If India has to go for a two fronts war against China and Pakistan...

nimo_cn

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You guys talk like India China conflict will have only Pakistan in the equation. You forget that almost 3 billion people are involved in the war. It is almost like a world war. Half of the world population will be at war at the same time. If ths happens then it will be catastrophic. It is almost like the world is at war.
3 billion people will suffer from such a war, but that does not equal to the world being at war. The war will be confined to being between China and India, because both are not global power yet. It will be catastrophic, but only for Indians and Chinese.

Western powers will be more than happy to see such a war, which saves them a lot of work. They may help India by providing weapons and assistance, they may wish India to win the battle. Nevertheless, we all know in the end whether who wins the battle, both are going to lose, that is what westerners want to see.

So i would rather this will not happen.
 

SATISH

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3 billion people will suffer from such a war, but that does not equal to the world being at war. The war will be confined to being between China and India, because both are not global power yet. It will be catastrophic, but only for Indians and Chinese.

Western powers will be more than happy to see such a war, which saves them a lot of work. They may help India by providing weapons and assistance, they may wish India to win the battle. Nevertheless, we all know in the end whether who wins the battle, both are going to lose, that is what westerners want to see.

So i would rather this will not happen.
There are no victors and losers in war. Everyone loses. But wars must be fought for Mankind to survive.
 

nimo_cn

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There are no victors and losers in war. Everyone loses. But wars must be fought for Mankind to survive.
Please define mankind. If your are refering to the whole human being, it is like a joke. Are we fighting alien who invades earth?

Most war are fought because of greed of human, especially for those who initiate the war.
 
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civfanatic

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I think you need to check out what you have in your inventory for sale first.
Arjun tanks, LCA, Akash SAM, Dhruv helicopters, maybe even BrahMos cruise missile.

All of these toys are superior to what Vietnam has now.


That counts for nothing in a Sino-vs-Indo scenario.
Of course it does. China can't mobilize all its miltary forces towards the India border because it has other fronts to worry about. While China is busy with India, what if Taiwan decides to declare independence or Vietnam decides to reclaim its islands in the South China Sea? What if Russia puts pressure on China to stop its aggression? Will CCP ignore all other fronts just to secure a bunch of rocks from India?
 

SATISH

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Please define mankind. If your are refering to the whole human being, it is like a joke. Are we fighting alien who invades earth?

Most war are fought because of greed of human, especially for those who initiate the war.
Knew you wouldnt understand it...and you didnt. So I dont wanna wate my energy trying to make you understand.
 

SHASH2K2

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Please define mankind. If your are refering to the whole human being, it is like a joke. Are we fighting alien who invades earth?

Most war are fought because of greed of human, especially for those who initiate the war.
Like it was China greed which initiated 1962 war ?
 

nimo_cn

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Arjun tanks, LCA, Akash SAM, Dhruv helicopters, maybe even BrahMos cruise missile.

All of these toys are superior to what Vietnam has now.
Arjun, denied by your own army, your army is inducting T90.
LCA, still in the process of development.
Akash SAM, Vietnam has s-300.
Dhruv helicopters, never heard of, but i believe Vietnam has similar Russia toy.

Of course it does. China can't mobilize all its miltary forces towards the India border because it has other fronts to worry about.
Have you thought about what if China does not need to mobilize all its military forces towards the India border considering China is enjoying some advantage over you.

While China is busy with India, what if Taiwan decides to declare independence
What if Taiwan is happy to see China takes on India given Taiwan also claims South Tibet and they are also Chinese.

or Vietnam decides to reclaim its islands in the South China Sea?
What if china gives up those islands and makes peace with Vietnam? We may lose some islands, do you gain anything from that?

What if Russia puts pressure on China to stop its aggression?
What if Russia just sits tight and watch, or does not put enough pressure on China?

