina..

India actually can not affect situation of Tibet ,but CHina can easily affeact situation of KA claimed by India,by building infrastructures there or deployed troops there or supply arms to Pakistan.
Donot use word CAN when you guys are actually doing it . China is already doing it in Kashmir. so stop pretending to be innocent and accept deeds of your country. You guys are hell bent on destablizing India and are leaving no stone unturned while trying to do so.
 

Vinod2070

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great difference exist BTW Tibet and KA claimed by India.

some parts of KA claimed by India are controled by CHina and Pakistan,while Tibet is completely controled by CHina..

India actually can not affect situation of Tibet ,but CHina can easily affeact situation of KA claimed by India,by building infrastructures there or deployed troops there or supply arms to Pakistan.
Sure about this? Doesn't your government not call Arunachal Pradesh as South Tibet? Is that completely controlled by China?

BTW, you don't even completely controlled Northern Arunachal Pradesh (what you call Tibet). ;)
 

vikramrana_1812

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great difference exist BTW Tibet and KA claimed by India.

some parts of KA claimed by India are controled by CHina and Pakistan,while Tibet is completely controled by CHina..

India actually can not affect situation of Tibet ,but CHina can easily affeact situation of KA claimed by India,by building infrastructures there or deployed troops there or supply arms to Pakistan.

yes this is what u do....dont feel proud abt it....U do all this stuff just to stop India from developing...but that is all your dreams because India 's growth is inevitable and THERE IS NOTHING U CAN DO MUCH ABOUT IT
 

sandeepdg

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India actually can not affect situation of Tibet ,but CHina can easily affeact situation of KA claimed by India,by building infrastructures there or deployed troops there or supply arms to Pakistan.
Well, don't be swayed by that illusion, babe ! The IA and IAF can liquidate every and any offensive threat emanating out of POK at the drop of a hat when push comes to shove !! And by the way, you said we don't know much about our own country, well if you really claim to be so well informed about India, you wouldn't have made that stupid comment saying Kashmir is claimed by India, as the truth is that J&K is an integral part of the union of India and POK is claimed by India as its not a legal part of Pakistan but under forceful occupation of Pakistan and whose population clearly resents this inhuman occupation.
 

hit&run

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@Shash
Donot use word CAN when you guys are actually doing it . China is already doing it in Kashmir. so stop pretending to be innocent and accept deeds of your country. You guys are hell bent on destablizing India and are leaving no stone unturned while trying to do so.
Its blessing in disguise. The Chinese have already sowed the seeds of India's would be military mission to capture POK. In war its all about standing on high moral grounds and just on Geo political landscape.
This is what we have earned so far by showing grace after Bangladesh liberation and by not dealing Pakistani POW. This is what we have done during Kargil by not crossing the LOC. In the game of chess you have to learn how to wait and sacrifice your Pawn at the right time to win.

Every single Chinese expedition in POK will expedite Issue of Kashmir to be resolved in favor of India. It will help self underestimating Indians to flair up again also.

Let them Invest cause they do not know how Pakistan will deal off kashmir with India without their consent and under the pressure of USA. China will think twice before investing in POK or will do after having a military alliance with Pakistan otherwise. Do you think Pakistan will not weigh the repercussions after having a military alliance with China openly.

There will always be a possibility of Chinese Investments in POK to yield in India's favor if Pakistan and India will trade off things to resolve the issue.

Let them needle us cowardly and gain infamy and bet heavily on Pakistan. More they will invest and pledge more they will bully Pakistan and ultimately piss her off. As Pakistan can not change its neighbor India (with massive military build up on IB) who will make sure that Pakistan always at the table of peace talks.

Chinese logistics will be more vulnerable in POK and AP (that is why they abandoned AP in 1962) than placed in Indian territory by India. As far as Tibet is concerned we can use or own territory to deter or attack china without geo political repercussions than placing our assets in disputed territories like thieves not controlled by us.
 
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Illusive

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great difference exist BTW Tibet and KA claimed by India.

some parts of KA claimed by India are controled by CHina and Pakistan,while Tibet is completely controled by CHina..

India actually can not affect situation of Tibet ,but CHina can easily affeact situation of KA claimed by India,by building infrastructures there or deployed troops there or supply arms to Pakistan.
There you said it, thats what your govt. is trying to do, destabilize India. I would like to here the same thing from the Chinese officials since they have always been denying of provoking India. Dude, the world already is getting a wrong impression of China being arronant, once this fact comes in front of the world that China is responsible for destabilizing its neighboring countries, the world will know that China is not worth becoming a world power or a leader and it would recognize you as a threat. So be careful of what you guys say.

