If India has to go for a two fronts war against China and Pakistan...

[badguy2000]

Actually, wars are decided by logistics. China gets most of her fuel by sea from the ME and India will easily be able to put an end to that. With that and an embargo from Russia and Chinese economy will come to a crashing halt. You will have to sequester all remaining civilian petrol to run the army campaign depriving the people of their autos. Industries will shut down keeping hundreds of millions out of work. India's first target will be Three Gorges which will kill 74 million people and make hundreds of millions destitute. Tibetan and Uighur revolutionaries will run wild. With the ensuing chaos local governments will fall and working its way to Beijing, the CCP will have no choice but to surrender. Logistics defeated Hannibal, Napleon, Hitler and every other general with a big head and China is in no position to change this fact.

pls study more ,then draw you cheap conclusion.

70%+ of chinese power source are coals, which is unique among all major powers.

Besides, CHina can produce 50% of its oil,which is enough to support its military missions already.

BTW, Chinese also has built global most advanced coal-to-oil plants in inner Mongolia.
the only barrier is that such a coal-to-oil fule is more expensive than oil .but during wartime,cost won't be considered too much.

 

[Vladimir79]

pls study more ,then draw you cheap conclusion.

70%+ of chinese power source are coals, which is unique among all major powers.

Besides, CHina can produce 50% of its oil,which is enough to support its military missions already.

BTW, Chinese also has built global most advanced coal-to-oil plants in inner Mongolia.
the only barrier is that such a coal-to-oil fule is more expensive than oil .but during wartime,cost won't be considered too much.

You don't get it do you. China producing 45% of its oil or 68% of its power generation through coal isn't going to make a bit of difference when the people are going to be suffering. Exports to India and Russia will automatically be cut off, export to the EU and Afrika will stop. China will be digging into her FOREX by the hundreds of billions per month. When the Three Gorges is hit, Southern China will be a huge disaster area. The people and industry will already be suffering a 50% reduction in petrol products, with a sustained war, they will be lucky to get anything. Hundreds of millions will be put on breadlines, those on the Yangtze will be dead or dying. The whole country will implode from the inside from not only peasant, but urban revolt. Today's Chinese are not as placated as Maoists.

 

[proud_hindustani]

How did Israel get in there? Zios don't give a rats behind about India and in a war against China, neither will USA. Russia is the only possibility and is highly doubtfull we would engage in a shooting match. We would provide arms, ammunition, and cut off energy and weapon supplies to China. This would be enough to cripple the higher end of PLAAF and put a strain on their war effort, probably enough for India to stop them and gain some ground in a counter attack. If India wanted Russia to actually attack, they should have joined CSTO. They were too busy walking the fence for that.

During Kargil War, Israel had assisted India in "Turn Around" and supplied military toys to India. Israel is one the main supplier of military hardware to India because they trust each other and facing the common enemy.

If the next long-term war breaks out between India and Pakistan or China, Israel would definitely step ahead to assist India and supply enough military hardwares and Russia would do the same.

U.S may not give high-tech military hardwares to India but It would surely pressurize India / Pakistan / China to stop war and withdraw their soldiers. If Pakistan and China don't hear and kept continue to fight. US may threat to shut it's market with China which would cripple the Chinese economic because China is a major importer to US. Russia's embargo on supply of weapons and energy would make China more crippler. Pakistan may receive a threat of halts of financial aid US gives. Our alliance with US is becoming stronger which will be beneficial to us.

one more thing, We do have good alliance with Britain and France and they will also help us against rogue Pakistan and China.

 

[roma]

just israel plus india is enough

It would be a major doomsday to India if he alone goes for two-front war against Pakistan and India. If Israel, USA and Russia joins with us, then we can defeat both countries easily.

btw such circumstance is never gonna happen.

hindustan , you dont need so many
just israel plus india is enough !

 

[roma]

india having to deal with both nw threat and NE threat seems a load until you consider how many israel has to deal with ! then all of a sudden what we are facing isnt quite that much is it ?

