If India has to go for a two fronts war against China and Pakistan...

hit&run

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LF, I am not worrying about Pakistan. They are at best a nuisance. All my posts have been China centric.


Here are the links to show that China has neutron bomb capability and we all know it has supersonic CMs.

The Cruise Missile and the Neutron Bomb: Some Moral Reflections

Popular Mechanics - Google Books Go to page 113.

China says it can build neutron bomb:

China Says It Can Build Neutron Bomb; Beijing Attempts to Discredit Cox Report on Theft of U.S. Secrets - The Washington Post | Encyclopedia.com
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Read some articles on chines nuclear doctrine, that will help. chines have NFU policy. if they will change their mind for NFU policy; it will prompt US to counter this policy which chines cant afford for next 50 years given the fact if china will keep the same pace of her economy growth with less dependency on oil (which seems IMPOSSIBLE to me).
So chines perception to attack India with nukes is counter balanced by bio feed mechanism as US is acting as buffer for India.
The scenario we are talking is before 2020; i will appreciate if we can think more in terms of conventional war with china.

India can afford to stop pursuing NFU policy. Yes it is is very possible for us. Pakistani nuclear evil is a very big excuse for us discard NFU thus we be able to check china as well (with one stone two birds).

Recent Pakistani misadventure to increase its nuclear stock pile and proliferation can be properly utilized with such timely reviews on different aspect of our nuclear doctrine.

To make it very easy;
Your china concentric theories of nuclear attack directly by them is not practical as i can prove with one argument; Why china was/is inclined to proliferating nuclear technology or making many nuclear capable pockets in Asia.

2.About why India is more capable to force aggressor not to use nukes is because India has no pressure, not to use Nukes.it can change its stand on NFU due to Pakistani nuclear expansion, Pakistan already has such policy which is India concentric so we have no pressure at all. Also it will be more difficult for Pakistan without genuine second strike capabilities??)

3. India will have more moral reasoning as he will be a defender not aggressor.
India has history of being defender and has never attacked any nation even during kargil and should pursue the same diplomacy.

4. China don't consider India being worth for full scale war, they are chickened by USA, there current nuclear doctrine explain this.

Same can be said about India as Indian nuclear doctrine is some what identical to chines counterpart but its funny to know that India is chickened by India its self not by anyone else. It shows how dodo policy makers we have (some times Indian politicians are over diplomatic, over defencive and more obsessed with would be fictional threats).
 

AkhandBharat

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Read some articles on chines nuclear doctrine, that will help. chines have NFU policy. if they will change their mind for NFU policy; it will prompt US to counter this policy which chines cant afford for next 50 years given the fact if china will keep the same pace of her economy growth with less dependency on oil (which seems IMPOSSIBLE to me).
So chines perception to attack India with nukes is counter balanced by bio feed mechanism as US is acting as buffer for India.
The scenario we are talking is before 2020; i will appreciate if we can think more in terms of conventional war with china.

India can afford to stop pursuing NFU policy. Yes it is is very possible for us. Pakistani nuclear evil is a very big excuse for us discard NFU thus we be able to check china as well (with one stone two birds).

Recent Pakistani misadventure to increase its nuclear stock pile and proliferation can be properly utilized with such timely reviews on different aspect of our nuclear doctrine.

To make it very easy;
Your china concentric theories of nuclear attack directly by them is not practical as i can prove with one argument; Why china was/is inclined to proliferating nuclear technology or making many nuclear capable pockets in Asia.

2.About why India is more capable to force aggressor not to use nukes is because India has no pressure, not to use Nukes.it can change its stand on NFU due to Pakistani nuclear expansion, Pakistan already has such policy which is India concentric so we have no pressure at all. Also it will be more difficult for Pakistan without genuine second strike capabilities??)

3. India will have more moral reasoning as he will be a defender not aggressor.
India has history of being defender and has never attacked any nation even during kargil and should pursue the same diplomacy.

4. China don't consider India being worth for full scale war, they are chickened by USA, there current nuclear doctrine explain this.

Same can be said about India as Indian nuclear doctrine is some what identical to chines counterpart but its funny to know that India is chickened by India its self not by anyone else. It shows how dodo policy makers we have (some times Indian politicians are over diplomatic, over defencive and more obsessed with would be fictional threats).
China is not changing its NFU because it simply can't afford to go nuclear first because of its limited warheads, much like India. Pakistan nukes are however only directed at one country and hence it doesn't go for NFU. China like India, has nuclear threats from multiple nation states (in fact from more nations than India has) and hence cannot change NFU.

Regarding your statement, that China doesn't consider India a threat for a full scale war, is an understatement at best. China is threatened by India's economic progress and it wary of sharing its slice of manufacturing industry with India. It is not just about a single district. That is a ruse for going to war. China wants to assume leadership in Asia and marginalize India by any means possible.