You may say us cowards but the world will praise us for not waging war, the world is watching us especially China.
 

ace009

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India vs China/ Pak two front war - my analyses 5 parts

Section 1 will talk about the global and regional strategic scenario and assumptions
Section 2-5 will talk about one front each.
 
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ace009

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India vs China/ Pak two front war - my analyses 5 parts

Section 1. Let's lay down some global/ regional strategic scenarios and assumptions first -
1. In all probabilities it will start on one of two resources, Water (with Pakistan) or Oil (with China). The issue of Kashmir between India and Pak will only be a prop, or the "Aksai Chin/ Arunachal Pradesh" issue between India and China.
2. Here is my analysis on a two front war between India vs Pak/ China -
Some assumptions first -
1. In all probabilities it will start on one of two resources, Water (with Pakistan) or Oil (with China). The likelihood of an India/ China war escalating into a India vs Pak/ China seems more likely than the other way around. Reason, China is too smart to be dragged into a India/ Pak war and the conventional millitary gap between India and Pak will continue to rise, making it difficult for Pak to start a war with India without resorting to Nuclear strike first, causing havoc and enormous millitary damage to India, but not total millitary destruction (larger size and more places to hide Indian forces. However, a nuclear first strike from Pakistan will ensure swift and deadly retaliation from India and a far more devastation to Pakistan (as most of Pakistan is within range of India's missiles).
3. On the other hand, in case an India/ China war starts, Pak will join in to take a bite of India's ass and India will be too busy to deal with China to bring on it's much larger force against Pak forces. This may enable Pak to achieve one of two goals - i) Take over the fertile plains of Indian Punjab and it's water resources, ii) Take over the Kashmir valley.
4. USA will stay "neutral" i.e. it will provide tacit support to India, in terms of technical knowhow and intelligence, but no materials/ weapons etc just to even the field somewhat.
5. Russia will remain completely neutral in this war as they have too much at stake with India (defence and economy - in that order) and China (economy and defence - in that order).
6. India's other neighbors will be divided into three groups - pro-India (Malayasia, Thailand, Singapore), Neutral (Bhutan, Sri-Lanka, Nepal) and Pro-China/ Pak (Burma, Bangladesh). Afghanistan maybe a divided country with tribal support with Pak and their government support with India.
6. E.U. will try to stay neutral, but individual countries may start dealing secretly with combatants on both sides (maybe UK rooting for India and France for China/ Pak).
7. Japan and South Korea will favor India, however, not openly come out in India's defense.
8. The Arab countries may favor Pak, but would not come out openly, unless Israel comes out openly in favor of India.
9. Israel will in all probabilities NOT come out openly in favor of India, but like Japan and South Korea (and USA and UK) will root for India secretly.
10. Finally, the timeline will look more like 2025, when I presume, both India and China will be armed with next generation planes, warships and artillery.

Having said that, let's see how the war unfolds ...
The war again will be waged in four fronts - two land and two sea fronts. Let's call them western (land), south-western (sea), south-eastern (sea) and north-eastern (land). As you can imagine, all four fronts will have aerial battles between the two sides.

I will post Section 2 if anyone is still interested.
 