 

[Emperor]

How did Israel get in there? Zios don't give a rats behind about India and in a war against China, neither will USA. Russia is the only possibility and is highly doubtfull we would engage in a shooting match. We would provide arms, ammunition, and cut off energy and weapon supplies to China. This would be enough to cripple the higher end of PLAAF and put a strain on their war effort, probably enough for India to stop them and gain some ground in a counter attack. If India wanted Russia to actually attack, they should have joined CSTO. They were too busy walking the fence for that.

there is no end to Indian imagination and day dreaming.They will bring Israel into war with China and can bring even SA,Brasil,........ including US.
These people often fail to realise the ground facts.
As I already said in an Indo-Isreal-Iran thread that the business with Israel is commercial in receiving military technology and partially strategic when pakistan is considered.And Israel wont give sh!t when we go for a war with China.
And US....It will watch the move in an I-MAX .If there is someone to be called a saviour,it has to be none other than Russia.

As long as we have dimwit politicians like Nehru ruling India,India looses the almost winning war.It will even loose a war against srilanka.

If Nehru did took a note of the USSR words that China grounded 90% of its airforce due to lack of spares and it is unable to fare any better if the border skirmish proves ground to an air battle,Indian reinforcements with air backup would have liberated the Tibet as well.

But honestly speaking our beloved benchod Indian leaders licked the balls of US during the time who scared India that an escalated war would bring the Chinese airforce into action.(But US did know that Chinese grounded their planes)US simply got the India goat.

And yet 99% of the Indians love to lick US and its dollars.

Frankly speaking from my heart,
Today people whoever are boasting about nationalism and crap in the online defence forums wont even come out of their homes if a war has to happen.And they love to live under the chinese rule for the next 100`s of years if China has to invade India and take control of the nation.

If ,for winning a war ,Military prowess is one thing then the next big thing is the patriotic sense which binds the people to fight against the enemy and support the troops.

Yawn........I forgot our constitution of showing another side of face if one side takes the slap.

Be it a deterrent or the winning streak doesnt lie in the nuclear stockpile or in the military strength.It is the person who leads the folks fighting for their nation.

A good eye opener is Battle of Longewala.
If 120 soldiers can hold an invading force of 3000 infantry and 65 tanks and 200+ other supporting vehicles ,and killed 200+ soldiers and destroyed aLL TANKS.......
It was the major Kuldip Singh who ignited the morale and heated the nationalistic blood in those 120 odd soldiers and achieved a commendable victory in the end.
He the morale of the soldiers was high due to two reasons.One is due to the person leading them and other is PM Indira herself.

During the rule of Indira the morale of soldiers was at all time high.
and today???? you gotta have to answer urself.
Even at times the guns wont co-operate with soldier to fire.And you want to send this army to fight and defend?

Once we got a kick ass leader like Netaji,Indira,Hitler(only pure consideration of his military achievements ignoring his pacifist nature),you dont needs nukes or 1000`s of battalions to guard our borders.the leader himself serves as a deterrent.And If you want to invade? bingo.....

Till then,I beg my fellow nationals to differ about the war hysteria talks.
JAI HIND.


P.S: never mind

 

[roma]

How did Israel get in there? Zios don't give a rats behind about India and in a war against China, neither will USA. Russia is the only possibility and is highly doubtfull we would engage in a shooting match. We would provide arms, ammunition, and cut off energy and weapon supplies to China. This would be enough to cripple the higher end of PLAAF and put a strain on their war effort, probably enough for India to stop them and gain some ground in a counter attack. If India wanted Russia to actually attack, they should have joined CSTO. They were too busy walking the fence for that.

sorry to barge into your debate with someone else Vlad., just noticed this by chance.

basically i think israel would be overjoyed to SELL their systems to india and in that way they are interested to "join " with india .

as for joining CSTO , i had earlier made a case that india shd join CIS ( even as an observer or some sort of appropriate associate status ) but many resident indians felt that the diaspora effect and "pull" from the usa was too strong tio allow that .

i think the resident indians should re-think vis a vis :
usa is great for education adn perhaps migration ( less so these days bcos of crime in the usa ) and
russia much more relaible in military matters,
jsut my 2 cents worth

and btw i agree that they were too busy walking the fence or rather equivoacating !
i hope they will define more clearly which countries can contribute in what way.
right now , i fell there seems to be some confusion about that !

