If India has to go for a two fronts war against China and Pakistan...

[p2prada]

Qilaotou

It is foolish to assume we do not have enough fighters. It is the other way around. Most of our airbases in the NE are on the plains whereas every Chinese airbase is in the mountains. That itself renders most of your point defense aircraft obsolete. Your single engined J-10s will not have enough legs for any "over the Himalayas" sortie, especially against a waiting squadron of MKIs.

Your Su-27s, J-11s need to be re-engined and new engine orders are not forthcoming. The old ones are really "old." At the same time HAL is contracted to build over 900 Al-31s for the IAF. Will increase because of our new order for 50 more MKIs. Perhaps a new engine upgrade will take place pretty soon, the 117S.

It will mainly be a flanker vs flanker battle. And our Flankers will easily outlast yours.

Also, PLAAF will not find many targets except for troop formations in NE India whereas India will find the military region in South China a juicy target along with the many dams near Tibet.

Hitting a small NE Indian dam will affect Bangladesh much more than it will affect India. Expect massive International pressure for that.

 

[qilaotou]

Qilaotou

It is foolish to assume we do not have enough fighters. It is the other way around. Most of our airbases in the NE are on the plains whereas every Chinese airbase is in the mountains. That itself renders most of your point defense aircraft obsolete. Your single engined J-10s will not have enough legs for any "over the Himalayas" sortie, especially against a waiting squadron of MKIs.

Your Su-27s, J-11s need to be re-engined and new engine orders are not forthcoming. The old ones are really "old." At the same time HAL is contracted to build over 900 Al-31s for the IAF. Will increase because of our new order for 50 more MKIs. Perhaps a new engine upgrade will take place pretty soon, the 117S.

It will mainly be a flanker vs flanker battle. And our Flankers will easily outlast yours.

Also, PLAAF will not find many targets except for troop formations in NE India whereas India will find the military region in South China a juicy target along with the many dams near Tibet.

Hitting a small NE Indian dam will affect Bangladesh much more than it will affect India. Expect massive International pressure for that.

I appreciated your reply. However I decided not to continue the discussion, as a protest against the warning of the mods.

 

[p2prada]

I appreciated your reply. However I decided not to continue the discussion, as a protest against the warning of the mods.

I don't know what you told Vladmir. But, he is an honorable member of DFI and also a military professional with years of service and experience in the matters of defense. His opinions are always valuable and any slight against such honorable members always results in a warning.

Mods in DFI encourage discussion from all members, irrespective of their nationality. As long as you are not racial or insult other members personally or on their nationality, you are always welcome to post anything meaningful and your opinions will always have value to all the members of DFI.

Regards.

 

[proud_hindustani]

If China does not attack on India for the next 20 years, it would be great. India has a long-term plan of augmenting military strength with its increasingly defense budgets. If Indian government actively keeps it's pace of military strength augmentation for the next 15-20 years, we would become very powerful. India and Russia are jointly developing the 5th generation fighter jet PAK-FA which would be a great threat to any enemy. Having ICBM, MIRV, SLBM facilities, some aircraft carriers, more nuclear submarines, fully operated nuclear capable hypersonic brahmos missiles, next generation sophisticated radars would make India powerful. After 20 years, India would have all kinds of missile system similar to China.

India's such military strength would be great to prevent China invading India.. China would have to think vigorously several time because both countries would have the same military facilities at that time. If the war breaks out, both countries would make great losses. A serious war throws both countries 10-15 years back in term of development.

Both nations would be unlikely to use nuclear bombs. Nuclear bombs are meant to keep one country protected from another country's invasion. The nuclear exchange between two countries would rip apart the ozone layers, allowing UV rays to reach to the earth which would become a global concern. Neighboring countries such as Bangladesh, Pakistatn, Afganistan, nepal would also be affected by nuclear residues.

As Pakistan is concerned, it would have heavy international pressures as it steps ahead to support China.