SHASH2K2

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Section 1. Let's lay down some global/ regional strategic scenarios and assumptions first -
1. In all probabilities it will start on one of two resources, Water (with Pakistan) or Oil (with China). The issue of Kashmir between India and Pak will only be a prop, or the "Aksai Chin/ Arunachal Pradesh" issue between India and China.
2. Here is my analysis on a two front war between India vs Pak/ China -
Some assumptions first -
1. In all probabilities it will start on one of two resources, Water (with Pakistan) or Oil (with China). The likelihood of an India/ China war escalating into a India vs Pak/ China seems more likely than the other way around. Reason, China is too smart to be dragged into a India/ Pak war and the conventional millitary gap between India and Pak will continue to rise, making it difficult for Pak to start a war with India without resorting to Nuclear strike first, causing havoc and enormous millitary damage to India, but not total millitary destruction (larger size and more places to hide Indian forces. However, a nuclear first strike from Pakistan will ensure swift and deadly retaliation from India and a far more devastation to Pakistan (as most of Pakistan is within range of India's missiles).
3. On the other hand, in case an India/ China war starts, Pak will join in to take a bite of India's ass and India will be too busy to deal with China to bring on it's much larger force against Pak forces. This may enable Pak to achieve one of two goals - i) Take over the fertile plains of Indian Punjab and it's water resources, ii) Take over the Kashmir valley.
4. USA will stay "neutral" i.e. it will provide tacit support to India, in terms of technical knowhow and intelligence, but no materials/ weapons etc just to even the field somewhat.
5. Russia will remain completely neutral in this war as they have too much at stake with India (defence and economy - in that order) and China (economy and defence - in that order).
6. India's other neighbors will be divided into three groups - pro-India (Malayasia, Thailand, Singapore), Neutral (Bhutan, Sri-Lanka, Nepal) and Pro-China/ Pak (Burma, Bangladesh). Afghanistan maybe a divided country with tribal support with Pak and their government support with India.
6. E.U. will try to stay neutral, but individual countries may start dealing secretly with combatants on both sides (maybe UK rooting for India and France for China/ Pak).
7. Japan and South Korea will favor India, however, not openly come out in India's defense.
8. The Arab countries may favor Pak, but would not come out openly, unless Israel comes out openly in favor of India.
9. Israel will in all probabilities NOT come out openly in favor of India, but like Japan and South Korea (and USA and UK) will root for India secretly.
10. Finally, the timeline will look more like 2025, when I presume, both India and China will be armed with next generation planes, warships and artillery.

Having said that, let's see how the war unfolds ...
The war again will be waged in four fronts - two land and two sea fronts. Let's call them western (land), south-western (sea), south-eastern (sea) and north-eastern (land). As you can imagine, all four fronts will have aerial battles between the two sides.

I will post Section 2 if anyone is still interested.
so Bottom-line that we may have well wishers but will have to fight war on our own. All allies and friends become useless in adversity.
 

The Messiah

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so Bottom-line that we may have well wishers but will have to fight war on our own. All allies and friends become useless in adversity.
Yes!

We must change our nuke policy. It should be made known that in case of two front war India "might" use the nukes first. Under no circumstances we should concede even 1cm of our land just to look like angels infront of world and be politically correct.

Only allies we have is ourselves and we shouldn't divide ourselves on the basis of colour,caste,religion etc
 
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ace009

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Section 2 -
North-Eastern front (Land and Air-battle)
Remember, this will be a war over oil and maybe other natural resources, so it will be well planned and well co-ordinated. Already China has built highways close to the Indian border of Arunachal Pradesh. They also have built roadways towards (and through) Myanmar - and can launch fast, heavily armored multi-pronged land attacks against India in the north-east. Compared to that, India does not have much logistic mobility in the area and may be forced to play defense heavily.

Land Battles -
PLA Tactics: The Chinese goal would be to cut off Arunachal Pradesh with thrusts from the east (towards Myanmar border) and the west (towards Bhutan border) with armored divisions (tanks like Type 99, Type 96 and 96G) followed by mechanized infantry divisions. If the larger more accessible passes prove to be well defended, the PLA can always airlift or airdrop light mechanized infantry behind enemy defenses and find less accessible passes to move it's heavier armor. Surveillance, satellite mapping and ground intelligence will be essential to PLA for this scenario. Local anti-India secessionist and terrorist groups with links to the Chinese will be an asset for PLA at this point for ground intelligence and guidance. The flanking movements will be followed by artillary barrage and PLAAF bombardment of the remaining IA forces in Arunachal Pradesh. At the same time PLA will be setting up gun-artillery, rocket-artillary and mobile missile pods in the captured areas to thwart any Indian counter offensive to open up access into Arunachal Pradesh. Then a central thrust from near Nyingchi will try to finish off the cut-off remaining forces if they have not surrendered already. The superior armor strength, better logistic and mobilization capabilities will be an important asset for the PLA. The PLA cruise and ballistic missiles (with high explosive conventional warheads) will also be useful in softening up any exposed defensive structure IA has in place. Nuclear war will not be an option to China since conventional war would suffice for their goals and only a Nuclear war will bring over USA to India's side, which China cannot let happen.