Will CCP ignore all other fronts just to secure a bunch of rocks from India?
What if CCP goes crazy, are you going to cry?
 

nimo_cn

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Like it was China greed which initiated 1962 war ?
I don't want to go there again. After your country declassifies the files with regard to that war, then come to us and discuss who intiated that war.
 

nimo_cn

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Knew you wouldnt understand it...and you didnt. So I dont wanna wate my energy trying to make you understand.
I am sorry if my enligh inability keeps me from comprehending you.
But why not make yourself clear enough for me to understand?
 

civfanatic

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Arjun, denied by your own army, your army is inducting T90.
Indian Army is inducting both T-90 and Arjun.
The most advanced tank in the Vietnamese Army is the T-62, which is 50 yrs old. They badly need a replacement, and Arjun would be a fine one, since it was developed for India's geography and Vietnam and India share similar geography.

LCA, still in the process of development.
Once it is finished, it can be sold to Vietnam as a cheap replacement for their MiG-21s and Su-22s.

Akash SAM, Vietnam has s-300.
S-300 is a long range strategic SAM. Vietnam needs a medium-range tactical SAM for battlefield use, but they lack a modern platform. Akash can fill that gap.

]Dhruv helicopters, never heard of, but i believe Vietnam has similar Russia toy.
You've never heard of Dhruv helicopters? It is India's most successful export item, used by 12 different countries.
Vietnam's Mi-8s are aging and need replacement.

Have you thought about what if China does not need to mobilize all its military forces towards the India border considering China is enjoying some advantage over you.
Unless China mobilizes the majority of their modern military assets towards India, they have no chance of victory. Unless you think that China's MiG-21 copies are better the Su-30MKIs. In terms of modern military equipment, India has the edge. This isn't 1962.

What if Taiwan is happy to see China takes on India given Taiwan also claims South Tibet and they are also Chinese.
They they would be stupid since they have no control over the PRC. Even if PRC conquers the whole world they won't benefit.

What if china gives up those islands and makes peace with Vietnam? We may lose some islands, do you gain anything from that?
The South China Islands contain rich oil deposits. Handing them over means a strategic defeat for China, and a weakened China is better for India.

What if Russia just sits tight and watch, or does not put enough pressure on China?
Neither India nor China knows for sure what Russia will do. But leaving the Sino-Russian border undefended would be a serious gamble for the CCP. If they want to make that gamble it's their loss.

What if CCP goes crazy, are you going to cry?
No, I will laugh when CCP gets a bloody nose just like they did in 1979 when they attacked Vietnam.
 

Iamanidiot

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nimo_cn

PLAN can't enter IOR and attack India thats plain suicide.What we are thinking is cutting your fuel line and choke you .PLAN is nowhere in a position for a slanging match with IN in IOR (with or without USNavy assistance).By the way you and i aren't qualified enough to bash Ray sir.Esp us chairborne generals
 

nimo_cn

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Indian Army is inducting both T-90 and Arjun.
248 Arjun can barely be called an induction in contrast with 1500+ T90.

The most advanced tank in the Vietnamese Army is the T-62, which is 50 yrs old. They badly need a replacement, and Arjun would be a fine one, since it was developed for India's geography and Vietnam and India share similar geography.
Considering your own army is procuring T90, i believe they will choose T90 instead of Arjun if they want to replace these tanks.

Compared with T90, Arjun is cumbersome and expensive, and most importantly insecure.

Once it is finished, it can be sold to Vietnam as a cheap replacement for their MiG-21s and Su-22s.
Meaning it is not finished yet, after it is finished we can discuss the possiblity of selling it to others.

S-300 is a long range strategic SAM. Vietnam needs a medium-range tactical SAM for battlefield use, but they lack a modern platform. Akash can fill that gap.

You've never heard of Dhruv helicopters? It is India's most successful export item, used by 12 different countries.
Vietnam's Mi-8s are aging and need replacement.
I don't want to disparage Indian weapons any more, it is very inhuman to do that. Plus, i don't have much knowledge with respect to Indian defence industry.

But in consideration of the fact that most main battle weapons inducted by Indian military are imported from foreign countres, you really need to do harder to convince others to believe your indigenous weapons are really that advanced.

Unless China mobilizes the majority of their modern military assets towards India, they have no chance of victory. Unless you think that China's MiG-21 copies are better the Su-30MKIs. In terms of modern military equipment, India has the edge. This isn't 1962.
You sound as if China only has MiG copies, but i am not going to controvert that, because i don't want to do another Sino-Indo comparison.