China and India are two big economic engines which are also connected to international countries for their economical benefits. A major devastation of two big economic engines means a big collapse of global economic and great suffering. So International countries would come in between to stop a war between India and China.

the best thing is to maintain good relationship with all countries, have complimentary attitudes toward other nations, create more and more economic connection for great benefits and lead a peaceful life.

 

[ravi9887]

Pakistan, India, China

Both iNdia and pAKIStan should avoid War.....it could drag them back to 20 years.....

USA can afford wars but these poor couldnt so that's my request to the govts of both countries to avoit conflicts

here is a list of the aircrafts of Pakistan

 

[SATISH]

Both iNdia and pAKIStan should avoid War.....it could drag them back to 20 years.....

USA can afford wars but these poor couldnt so that's my request to the govts of both countries to avoit conflicts

here is a list of the aircrafts of Pakistan



Yes I totally support your view....and I wish the top brass of all our countries were like this...but from reality things are different...there are only 2 words that spoil peace...those are "Vested Interests"

 

[nomadtg]

Would you guys please stop war mongering! if India and china ever go to war, there would be only one winner, the united states.
The fact is that if current trends don't change, both india and china will have the weight to leverage US on a global stage. don't even think they yankees are happy to see india powerful enough to compete for resources with them like china is doing today, instigate potential challengers to go to war and they make profit by supply weapons, that is what the yankees always do.
So indians should wake up from your dreams, US is never your ally and never will be, for them, you're just a tool to contain china. we both should seize the opportunity to develop ourselves instead of sarcrifice ourselves to support the yankees hegemony.

 

[nitesh]

^^

nice post, good advise to India. But I am curious what China is doing to mitigate the tension?

 

[truthfull]

Both iNdia and pAKIStan should avoid War.....it could drag them back to 20 years.....

USA can afford wars but these poor couldnt so that's my request to the govts of both countries to avoit conflicts

here is a list of the aircrafts of Pakistan

yes good suggestion ,avoid wars and focus on development.

 

[Yusuf]

Lets stop being idealistic. The situation is not ideal and none of our leaders pragmatic. In fact no side is willing to give an inch as it will be viewed anti national and a sell off.

This thread is discussing a scenario, so lets talk about that. Lets not talk about whats the ideal thing to do.

 

[nomadtg]

Believe me, most of the chinese today only care about how to make money and take care of their own business. indian media should stop creating news and fears. china now is indian's biggest trade partner, and china is an export oriented economy. we both know what would happen if we go to war, therefore it won't happen!
The situation is much diffierent than 1962, then we both had nearly no oversea interests and indepednt from the outside world.
If they tensions upgrade, we'll see some gun shoots at most, the govts we'll cool it off, because they both know their first priority is development, therefore no need to talk about nukes, ICBMs or such.
China and USSR once fought at the border in the 60th, today you can see people do business there and you can hardly tell where the border is, so my suggestion is to cool off , globalisation is not gonna stop, this may not be a problem in decades , the the EU today！

 

[Sabir]

Believe me, most of the chinese today only care about how to make money and take care of their own business. indian media should stop creating news and fears. china now is indian's biggest trade partner, and china is an export oriented economy. we both know what would happen if we go to war, therefore it won't happen!
The situation is much diffierent than 1962, then we both had nearly no oversea interests and indepednt from the outside world.
If they tensions upgrade, we'll see some gun shoots at most, the govts we'll cool it off, because they both know their first priority is development, therefore no need to talk about nukes, ICBMs or such.
China and USSR once fought at the border in the 60th, today you can see people do business there and you can hardly tell where the border is, so my suggestion is to cool off , globalisation is not gonna stop, this may not be a problem in decades , the the EU today！

Thanks for your post. Hope both Government will be careful to avoid an unnecessary war that can take away the gain we have achieved after a lot of hard work. Let me tell you one thing honestly, most of us (including me) believe China can fight a war indirectly using Pakistan if necessary. That's why Pakistan is being armed for years. Now, you all know the situation of Pakistan. It is considered a global migrane. I want to know how You, people in China (I said common people of China, not government) takes this friendship with a rogue State like Pakistan.