And your assumption that the United States will come to India's aid is flawed too. US and India don't have any agreement (even if there were one it can be broken as shown by Germany in WW2). The United States and India have always had an on-again off-again relationship. So, It can be fatal to assume that they will come to India's help. We have to get every help we can but we have to prepare for the worst.

Countries don't just jump into war if their friends go to war. Read up on the history of the previous world wars and you will see how opportunistic each country was and the reasons why they joined the war.

The only reason the US has made an agreement with Taiwan is to keep China's navy in check in the pacific in the pretext of "preserving democracy". And their navy's presence is significant in the Indian Ocean and the Arabian sea, so they don't need such an agreement with India. If China solves its Taiwan problem (which seems plausible), it will come after India.
 

johnq

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The Chinese wont launch BM attacks, because they know that we might think its a Nuke BM and Nuke them back. There is no way to identify a conventional BM or a Nuke tipped BM, atleast as far as I know.
I don't think that is how our Indian NO FIRST USE policy is set up. India would reply with nuclear weapons only after the first nuclear explosion.

This is probably why the Chinese have massive quantities of short/medium-range ballistic missiles exclusively for the conventional strike role. India should do the same, and also have plenty of ABM missiles set up to defend against ballistic missiles (of up to 5000km range). I think the Indian defence establishment is already thinking along these lines, hence the missile defence tests. I just wish they could speed up the process and production.
 

no smoking

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Regarding your statement, that China doesn't consider India a threat for a full scale war, is an understatement at best. China is threatened by India's economic progress and it wary of sharing its slice of manufacturing industry with India. It is not just about a single district. That is a ruse for going to war. China wants to assume leadership in Asia and marginalize India by any means possible.
You are realy unbelievable.

Since when, the chinse starts to worry that indian may work harder and smarter than us? Tell me: Is there any country started a war because it can't work hard and smart as its neighour?
 

Yusuf

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I am talking of the Sukhois and MRCA Yusuf. Yes the AWACS will be the Key. They can tacke the CMs alongwith our Sams. Paks wont use CM against cities, they will use it against our air bases and other strategic points. The LCA will have a very potent Radar, which can pick up these CMs I am sure. They will be very useful. The Migs cant be discounted either, though I dont know how potent the Bison is against CMs. I am sure the Sukhois can take them out, if not all, a good percentage, the rest will be taken care of Sams.

I doubt even if they will use CMs against our bases, because it will draw heavy retaliation. They will try to keep the war at the low threshhold, and threaten to go nuke. That will be their tactic. I maybe wrong though.
No the interceptors are good enough for this job. I don't think the sukhois will be employed for that. MRCA maybe.
Mig 21 is BVR capable and carries WVR too. It is still a good bet for CM interception.
 

Yusuf

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you are right yusuf,i meant as an option for a tactical weapon.
Any tactical weapon will be tipped on the Prithvi which is a tactical battlefield BM. Shourya because of it cannister launch capability will be hidden and is a second strike weapon. It will not carry tactical, but strategic nukes.
 

AkhandBharat

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You are realy unbelievable.

Since when, the chinse starts to worry that indian may work harder and smarter than us? Tell me: Is there any country started a war because it can't work hard and smart as its neighour?
Nope, your country is really unbelievable. I mean which country stops an international bank to release funds for the betterment of land? Even if you want Tawang, it doesn't make sense to stop the ADB to release funds to India, so that it can develop Arunachal? What are you afraid of over there? If the people are developed, they will want people's rule and not the CCP rule?
 

nitesh

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Any tactical weapon will be tipped on the Prithvi which is a tactical battlefield BM. Shourya because of it cannister launch capability will be hidden and is a second strike weapon. It will not carry tactical, but strategic nukes.
No yusuf I kinda disagree here. Prithvi is already a tactical weapon soon see the shourya getting in to that category. Only Agni series will remain in strategic weapon category. So the shoury style cruise cum ballistic missiles can create havoc in enemy formations
 

Sabir

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Guys, Pakistan is in a better position than China to for using Air attack and cruise missiles against India. We can not over look Pakistan as their inventory is much smaller than China. because in a combined war against India Pakistani infrastructure will be used by the Chinese. We need to develop and introduce more systems like SPYDER or land version of Barak that can protect our strategic points and cities from such threat of enemy aircrafts and cruise missiles. India needs to be full offensive against pakistan from the very first hour to destroy their infrastuctures so that these can not be used by the Chinese later.
 

johnq

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The problem is also with army leadership and politicians. China has already grabbed 3 parts of Ladakh in the past 25 years, while we did nothing about it. Check this article: China's land grab in India exposed- TIMESNOW.tv - Latest Breaking News, Big News Stories, News Videos


China's land grab in India exposed
7 Sep 2009, 1549 hrs IST

In the issue related to the Chinese land grab in the state of Jammu & Kashmir, TIMES NOW accessed the letter of the state police. TIMES NOW has learnt that the Northern Commander of the Indian Army is visiting 14 Corps in the next few days to study the situation.