The reason i replied to this thread is to refute Ray's view that it is not going to be a standalone situtaion for India if a Sino-Indo conflict breaks out. I am contending it is very likely to be a standalone situation. I am not talking about who will win if it is a standalone situation, so please hold your horses before you are trying to argue how mighty Indian military is.

They they would be stupid since they have no control over the PRC. Even if PRC conquers the whole world they won't benefit.
OK, i will not refute this one because it seems to be plausible.

Then how about this one, China promises to grant Taiwan independence in exchange for its assistance to fight India? Are you 100% percent Taiwan will turn that down?

The South China Islands contain rich oil deposits. Handing them over means a strategic defeat for China, and a weakened China is better for India.
So what, just because China lost some islands then China is weakened? Is that going to have any impact on a war between China and India?

We are talking about a long term competition between China and India. We are talking about a war which most of the time will not last long.

Neither India nor China knows for sure what Russia will do.
Yes, then why people here are talking so surely this is not a standalone situation.

Are you sure about what other countries will react? Are you really so sure all of them will take India's side?

What if US takes China's side? You will say that is impossible. Oh, really? What if China give US an offer, China fights the war and US reaps the prize? That is a good offer, isn't it? Still so sure US will say no?

But leaving the Sino-Russian border undefended would be a serious gamble for the CCP. If they want to make that gamble it's their loss.
What if we do make that gamble, and Russia realy sits tight and does nothing? Are you going to deny that possibility?

No, I will laugh when CCP gets a bloody nose just like they did in 1979 when they attacked Vietnam.
Well, that depends how good your military is.

To sum up, it is possible India is gonna to fight alone.
 
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nimo_cn

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nimo_cn

PLAN can't enter IOR and attack India thats plain suicide.What we are thinking is cutting your fuel line and choke you .PLAN is nowhere in a position for a slanging match with IN in IOR (with or without USNavy assistance).
That is not what i am contending, i am replying to Ray's assertion that it is not a standalone situation for India.

By the way you and i aren't qualified enough to bash Ray sir.Esp us chairborne generals
I am not bashing him or anyone else, i am not just refuting him. Debate is encouraged in this forum, right?
 

neo29

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@nimo_cn

Induction is induction irrespective of numbers. The reason T-90 was chosen becoz the the army was not happy with arjun performance and allegations of kickbacks in T-90 deal. Nevertheless Arjun though delayed proved its worth in the comparative trials when pitted against T-90. The reason army wants no more arjun is becoz they want a next generation tank that Drdo working on. Similarly they dont want anymore T-90's.

If India and China are at war except pakistan no other country will be there for china. Same case may be for India, though it may get some moral support and weapons supply from US.

India may be importing its hardware but working indigenously too. China may be indigenously making its military hardware but at the cost of reverse engineering and copying.

1962 was different scenario with most of our attention was in pak border and kashmir. No one really bothered about the eastern front and hence no development in any field from roads to basic amenities to soldiers. Nehru was over confident that China will not do anything aggressively and even did not bother to send backup to the troops after his advisors informed him of chinese prepartions.

Indian army equipped with WW2 enfield rifles and 10k soldiers, no basic amenities, no means of communication and co-ordinations, no strong outposts against 60k PLA soldiers with sub machine guns and grenades and completely prepared for battle. Geographically PLA was in a more favorable situation. Any one can do the math on who will win before the war starts. Still the ill equipped India army did giving a challenge to the PLA.

Its true that the foolish Nehru applied the forward policy without preparing for consequences and India and its soldiers paid a price for it.

The scenario is different today. Even PLA knows it. Either side knows that if war happens the result will be inconsequential but the destruction will be vast and hence avoid it.

Actually thanks to the 1962 war that India realized its vulnerability and brought sweeping changes in the Forces.
 

SHASH2K2

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India Digs Under Top of the World to Match Rival


ROHTANG PASS, India — The name of this white-knuckle pass, one of the highest in the world, means "pile of corpses" in the Tibetan language. Every year a few dozen people die trying to cross these spiky Himalayan peaks.

For six months the road is snowbound, putting at the mercy of the elements tens of thousands of Indian troops posted beyond it in this remote but strategically important region along India's long and disputed border with China.