 

[johnee]

Believe me, most of the chinese today only care about how to make money and take care of their own business. .........

Friend,
This thread is to discuss a scenario. If PRC could hold its horses and learn not to try to put down India overtly and covertly, then sure India and China could be friends, do lots of business and so on. But all that apart, dont hijack this thread with irrelevant topics. This thread is dedicated to discuss a specific scenario, lets stick to it.

 

[nomadtg]

Friend,
This thread is to discuss a scenario. If PRC could hold its horses and learn not to try to put down India overtly and covertly, then sure India and China could be friends, do lots of business and so on. But all that apart, dont hijack this thread with irrelevant topics. This thread is dedicated to discuss a specific scenario, lets stick to it.

Please don't mix Fantasy with scenario, the day when two countries posess nukes, it made a full scale war between great powers impossible, all shouting are just politicians gestures. today us and russia are reducing their nukes doesn't mean they love peace just becuase such a massive nuke arsenal is useless which just waste budget to keep them. so china have more nukes doesn't mean china has a upper hand in that respect.
I went to india several times for business, what i see is a lot of people are still under poverty just like china in the inner land, the mass don't care about the votes for your politicians , the only thing the need is food. like I said before the govts will cool it off just like what you general did lately by saying "chinese are not ivading, the media should stop creating fear"

So you should make your scenario more rational than fantasy, we're not discussing hollywood movie,

 

[Sabir]

Please don't mix Fantasy with scenario, the day when two countries posess nukes, it made a full scale war between great powers impossible, all shouting are just politicians gestures. today us and russia are reducing their nukes doesn't mean they love peace just becuase such a massive nuke arsenal is useless which just waste budget to keep them. so china have more nukes doesn't mean china has a upper hand in that respect.
I went to india several times for business, what i see is a lot of people are still under poverty just like china in the inner land, the mass don't care about the votes for your politicians , the only thing the need is food. like I said before the govts will cool it off just like what you general did lately by saying "chinese are not ivading, the media should stop creating fear"

So you should make your scenario more rational than fantasy, we're not discussing hollywood movie,

Thanks again friend. But as per the norms of the forum we have to stick to the topic -be it scenario or fantasy. What's about opening a new thread about how China and India can be benefited by good relations and what are the demands from both sides for making such reletion......Please take initiateive.

 

[Yusuf]

Nomad, are you crazy to admit there is poverty in china under the great ccp rule? You must not be scared of the re education (read concentration camps).
Still like I said before, business is on one side and long term strategic interests on the other. The latter out weighs the former. China cannot see a strong india. It will one day try another mis adventure. The sooner you try the better. the door is fast shutting if its not already.

 

[nomadtg]

Yusuf, your knowledge about china is outdated. I think all your objectives of china based on what you read from the western press. you should come here and see what china is really like today, and a lot of indians working in my city shenzhen, maybe you can get some authentic info from them. Bias never stop among different ideology, you have to open your eyes and see it by yourself.

This is going too far! some body will again accuse me for hijacking the topic, I'll stop after this post, if you wonna talk about democracy, you can start a new thread!

 

[blade]