Sources say, General P C Bhardwaj will be taking up the issue of Chinese incursions.

What began with helicopter violations into Indian airspace now has escalated into the Chinese Army brazenly violating the International Border on the ground in Ladakh. In fact, the matter will also be discussed at the next border meet between Indian and Chinese officials.

What exactly happened ?

In the latest violation on the ground, Chinese troops entered nearly 1.5 kilometres into the Indian territory near Mount Gya. The Chinese soldiers then went on to scribble 'CHINA' on rocks in Indian territory. Indian soldiers later erased the text writing 'INDIA' instead.

In the statement China claimed that Beijing seeks a fair and mutually acceptable solution through a peaceful and friendly negotiation. The Foreign Ministry claimed that no such incursion ever occurred.

Chinese army threatens Indians in J&K

Even as the Chinese deny incursions into Indian territory, there is another worrying report that Chinese soldiers intruding into India threatened innocent Indian shepherds in the Ladakh area. Aggressive Chinese troops threatened Indians in Jammu & Kashmir to vacate the land.

This startling piece of information has been revealed in this letter dated January 2009 written by the Leh Deputy Commissioner accessed by TIMES NOW .

The letter reveals the Chinese threat made to Indian shepherds in January this year. A very worried Deputy Commisioner of Leh informed his superior - the Divisional Commissioner of Kashmir - of this intrusion. The letter dated 12th of january 2009 revealed the details of the intrusion and as to how the Chinese army harassed shepherds in the region and then threatened them.

The letter also makes a startling claim - the larger threat that the Chinese now even claim that parts of Ladakh are their own.

P Stoben, China Expert, IDSA, said, "They came and they told our nomads to get out. Indians get out - these are the words being used very aggressively and they stayed there. I don't know the position right now as whether they have gone back."

Previous instances

China's past record on incursions speaks for itself. In the past 25 years, China has taken control of over at least three areas in Ladakh - Nang Tsang in 1984, later Nagkung and finally Lung-ma Ser-ding - all areas that initially belonged to India.

Strategic experts feel that such incursions and aggressive patrolling by the Chinese forces in Ladakh sector is aimed to establish their presence in the areas that could come under negotiations between the two sides and that this way they will be able to strengthen their claims over the same in the near future.

What began with helicopter violations into Indian airspace now has escalated into the Chinese Army brazenly violating the International Border on the ground in Ladakh. In fact, the matter will also be discussed at the next border meet between Indian and Chinese officials.
 

johnq

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ITBP jawans injured in China border shootout - India - NEWS - The Times of India

Nirmalya Banerjee & Prabin Kalita, TNN 15 September 2009, 12:36am IST

KOLKATA/GUWAHATI: Simmering tensions along the mountainous frontier with China appear to have become serious with a revelation that two jawans of the Indo-Tibetan Border Police, the sentinel force along the Line of Actual Control (LAC), were injured in bullets fired from the Chinese side.

The firing in an area identified as Kerang in northern Sikkim took place a fortnight ago but has been kept under wraps. It was confirmed on Monday by a highly-placed intelligence source, who is not authorised to give information to the media. ITBP officials at its headquarters in New Delhi declined to confirm the incident.

It was the first incidents where bullets have been fired since the landmark 1996 Sino-India agreement in which both sides pledged not to open fire, no matter what the provocation, as a part of confidence-building measures.

Sources cite this as yet another instance of China's maintaining pressure on the 2.1 sq km area of `Finger Tip' in northern Sikkim. Last year, China had sent a vehicle-mounted patrol into this area, penetrating 1 km into Indian territory. The Kerang shootout prompted an unscheduled border personnel meeting on August 30.

Also last week, the entire situation along the LAC was reviewed in a war game by the Eastern Command top brass in Kolkata's Fort William, Eastern Command HQs, in the presence of Army chief General Deepak Kapoor.

Violations aren't new but have rarely involved casualties. What is alarming is the report of shooting along the LAC which has remained peaceful for decades since the Chinese invasion of 1962.

At Asaphila in Upper Subansiri Division of Arunachal Pradesh, for instance, a contingent of 22 Chinese troops had intercepted an armed Indian patrol of two policemen, three porters and five Special Service Bureau personnel in June 2003, disarmed them and returned them to the Indian Army.

In contrast, the Kerang incident could be a significant and dangerous deviation from the practice of talks before bullets.

Despite ceremonial border personnel meetings (BPMs) at Nathu La in Sikkim and Bum La and Kibithu in Arunachal, Chinese troops continue to violate the LAC with brazen regularity.