 

[roma]

You don't get it do you. China producing 45% of its oil or 68% of its power generation through coal isn't going to make a bit of difference when the people are going to be suffering. Exports to India and Russia will automatically be cut off, export to the EU and Afrika will stop. China will be digging into her FOREX by the hundreds of billions per month. When the Three Gorges is hit, Southern China will be a huge disaster area. The people and industry will already be suffering a 50% reduction in petrol products, with a sustained war, they will be lucky to get anything. Hundreds of millions will be put on breadlines, those on the Yangtze will be dead or dying. The whole country will implode from the inside from not only peasant, but urban revolt. Today's Chinese are not as placated as Maoists.

its great having a real live russian on the forum, i think we could do with a couple more ! gives a refreshing different angle , totally !

 

[proud_hindustani]

Emporer

Israel would definitely supply his high tech military toys to India when Indo-Sino war breaks out. China can't even scratch mischievous little boy "Israel" as long as he is holding hand of Uncle Sam.

 

[Koji]

What is India going to hit the Three Gorges Dam with? Hopefully you're not suggesting using the AGNI-2...lol. Plus hitting the dam justifies a nuclear response in return, and we all know that India does not have the number of nuclear weapons nor the delivery platforms that China has.

Plus there's no indiciation that Tibetans or Uighurs will "run wild." The past Chinese wars did not elicit any reponse from them.

PH...You don't get it. Why will Israel help India over China? Perhaps you are not aware of the extensive military trade between the two countries. The KJ-2000 was built b/c the US didn't want Israel to supply China with a Phalcon, and how do you think the Chinese got the basic designs for the J-10?

 

[K Factor]

70%+ of chinese power source are coals, which is unique among all major powers.

Besides, CHina can produce 50% of its oil,which is enough to support its military missions already.

BTW, Chinese also has built global most advanced coal-to-oil plants in inner Mongolia.
the only barrier is that such a coal-to-oil fule is more expensive than oil .but during wartime,cost won't be considered too much.

70% !! No wonder you produce 25% of the entire air pollution of the world.

If the fuel supplies from the ME are blocked, try running all the PLAAF, the tanks, APCs, trucks (logistics), domestic vehicles and your power stations on coal on domestic oil. China will come to a standstill within a week.
Either the conflict will go nuclear or a ceasefire will be signed. No other way out.

 

[K Factor]

What is India going to hit the Three Gorges Dam with? Hopefully you're not suggesting using the AGNI-2...lol. Plus hitting the dam justifies a nuclear response in return, and we all know that India does not have the number of nuclear weapons nor the delivery platforms that China has.

Since when did you become an expert on Chinese Nuclear doctrine?

 

[Koji]

70% !! No wonder you produce 25% of the entire air pollution of the world.

If the fuel supplies from the ME are blocked, try running all the PLAAF, the tanks, APCs, trucks (logistics), domestic vehicles and your power stations on coal on domestic oil. China will come to a standstill within a week.
Either the conflict will go nuclear or a ceasefire will be signed. No other way.

There are longer sea routes to China...Plus do you think that the Indian Navy is going to block all oil shipments to the Orient? First OPEC countries wouldn't allow it, and more importantly neither will Japan, SK, and the US!!!.

Plus China and Russia have signed a flurry of oil pipeline deals that avoid the sea. Someone provide me evidence that Indian and Russia are formal allies!!!!!

Why does Russia sell arms to China? Why do they have joint military exercises? Someone show me why Russia will conclusively side with India??

 

[K Factor]

There are longer sea routes to China...Plus do you think that the Indian Navy is going to block all oil shipments to the Orient? First OPEC countries wouldn't allow it, and more importantly neither will Japan, SK, and the US!!!.

Plus China and Russia have signed a flurry of oil pipeline deals that avoid the sea. Someone provide me evidence that Indian and Russia are formal allies!!!!!

Why does Russia sell arms to China? Why do they have joint military exercises? Someone show me why Russia will conclusively side with India??

Get an atlas or globe and do the math for how the oil will reach the Orient from the ME and how long it will take.

As to India and Russia? Do you know why China developed nukes? Did you know that the Russian sent a nuke sub into the Bay of Bengal during the 71 war, even though it was symbolic? Do you know that the USSR supported Vietnamese against China? Do you know that even Vietnam kicked China's a$$?