Without mentioning any name perticularly i would like to state that how ever much we may talk about irresponsible indian media hype about chinese incursion its a fact under day light that the situation in the northern bordar is or was never peaceful.Recent chinese statement that remind India of 1962 debacle puts it very very straight. So plzz lets not play a cat and mouse here and waste our energy. More or less every medio in the world will take advantage of such situations to create sensation so there is nothing to magnify it as the prime cause. May be Indians are also violating the Mcmohan line i am not sure but writen chinese scripts on the rock proves chinese wrong doing very very clearly so why to bite about the bush and talk about china being indias biggest trade partner? So what if they are so ? Dose it mean we should close our eyes and sit happily? Now tell me chinese friends wht if a similar thing had happened to u as 1962 what you would have done.Well lets consider even in 1962 India was the agressor ( though the majority has just the opposite but again as we all know that whole of the world has always been so unkind and unjust to people of pakistan & china . like as we can see india , whole of west , now even some of the middle east countries are talking against pakistan for state sponsored terrorism ..what a shame on them ,pakistan , a country which is even incapable of making a ball pen is making nukes that too with out any help from any country , A.Q KHAN such a great scientist who has been termed as a spy, nuke thief and a broker between pak & china nexus. So bad. China which never supplied even an ant to pakistan is being termed as the elephant suppplier. Anyway dont worry hopefully bad times will be over and many of the highly educated people of pakistan trained and mastered the art of software and physics in madrassah s will soon join chinese mass with a few kgs of RDX.) even then india lost the battel partially due to its weakness and partially due to our great bloody brains sitting in masnad. So we are trying to rectify our mistakes. What bothers you my dear? We are doing it in our side of land . You can well carry on with your goals that u have been doing since long time back. I really cant believe that chinese think tank can be as frivolous and illogical as judging the outcome of a war just based on a skirmish in the year 1962 which was again not properly fought. You are issuing seperate visa for kashmir and we cant invite Dalai lama? why not buddy ? A very closer tie with taiwan is urgently required . with a sell of of some upgraded akasha missile , which can even be supplimented with indo israeli EW suits for their fighters which defeated US jets. how will that be frinds? I think it will be awesome isnt it ? come on china is already a self proclaimed super power .taking a sneek at us aircraft carier so they need some solid trouble to harness their militery prowess. I certainly appriciate chinese sell of fighters to pakistan they should sell more of them hopefully that will see some brahmos in taiwan soon.

 

[Yusuf]

Yusuf, your knowledge about china is outdated. I think all your objectives of china based on what you read from the western press. you should come here and see what china is really like today, and a lot of indians working in my city shenzhen, maybe you can get some authentic info from them. Bias never stop among different ideology, you have to open your eyes and see it by yourself.

This is going too far! some body will again accuse me for hijacking the topic, I'll stop after this post, if you wonna talk about democracy, you can start a new thread!

Yeah right, There are no labor camps in China. I think you need to be reeducated about what happens in China. You guys were not even allowed to see your own national day parade!!

And no we dont want to preach democracy to people who just dont want to be free and live under the clutches of an authoritarian party. You dont have the guts to stand up for your own rights. And if you are fine with being oppressed, good on you. Why do i care.

But yes, this thread was to discuss a scenario and that is what we have been and will do in the future. And you are free to post here on DFI like all other Chinese. See the post count of Badguy , Koji and Yang . We have an open mind here.

 

[blade]

Well frinds now lets talk about two way war which is the main issue of this thread.
There are 4 possibilities
1. India attacks both china & pakistan
2. India attacks china but later on pakistan joins with china
3. india attack pakistan and china comes forwarn to help pak.
4. Both china & pak attacks india

case 1. we must be living in a fools paradise to even dream such a thing.
case 2. chances are very less very yes possible on issues like brahmaputra dam.
case 3. most likely case in
case 4. again very less possible as that will bring a huge international bashing of chinese vintage forces and their funny number game will soon be striped under the day light.