According to Army sources, People's Liberation Army patrols have been sighted crossing over the LAC six times since January this year -- four times in Upper Subansiri district in June and July, and twice in Lohit district in January. A Chinese post continues to occupy Sumdorong Chu valley since 1986.

The situation has been worsened by the fact that the border is unguarded at some places in Arunachal Pradesh, mainly due to inhospitable terrain marked by high mountains and hostile weather throughout the year. At some locations there are no field units on either side. There is no deployment of Indian forces in at least one district, the backward Kurung Kumey (Tawang's neighbour).

Such forays by Chinese troops have left the population near the LAC insecure. "Chinese patrols encroached into my district in June and July,'' said Upper Subansiri deputy commissioner H G Shalla.

Western Arunachal Pradesh MP Takam Sanjay -- whose constituency has many areas where Chinese incursions have happened -- said the local people felt unsafe. "People of Arunachal do not want to face 1962 all over again,'' he said. He has taken up with the Centre the issue of securing the border. "It seems, somewhere we have lost involvement.''

Indian troops on the LAC have even sighted Chinese grazers and fishermen crossing over and pushed them back, say sources. Bhutan, too, faces the same problem. People from Tibet cross over in search of medicinal herbs.

According to Army sources, there is no PLA build-up across the border, but what worries the Indian top brass is the definite edge the Chinese have in terms of infrastructure, particularly road communication. Because of this, they can move reinforcements to the LAC at a short notice, which is difficult for India. In Asaphila, the last road on the Indian side ends 50 km away from the LAC.

Political leaders from Arunachal, like former MP Kiren Rijiju, have been vocal against the Indian policy of not developing infrastructure on the border for fear the Chinese would use them in case of a war. He has described this as a "defensive policy''. Sanjay, however, said that with prime minister Manmohan Singh granting Rs 24,000 crore to Arunachal for infrastructure development, the situation is set to change.

One of the most important projects is the construction of the trans-Arunachal highway, connecting Tawang with Changlang district. It is learnt that the Cabinet committee on infrastructure has given approval for bidding for two sections of this highway.
 

AJSINGH

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well if the war takes place both countries will be back at the stone age ( if no other country joins the war ) certainly Russia will be our side, and for China ,pakistan is pawn .because any pakistan is itching for war ,wants to get even after the 1965 AND 1971 war .
 

Yusuf

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No we will not be back to stone age. What makes you think that way? Nukes? China and India dont have the arsenel like the US to send each other to stone age. Both have a deterrent based arsenel. with about 200 nukes, China will not be able to send India down and vice versa.
 

AJSINGH

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No we will not be back to stone age. What makes you think that way? Nukes? China and India dont have the arsenel like the US to send each other to stone age. Both have a deterrent based arsenel. with about 200 nukes, China will not be able to send India down and vice versa.
will i did not mean literally but enough to destroy major cities and sattelities of country
 

Yusuf

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will i did not mean literally but enough to destroy major cities and sattelities of country
Both have NFU. India will have BMD, overwhelmed or otherwise. Why will both countries want to screw up there economic progress?
It will be another border war but this time with the use of all the conventional capability both sides have. That is IF there is a war.
 

arya

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pakistan i have solution for pakistan

Guys, Pakistan is in a better position than China to for using Air attack and cruise missiles against India. We can not over look Pakistan as their inventory is much smaller than China. because in a combined war against India Pakistani infrastructure will be used by the Chinese. We need to develop and introduce more systems like SPYDER or land version of Barak that can protect our strategic points and cities from such threat of enemy aircrafts and cruise missiles. India needs to be full offensive against pakistan from the very first hour to destroy their infrastuctures so that these can not be used by the Chinese later.
hi

sir you are right first we have handle Pakistan in a right way as we did in past every one know lots of trouble in Pakistan if you provide a little try in that area
we can divide Pakistan are you forgetting Baluchistan and other area
we love peace but some time peace come from action

jai hind
 

no smoking

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Nope, your country is really unbelievable. I mean which country stops an international bank to release funds for the betterment of land? Even if you want Tawang, it doesn't make sense to stop the ADB to release funds to India, so that it can develop Arunachal? What are you afraid of over there? If the people are developed, they will want people's rule and not the CCP rule?
Well, the veto of this loan is regarding nothing but land dispute. There is no economic reason involved. So your example is wrong.

Let me tell you why china has no reason to worry about indian economy in current stage: We are playing in different field. Both countries are undertaking different strategy: china is just following the traditional industrilization route while india is going through the service developing route. In next 20 years there is no reason to expect these 2 nations will get the strength in other's market.

By the way, if talking about economic competetion, forget about india, china has far more serious threat from South Korea, Japan, etc.
 

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