 

[proud_hindustani]

hindustan , you dont need so many
just israel plus india is enough !

Chinese army + Pakistani Army = vast quantity of army which will surpass the number of armies of India and Israel combined. China has large quantity of military toys compared to India. So we would need one extra ally to deal with Pakistan and China.

When it comes to the numbers of combat aircrafts with Pakistan and China Air Force together. Their numbers of combat aircrafts exceed the numbers of battle aircrafts of India and Israel Air force

PLAAF - 2000 combat aircrafts
PAF - 400 combat aircrafts

total = 2400 Aircrafts


India Air Force - 852 combat aircrafts
Israel Air Force - 400-497

total - 1349 jets or 1253 jets.

 

[Koji]

Get an atlas or globe and do the math for how the oil will reach the Orient from the ME and how long it will take.

As to India and Russia? Do you know why China developed nukes? Did you know that the Russian sent a nuke sub into the Bay of Bengal during the 71 war, even though it was symbolic? Do you know that the USSR supported Vietnamese against China? Do you know that even Vietnam kicked China's a$$?

Did you know that Vietnam beat the US? What are you insinuating anyways? Do you think that the Vietnamese are better off militarily than the US? Did you know that China beat India in 1962?? I suggest you knock off the childish comparisons.


Like I said, Russia and China have never been on better terms and they have signed oil pipeline deals.

AFP: Russia, China sign landmark oil pipeline deal

China, Russia Strike $25 Billion Oil Pact - WSJ.com

"The pipeline agreed on Tuesday would have a capacity of 15 million tons of oil per year and would be a branch of the main East Siberia-Pacific Ocean trunk pipeline, which is still under construction, officials said."


And perhaps you have noticed the very heavy Chinese presence in Central and South America?

BBC NEWS | Business | Venezuela and China sign oil deal

"Venezuela has also offered to supply 120,000 barrels of fuel oil a month to China"

Does that run through the Indian Ocean? As a matter of fact, does that railway between Pakistan and China register in your head? The Indian Navy does not have the capacity to check every single ship running through the busiest shipping lanes in the world, and it has to content with Japanese and South Korean, and US resistance to blocking trade. It is the US who encouraged a Chinese presence in the Indian ocean.

 

[K Factor]

Did you know that Vietnam beat the US? What are you insinuating anyways? Do you think that the Vietnamese are better off militarily than the US? Did you know that China beat India in 1962?? I suggest you knock off the childish comparisons.

No, Vietnam did not beat USA. USA quit the battle due to domestic public opinion being against the war. China on the other hand failed to achieve any of its OPBJS and received a bloody nose against the well entrenched Vietnamese. As to 62, yes China did gain the upper hand, but crossing into Indian ide and then running back before the counter-offensive with their tails between their legs due to logistics lines being over-run can hardly be called a 'win'.

Like I said, Russia and China have never been on better terms and they have signed oil pipeline deals.

AFP: Russia, China sign landmark oil pipeline deal

China, Russia Strike $25 Billion Oil Pact - WSJ.com

"The pipeline agreed on Tuesday would have a capacity of 15 million tons of oil per year and would be a branch of the main East Siberia-Pacific Ocean trunk pipeline, which is still under construction, officials said."

Signifies your dependance on Russia, your weakness nothing else. Russia and erstwhile USSR has always been on the side of India, and in the event of a Sino India conflict, the best China can hope for is that the Russians remain neutral.

And perhaps you have noticed the very heavy Chinese presence in Central and South America?

BBC NEWS | Business | Venezuela and China sign oil deal

"Venezuela has also offered to supply 120,000 barrels of fuel oil a month to China"

Does that run through the Indian Ocean? As a matter of fact, does that railway between Pakistan and China register in your head? The Indian Navy does not have the capacity to check every single ship running through the busiest shipping lanes in the world, and it has to content with Japanese and South Korean, and US resistance to blocking trade. It is the US who encouraged a Chinese presence in the Indian ocean.

And perhaps you should try to stop fooling yourself and others by quoting articles that are of no actual value?

Why? Let me explain.

1. Do the math

2. China's daily oil consumption

Increase that 2 times in the event of a war. And you think that 120,000 barrels a month from Venezuela will help you. Moreover, thats fuel oil, not engine grade for vehicles and aircraft. Whom are you bluffing, research stuff before you spout your mouth.