Now to understand the situation better we must remember that before we get the answar to the question raised in this thread we should be able to identify the level of military confrontation that we are talking about. Is it just a limited war ? or a midium size lasting for a couple of month ? or fighting till the last drop of blood?
As all the countries under consideration are nuke capable limited war is the most likely case.
The points that we will have to remember to analize the situation properly could be listed as follows.
1. currently india holds a overwhilming superiority over pakistani air force and this gape will widen exponentially with the time.
2. infantry and mechanised forces are extreamly vulnarable to air attacks.
3. even after the induction of agostas pakistan has just 0% chance to break free an Indian naval blockade.
4. the topography of sino indian border dosnt allow a very large and heavy mechanised confrontation.Not even a very high density of personal deployment is possible.
5. chinese conventional subs dosnt hv the capability to reach indian ocean.
6. Even now indian navy holds a upper hand in overall fire power over chinese counter part thanks to brahmos which has a greater range and accuracy than chinse yakhont.
7. keeping point 6 in mind its unlikely that chinese nuke subs will come in to help pakistan to break free of indian blockade with an escorting fleet of chinese destroyers and frigates.Isolated noisy chinese ssgns will be under extream threat.
8. Inspite of overall chinese suprimacy IAF dose hold some key advantages over chinese counterpart. With atleast 40 brand new Su 30 mki and even if it is just 1 phalcon will be a massive danger to any chinese flying fancy.
9. T-90S are far better than anything that pakistan has. Even repost says china will have to take immidiate measure to upgrade its tank force to counter india otherwise by 2020 IA will field the most powerful mechanized force in asia.
10. China has a huge stock pile of different types of missles which will be of immense threat to indian military and civil assets.
11. A few brahmos with very less range will counter chinese missile threat not to great extent. So lets not brag about it.
12. China has a far better military satelite infrastructure.
13. even today indian mig 21 bisons are better than most of the pakistani fighters leaving
f 16 blk 52 where as f 16 a/b will have a tough time against it. It also posses great threat to pakistani invading talk force.
14. No cross country mobile air to air capability is available with pakistan.. most likely not even with china as akash is the only of its kind as of now in the world.
15. Night vision capability of both IAF and IA is far superior to anything that pakistan can field. thanx to israel. though T 90S night vision continues to trouble.
16. india has huge anti armour stock pile which can be very dengerous for pakistani t 80s and al khalids

well these are the technicals on which indian offensive will be revolving around. Suppose india attacks pakistan on account of another 26/11 and china joins in. In this new picture india will certainly barr itself from any further penetrating adventure into pakistani soil and their main objective will be to contain them and maintain the sanctity of the border. A floke of 100 indian birds with gud BVR along with robast indian air defence ( may be old according to world standered but mirage III, chinese mig 21 copy that was sold to pak, f 16 a/b are no state of the art stuff for that matter. existing SAMS can very welll take care of pakistani air force. which has jets those are much older than indian old but upgraded SAMs.)
will be enough to prevent any pakistani air or land incursion. especially with around 4 lac infantry with anti armour devices with less but effective air support looming large at the border. A naval blokade will drmatically bring down the pakistani endurance to no more than 15 days at the most.Indian UAVs will play a very very vital role in this containment role by providing partial early warning support. Israeli UAVs along with 25 to 35 brahmos will leave the forward marching pakistani force high and dry with all the supply line smashed.With large scale serial production of high quality radar devices India has confirmed its advantage over pakistani army long time back. This will expose any malacious adventure of pak forces much earlier and act as a battle field force multiplier. In this tough situation India will be very much dependent on force multiplier as the actual strenght for her forces will not permit her to take on two nuke nations at a time but these force multipliers will give india a virtually much more powerful and much more effective armed force.How ever much pakistan may brag about their achievements in defence but its very hard to believe that a defence budget worth 8 billion will servive against 40 billion for more than 15 days.
Again the main threat from pakistan will be its ballastic missile forces which still seem to have some advantage over india. ( atleast in terms of availability with the armed forces if not about technical knowhow ) here india cant help but take the losses mainly by pakistani SRBM as the longer version will not be used as it will be mistaken as a nuke attack.Again here the very less pakistani stratigic depth will go against it where indian SRBM will take care of most of pak's vital installations where as ghouri will be far away from it.But we can still expect considerable damange of the infrustructure in the border states.Indian navy apart from posing a blockade will launch a smashing attach being completely unchallenged, but will not go very deep as virat currently carry only 11 sea harriers and i am not sure if the 4 new mig 29k can be used on her. So IN might be vulnarable to pak air force with IAF busy on the northen sector with china. Pakistani surface fleet will hide near to the harbour and behind the chain of pak submarines. The only serious threat to IN from pak will not be submarines rather it will be the chinese copy tomahawks, though i am not sure if they could be used in anti ship role ( possibly not and meant for grount attack ). The indian old mig 21 s possibly all will be used against pakistan only. The total number will be around 200 ( including 40 odd bisons) along with 30+ mig 29s and 45 mirages[do remember these mirages were bought by india to counter pak f 16 A/B] ( so this will bring the indian 4th gen fighter strenght to 75 which is still little more than pak 4th gen f 16 A/B as not many f 16 blk 52 will be available..may be around 4/5 . For final superiority india may use 20 odd Su 30 mki. IA will place most of her T 90S and and non upgraded t 72s near the pak bordar while Arjun along with chesis mounted Akash will be accompying t72. Arjuns are likely to be placed in rajasthan as that will be the most threatning posture toward pak. 70 + arjun with akash can crush into pakistani territory and grab land within very short notice to counter any loss of land eles where.