IA Tactics: In this scenario, the IA will be hard pressed to counter the flanking Chinese attacks and the mountainous terrain will be more hindrance than help to mount swift defenses. Advance intelligence is essential for the IA to build up forces in sufficient numbers inside Arunachal Pradesh. Also, preparing defenses and artillery positions in the easier access passes will be a safe bet for IA. This will make these passes too risky for PLA and will force them to take slower routes in their flanking movement. This in turn will enable IA (probably with help from paramilitary forces) to bring in supply and reinforcements rapidly into Arunachal Pradesh once reports of the Chinese aggression starts coming in. A new generation of MBT (whether it is the Arjun Mark II or the FMBT) will be of immense value at this point t because the T-90 is no match for the T-99 and the T-96 of PLA. However, in the mountainous regions of Arunachal Pradesh, Tank deployment will be limited and other mobile armored vehicles like NGIFV, ZBD-97 etc will be fielded by the PLA in large numbers. To counter them, IA will need to field BMP-2 and it's more sophisticated derivatives in large numbers. Although the HAL Dhruv is an asset, the new generation light combat helicopter will be essential to counter the armored infantry as well as the combat helicopters of the PLA (CAIC WZ-10). To redress the imbalance in tank power, India's anti-Tank missiles and anti-tank guns will come in handy too - sadly India still does not have a program for any next generation anti-tank infantry weapon (shoulder mounted).

Air Battle:
PLAAF: The PLAAF fighters (J-10, J-11B and J-XX) will provide air support during these flanking maneuvers, and ensure that the IAF does not stop the armored divisions of the PLA from moving in. The PLAAF ground attack aircraft will be used to take out entrenched IA positions and attack IA armor. However, deployment of the top PLAAF fighters will depend upon the strategic importance of tArunachal Pradesh to Chinese expansion plans, because they would not like to lose too many of their top-of the line fighters in the unpredictable / treacherous mountainous regions, where chance SAMs and inferior IAF interceptors (LCA tejas) might bring down an expensive J-11B.
IAF: Although numerically IAF (~100 FGFA, ~250 Su-30MKI, ~200 MRCA, ~250 LCA and maybe some remnants of Mig 29SMT and Mirage-2000-V) will never catch up with the PLAAF (~200 J-XX, ~200 J-11A/B, ~200 Su27/ Su-30MKK, ~300 J-10 and ~200 other 3rd gen fighters like J-8 and J-7), qualitatively the IAF will be more than a match for PLAAF inside Indian territory (FGFA vs J-XX; Su-30 MKI vs J-11A/B; MRCA vs Su-27/ su-30MKK and J-10 vs LCA). IAF will have two roles cut out for them - maintaining air-superiority over Arunachal Pradesh skies to deter the ground attack aircraft of PLAAF and attack the superior armor of the PLA whenever possible. A probable force of 2 squadrons of FGFA, 5 sq of Su-30 MKI, 3-4 sq of MRCA and 5-6 sq of LCA will be needed to counter the PLAAF. If IAF can start flying the MCA by 2025, it will give them the edge in land attack capability.

As you can see from this analysis, PLA is and would stil be superior in both quantity and quality to IA. There is nothing to be ashamed of in this. For the last 60-70 years, China has maintained a large territorial army and for the last 30+ years they have been modernising it too. Given their HUGE size (twice as big as India) it makes a lot of sense. However, PLAAF and IAF are evenly matched in quality and any battle inside India will neutralize any numerical advantage PLAAF holds.

So in the North-Eastern front, PLA and PLAAF might make some advances in Arunachal Pradesh, but they will be repulsed by IA and IAF from closing the "pocket" around Arunachal Pradesh. The war will drag on, extending the PLA supply lines and threaten to cause serious damage to PLAAF, not to mention China's diplomatic status world over as an aggressor. In 4-6 months (assuming a spring/ summer offensive), as the weather changes to the Himalayan winter, the PLA will negotiate a truce, exchange prisoners and pull back to reasonable ground - India may lose a peak or two, but eventually international pressure may force the chinese to give back any land they have captured.

I am working on Section 3 and will post that in 24 hours if people are interested to hear more of my analysis. (I am trying to write a fictional story about an India vs China/ Pak war in 2025, hence all the analysis on my part).
 