As to the Pak-China rail link, its going to be history in the event of a two front war.

Also, something else for you to ponder over.

China’s total oil production reached 4.0 bbl/d in 2008, similar to production in 2007. China’s largest and oldest oil fields are located in the northeast region of the country. CNPC’s Daqing field produced about 801,000 bbl/d of crude oil in 2008, according to FACTS Global Energy’s most recent estimate. Sinopec’s Shengli oil field produced about 553,000 bbl/d of crude oil during 2008, making it China’s second-largest oil field. However, Daqing, Shengli, and other ageing fields have been heavily tapped since the 1960s, and are expected to decline significantly in output in the coming years.
http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/China/Oil.html

 

[no smoking]

No, Vietnam did not beat USA. USA quit the battle due to domestic public opinion being against the war. China on the other hand failed to achieve any of its OPBJS and received a bloody nose against the well entrenched Vietnamese.

I suggest you to read the discussion about sino-vietnam war in WAB finding out what professional military expert like Colonel of Engineer said.

As to 62, yes China did gain the upper hand, but crossing into Indian ide and then running back before the counter-offensive with their tails between their legs due to logistics lines being over-run can hardly be called a 'win'.

Yes, Running out with the tails and Aksai chin between our legs.

 

[Singh]

Thread Closed for Moderation.

 

[youngindian]

Brace for two-front war, Army told

Tuesday, June 29, 2010

In an unprecedented move that has confirmed India's concerns about China's growing military might, the Government has for the first time given a directive in writing to the armed forces to enhance their military capabilities vis-a-vis the neighbouring country and prepare for a two-front war scenario with China and Pakistan.

Asking the armed forces to prepare themselves to fight simultaneous wars on the eastern and western fronts with China and Pakistan, Defence Minister AK Antony has directed the chiefs of Army, Navy and Air Force to rapidly modernise and upgrade their weapon systems and tone up operational preparedness.

The Services have been assured full support from the Government in this endeavour, sources said.

Explaining the significance of the directive, the sources maintained that it came against the backdrop of the armed forces' apprehensions about the rapid modernisation programme of their Chinese counterparts. The directive will allow the armed forces to build capabilities to rapidly move troops from one theatre of war to the other by procuring more transport planes and improved rail and road network for ferrying weapons systems.

Modern warfare was all about speed, lethality and mobility and the directive would go a long way in helping the armed forces achieve this objective as soon as possible, the sources added.

The directive follows the Cabinet Committee on Security's (CCS) nod to the Army to raise two more mountain divisions (each division has 10,000 troops) on the China front. With the focus on improving infrastructure, the Army was last year allowed to raise two mountain divisions. It means that in the next four or five years, it would have four divisions on the China front.

The Government has also removed the 10-year cap on recruitment and permitted the Army to go for fresh intakes. Coupled with this important development, the Government has cleared the proposal to acquire more than 200 Howitzer guns for these divisions through the foreign military sale route from the US.

"The Howitzer guns are light. These can be dismantled and carried on horseback or by helicopters to the remote and rugged terrain of Arunachal Pradesh and other such regions in Jammu & Kashmir where road infrastructure is non-existent," sources said.

While the two-front war concept was in public domain and being discussed in seminars and TV debates, the political leadership had so far refrained from joining the debate. The recently-issued directive clearly indicates that the Government has finally heeded the concerns of the armed forces and given them unambiguous orders to go ahead and do the needful, sources said.

This decision would give the necessary momentum to the security establishment to improve the infrastructure, including all-weather roads right up to the Line of Actual Control (LAC) and airports and helipads in remote regions of States like Arunachal Pradesh. In fact, the armed forces are already engaged in upgrading nearly 25 airports in the North-East and the project is likely to be over within the next two years.

India and China have a 5,000-km-long disputed border and the Chinese have over the years rapidly improved their logistical lines by building roads right up to their side of the LAC. India is in a disadvantageous position as the terrain on its side is hilly and building roads there takes more time than in the plains, sources said, adding that the slopes on the Chinese side are gentler.


http://www.dailypioneer.com/265796/Brace-for-two-front-war-Army-told.html