Now comming to Northen border. With china india has no chance to match them force by force so they will not even try that. Rather they will try to hit the pride of china by going into hitech warfare and causing extensive damage. Indian strategy will be assymetic and net centric. Indian airforce will deploy about 90 + su 30 mki , 30 + mig 29s , 60+ mig 21 bisons and its only AWAC phalcon. Best of indian mobile SAMs will be moved toward northern border. Atleast some of the S 300 MLUs are likely to be shifted from the city area and placed nearer the bordar which is not near to the SU 30 mki bases.Indian jets will fly in mix formation. SU 30mki along with mig 21 bisons will form the strike force for IAF whereas some mig 21 bisons with mig 29 under the realm of phalcon will play a defensive role little deeper into indian territory. The areas without a powerful enough airforce umbrella will field the best of indian SAMs like upgraded growlers and pichoras. Some batteries of SU 300 will be scatterdly placed to offer sudden surprizes to invading chinese birds.In avionics ( jammer, radar EW suits , ECM pods etc) india will enjoy some key advantages over the best of chinese techs.
Ideas of Indian side will be to force escalate the tension with china.Slik and smart portion of indian forces will try to inflict serious damage to chinese invadors so as to force them to bring in over powering force into play and thus calling for international involvement. The main offensive of indian armed forces will revolve around phalcon & su 30 mki 's. IA will field its upgraded T- 72 s and BMPs , howtzers , pinaca & smurch .Indian tanks and and BMPs will suffer huge losses to chinese anti armour force, again indian MBRLS with the help of israeli "UAVs will inflict massive destruction to chinese soft infantry tgts.Its unlikely that chinese airforce will try much of adventure as within a limited scale, with about max 100 chinese birds in action over the entire region, will call for havor destruction of their j 10s, j 11s , su mkks. India will try to disrupt the supply lines of the chinese forces by using brahmos and air launched stand off cruise missles. Chinese cruise missiles will cause havoc to indian supply lines , air bases , and other big installation nearer to bordar. Though india has the capability of shooting down a large number of chinese missiles but indian SAM capability will be over powered by the sheer number of chinese missiles. some smurch MBRL's will be caumofledged deep into indian territory to flush out enemy infantry incase of any invasion. Samukya will be deplyoed to cover up the location of key indian strike forces by jamming enemy weapon locating radars. The sanctity of Mcmohan line will again largely depend on Iaf . India will try to escallate the tension along the border by a systematic and and coordinated offensive defence by maximizing attrition to the chinese forces. As per my understanding china will loose much more lives than india whereas india will take serious damage in installations and armoured sections. Both the navies will be put on high alart but with no real confrontation on the ground will take place.

Finally border with china will depend on how effecienty india brings in international involvlement into the game. Either too early or too late international intervention will see India loosing some more land to china whereas pakistan will face serious spanking everywhere even aganst 40% of indian forces, may even end up lossing some land ( overall). whereas china will give india a nice show of its missile prowess and make india cry over the wastage of time. India willl loose about 5k lives with china about 8k. atleast 100 indian tank will be smashed even in limited war. many other installations will be crippled, many air bases will be heavily damaged. may get away with a little loss of land if war is stopped within 1 month.So india should try to capture equivalent amount of land from pakistani soil which could be traded with chinese occupied indian territory after the war is called off.