Sabir

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I believe China will try to use Pakistan's territory to engage India in different fronts other than Ladakh and AP. Because in the plain they can get full advantage of their numerical superiority. Ladakh and A.P are just too tough terrain. In these two areas your position and strategy is more important than numbers. However I believe in these arena IAF will not only have advantage of better aircrafts but that of number too. Dont be surprize. It does not matter how many fighter planes China have, it is needed to count how many air-bases they can build up in Tibet to launch air-attack to India. 4-5 airbases is not going to serve them any purpose as they can support less number of air-crafts. If they can use Pakistani air-bases along with PAF, it will be a serious problem to India to take such number. So, the first step to win a war is to neutralize Pak bases as soon as possible. Next step is to hold on China in AP and Ladakh without being much aggressive.
 

ace009

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I agree with you, and I will come to that in Section 5. I am trying to do this front by front.
 

ace009

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Section 3:
South-Eastern front (Sea-battle)
When the PLA and PLAAF is pounding away in India's NE, the two navies will face off in the shipping lanes from the Malaya seas, Indian ocean, towards Arabian sea and the Persian gulf (but that part we will discuss in section 4). Again, it is a fair assumption that IN (Indian Navy) is on it's own and PLAN and PN are loosely acting together (i.e. no combined strategy, but tactical cooperation).
Chinese Tactic:
PLAN is numerically superior and are building some advanced craft to make up for their current technological inferiority. PLAN will like to keep alive the flow of their oil from middle east (ME), which comprises about 45% of their oil needs. A large part of their surface crafts will be busy with accompanying their merchant marine to and fro ME.PLAN are busy building their fist (pair of) aircraft carriers and may even be able to refit the ex-soviet carrier Varyag as a third carrier. However, they have very little experience operating an aircraft carrier and will not want to risk these crafts into the Indian ocean at the mercy of the IN. The PLAN carriers will be used around the inner islands to deter any IN foray near Chinese mianland/ offshore assets. The biggest strength of the Chinese navy is their Nuclear submarines. 4-6 attack nuclear subs and about 2-3 ballistic nuclear subs will be in service at any time and will pose the greatest threat to IN. The SSBN's will try to sneak through and attack the Indian mainland, target the IN naval bases, the air-support bases and hit the maintenance docks. Their prime target would be the island bases (Andaman and Car Nicobar) and the docks at Vizag. Using the nuc submarines together with the new corvettes and destroyers planned by the Chinese defense department, a concerted effort by PLAN to push out any IN presence from the Islands might just succeed, thereby ending most of the threat to chinese merchant marines in that region.

Indian Tactic:
On the other hand, India recognizes their advantage in the naval department and is busy expanding IN too. One area in which the IN is ahead of the PLAN (not to mention the PN) is the tactical and strategic ability of having operated every type of naval vessels in the recent past - carriers, nuclear subs, advanced conventional subs and having trained with the best navy's in the world (USN, RN, French Navy etc). The Indian ocean and the Malayan straits will be where much of the action will be decided. IN has built a navy base in the Andaman Islands. They would be expanding another set of Naval bases present in the Car Nicobar Islands and Naval aircraft landing facilities. From these advanced launch position, India can threaten the PLAN merchant marine and even the escorting PLAN surface vessels. With the carriers and VTOL vessels planned to be in service by 2018, India can neutralize any conventional sub/ surface vessel threat from PLAN (or PN). The fleet of older diesel-electric subs in IN fleet will be essential to keep the PN vessels in check - however, some of them can be used to attack the merchant marine vessels from China. The 4-5 attack nuc subs being built for IN will be used to neutralize the PLAN attack nuc subs from Indian ocean - the IN Scorpene subs need to be used to scare away the SSBN of PLAN from coming within striking distance of the Andaman/ Nicobar naval ports. One of the IN fleets can also be sent to threaten any Chinese merchant marine vessels in the Malaya straits with tacit approval from Malayasia and Singapore. Any effort by IN to venture near the inner islands beyond the Malaya straits will be decisively thwarted by PLAN.

The naval battle in the south-eastern front will also come to a stale-mate within 3-4 months - probably after several merchant marine losses and a couple of hits on naval combat vessels from both sides. Overall IN may emerge with marginal advantage (capturing a couple of Chinese merchant marine vessels) providing important negotiating chips to the Indian Govt for a peace treaty with China.
 
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neo29

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Before launching an attack China will try to sabotage India's communications lines using its hackers to cripple computers across the defence network. Even a report few months back says that China will initially rely on information warfare before launching a actual attack.

During 1962 India Army was not much focused in the eastern sector. Its a different today. It wont be easy for the PLA troops just to walk in like 1962 facing an ill equipped army will less numbers and no co-ordination with their commanders.
 

neo29

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As a matter of fact, speaking about 1962 here's what i found ...


 

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