In the past decade, as China has furiously built up its military and civilian infrastructure on its side of the border, the Rohtang Pass on the Indian side has stood as mute testimony to India's inability and unwillingness to master its far-flung and rugged outermost reaches.

But now, India is racing to match its rival for regional and global power, building and bolstering airstrips and army outposts, shoring up neglected roads and — finally, decades after it was first proposed — building a tunnel to bypass the deadly Rohtang Pass.

In June, work started on the ambitious project, which will take five years and require boring five miles through the Pir Panjal range. Several other tunnels, which would allow all-weather access to Ladakh, which abuts the Tibetan Plateau, are also in the works.

"What India is belatedly seeking to do is to improve its defenses by upgrading its logistics," said Brahma Chellaney, an analyst who tracks the India-China relationship at the Center for Policy Research in New Delhi, in an e-mail. "By building new railroads, airports and highways in Tibet, China is now in a position to rapidly move additional forces to the border to potentially strike at India at a time of its choosing."

As a result, he said, "The Sino-Indian border remains more unstable than the Pakistani-Indian frontier."

India and China are hardly enemies, but much of the 2,521-mile border they share is disputed or ill marked. The two countries fought a brief but bloody border war in 1962, and while these days they have, on the surface, a mostly cordial relationship, it is marked by tension over border disputes and the future of Tibet and its leader, the Dalai Lama, who lives in exile in India.

China's push to develop its infrastructure on its side of the border — including an all-weather railway to Tibet that includes the world's highest tunnel, at 16,000 feet — is viewed with considerable suspicion in India.

For much of its history, India has regarded the Himalayas as a form of protection, not a barrier to be overcome, said Rajeswari Rajagopalan, an expert in India-China relations at the Observer Research Foundation in New Delhi.

"The Indian side has been very slow to develop the border areas," Ms. Rajagopalan said. "They believed if you improved the infrastructure it would only allow the Chinese to walk into your territory. This was very foolish and naïve."

Three hundred miles of winding road lead from the town of Manali, through the verdant Kullu Valley, to Ladakh, an alpine desert that abuts the Tibetan plateau.

Tens of thousands of Indian Army troops are stationed among Ladakh's barren peaks, and the region borders several potential trouble spots, including Aksai Chin, a region that India claims as part of its territory but that China administers. North of Ladakh is the Siachen Glacier, a river of barren ice that India and Pakistan have fought over intermittently since the 1980s. Both countries maintain outposts on the glacier, which sits at an altitude of 20,000 feet.

During the summer, thousands of trucks, laden with supplies to last the harsh mountain winters, rumble up the two roads that lead to Ladakh, from Manali and Srinagar, the summer capital of Indian-administered Kashmir.

The road from Ladakh to Srinagar is also closed in the winter, and because of its proximity to the Line of Control that splits Kashmir between India and Pakistan, Indian officials worry that the road can easily be cut, as it was in 1999, when the two countries clashed at Kargil.

Gurmeet Kanwal, a retired brigadier who runs the Center for Land Warfare Studies, a New Delhi research institution, said India could not afford to be cut off from its most vulnerable reaches half of the year.

"As long as we have these territorial disputes you cannot rule out another border conflict," Brigadier Kanwal said. "We would like to make sure that we can deploy our forces in the right quantities in the right places."

The tunnel has been on the drawing board for decades, said P. K. Mahajan, the chief engineer on the $320 million project. He first became involved as a young engineer in 1988, when he helped carry out a feasibility study, five years after the project was first proposed by Indira Gandhi, then the prime minister.

"It is only now that these projects are seeing the light of day," Mr. Mahajan said.

The challenges of building a long tunnel in the rough environment of the Pir Panjal are enormous. The Himalayas are the world's youngest mountain range. They shift and grind, still moving, expanding and shrinking.
That makes life tough for people like Thomas Riedel, a German contractor working at the north end of the tunnel. Because no one is sure what kind of rock will be found inside the mountain, the tunnel will be built using a painstaking method of blasting and digging, rather than the tunnel-boring machines that have revolutionized tunnel construction in recent years.
"Nobody can look inside the mountain," Mr. Riedel said. "That is where we will find problems."

Just weeks into what will be at least five years of digging, the workers encountered their first unexpected obstacle: a foot of snow. In June.

The tunnel will sit beneath more than a mile of snow-covered rock for much of its length. Ventilation will pose a huge problem.

People who live on the other side of the Rohtang Pass say the tunnel will transform their lives.

"For six months, we are prisoners," said Chetan Devi, a schoolteacher who lives in a town beyond the pass. "In the winter, you have to risk your life to go to Manali."

The tunnel will turn an ordeal of several hours, even in the summer, into a brisk 20-minute trip.

Virender Sharma, the chief government official in Kyelang, the main town of the Lahaul Valley, which sits between Manali and Ladakh, said that last winter 21 people died trying to cross the Rohtang Pass on foot. People were found frozen solid, he said, "sitting with rucksacks on their backs, water bottles at their sides, but they were dead."

Winters in the Lahaul Valley are a miserable affair, he said.

"During summer, it seems very pleasant," Mr. Sharma said. "In the winter, there is no light. No vegetables. No mail. Nothing to do in the evening. If there is an emergency, you are practically at the mercy of God."

For the engineers building the tunnel, it is not merely a matter of logistics, but also a matter of national pride.

"Once this tunnel is complete, it will be an engineering marvel for the whole nation," Mr. Mahajan said.
 

Logan

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Chill out guys !!!! :emot0: :happy_2:

U people have already started an indo-china internet war!!!! :angry_1: :angry_10:

To much speculation is bad for health!!! :emot15:
 

Yusuf

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What are forums for? Discussion of ideas. There ain't no internet war. Its amateur indians vs 50 centers and the 50 centers are not doing their monies worth.
 

prateikf

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let's not forget that our army is only 50% equipped to fight a war as per it's own reports. we lack everything-modern howitzer's, carabines, helmets, bullet proof vests, helicopter's, night vision devices, grenades etc. we are not capable of taking on pakistan at this stage let alone china. we are worse off than we were in 1999 during kargil. during kargil itself the then govt. had to make several emergency purchases of ammunition stocks, spares etc just to conquer a few mountain peaks. just what has this UPA done other than blacklisting all possible companies in the last 5 years? we are just a lame duck now. should the pakis attempt another kargil type adveture we would pay a very heavy price today. Pak has more than 500 self propelled howitzer's while we dont have even a single one. they have already started inducting the 155mm/52caliber howitzers with more than 50km range while our artillery induction has been postponed at best for another 10 years.
 

civfanatic

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let's not forget that our army is only 50% equipped to fight a war as per it's own reports. we lack everything-modern howitzer's, carabines, helmets, bullet proof vests, helicopter's, night vision devices, grenades etc. we are not capable of taking on pakistan at this stage let alone china. we are worse off than we were in 1999 during kargil. during kargil itself the then govt. had to make several emergency purchases of ammunition stocks, spares etc just to conquer a few mountain peaks. just what has this UPA done other than blacklisting all possible companies in the last 5 years? we are just a lame duck now. should the pakis attempt another kargil type adveture we would pay a very heavy price today. Pak has more than 500 self propelled howitzer's while we dont have even a single one. they have already started inducting the 155mm/52caliber howitzers with more than 50km range while our artillery induction has been postponed at best for another 10 years.
In 1947, 1965, 1971, and again in 1999, Pakistan thought we Indian kafirs were unprepared for war, and thought a combination of racial superiority and superior strategy would allow a quick Pakistani victory.

As you can see, we kafirs proved them wrong everytime. And if they dare try something again, they will be proved wrong once more.

NEVER underestimate the Indian Army mate. You can say we are lacking this, we are lacking that, but every army has its problems. Even the almighty invincible Pakistani Army. It's not just what you have, its how you use it that counts.
 

Ray

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Sir,

Isn't it safe to assume that the Chinese also will not be in a stand alone mode. What will be stand taken by countries like Pakistan, Iran, Yemen etc.

And how much access will SL provide to China keeping India on the opposite side.
Pakistan's Navy is a pushover. Yemen is a postage stamp with huge internal issues.

Iran will remain neutral since India is going out of the way to woo as also Iran's interest clashes with Pakistan in Afghanistan.
 

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