If India has to go for a two fronts war against China and Pakistan...

[LETHALFORCE]

The Pakistanis have an advantage here! They can use CMs with much success. Hence my concerns on this. We need to strengthen our defences against these threats.

pakistan has an advantage, very slight by firing the cruise missiles our radar should also be able to detect their position or where they were fired from, and respond, by placing cruise missiles on the sukhois we should be able to pick up their launches and respond with our cruise missile strikes with precision.

 

[ahmedsid]

AB, Cruise Missiles travel at Mach speeds, but none with pakistan of that Sort! Remember they got the Tomahawk equivalent, the Babur not a Brahmos equivalent. And Please, dont speculate simply without knowing what the other is talking about! I am talking about Baburs, which travel Below Mach (Prove me wrong, and I will agree)

 

[AkhandBharat]

LF, cruise missiles are guided and their path can be corrected mid flight. If China launches say 100 of these missiles, Indian fighter squadrons will be overwhelmed just keeping track of these missiles and trying to shoot them down one by one. With the limited number of A2A missiles that these fighters carry, it will be hard to shoot the supersonic cruise missiles which are guided mid-flight. It was okay to scramble fighters back in the days when they were supersonic and the missiles were not. But with the recent development of guided supersonic cruise missiles already in place and hypersonic cruise missiles in development, the fighters cannot and should not be scrambled to take out these missile barrages.

We need the missile shield in place and we need it fast. Air based radars like AWACS can be used to track them down and data can be passed on to the ABM system to hunt them. Fighters can be used to protect the AWACS systems but they cannot be used to hunt the cruise missiles anymore.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

AB - our missile shield is for ballistic missiles which are much more deadly than cruise missiles, fighter planes can intercept cruise missiles here's more on this topic

http://www.defenceforum.in/forum/bombs-missiles-wmd/937-defeating-cruise-missiles.html

http://www.defenceforum.in/forum/bo...issile-defense-capabilities-within-reach.html

http://www.defenceforum.in/forum/bombs-missiles-wmd/3766-laser-beam-weapons.html

 

[ahmedsid]

And AB, Fighter Jets dont take out Modern Cruise Missiles? So you say the Tomahawk cant be shot down by a fighter jet? Man, you are hilarious! The Americans dont operate Supersonic Cruise missiles as far as I know. The Tomahawk is their trump card in conflicts and it travels below mach! So its not modern enough for you Sir?

You mean to say, the Russians bluffed when they said the Mig31s can take out CMs like Tomahawk? How did you come to the conclusion that all modern CMs are supersonic?? And How did you conclude no fighet jet can take out CMs???

 

[AkhandBharat]

AB, Cruise Missiles travel at Mach speeds, but none with pakistan of that Sort! Remember they got the Tomahawk equivalent, the Babur not a Brahmos equivalent. And Please, dont speculate simply without knowing what the other is talking about! I am talking about Baburs, which travel Below Mach (Prove me wrong, and I will agree)

Ahmed, Remember, this thread talks of a two front war. Remember the other enemy in India's northeast. Be ready for whatever China has and you will be ready for pakistan automatically.

 

[Yusuf]

Akhand,
There is no known missile defence against the terrain hugging CMs. Also the enemy on the west don't have any large numbers of it to launch a barrage of it. Any launch can be detected by AWACs from the launch itself. And since they are subsonic, their flight time is more which gives enough time for India to scramble fighters to destroy it. We surely have more AAM than they have CMs.

 

[ahmedsid]

LF, cruise missiles are guided and their path can be corrected mid flight. If China launches say 100 of these missiles, Indian fighter squadrons will be overwhelmed just keeping track of these missiles and trying to shoot them down one by one. With the limited number of A2A missiles that these fighters carry, it will be hard to shoot the supersonic cruise missiles which are guided mid-flight. It was okay to scramble fighters back in the days when they were supersonic and the missiles were not. But with the recent development of guided supersonic cruise missiles already in place and hypersonic cruise missiles in development, the fighters cannot and should not be scrambled to take out these missile barrages.

We need the missile shield in place and we need it fast. Air based radars like AWACS can be used to track them down and data can be passed on to the ABM system to hunt them. Fighters can be used to protect the AWACS systems but they cannot be used to hunt the cruise missiles anymore.

Again the chinese terrain will prevent them from launching such a barrage as LF said.

Maybe in the future, IAF will raise a sqd of fighters equipeed with just AA missiles to take out such threats? Why Not?

Spread some knowledge on Supersonic CMs with China that travels beyong 300KM please. I genuinely am ignorant about it. Do they have a Land based Brahmos equivalent?

The Babur has 700km+ Range, the Raad too. They can be tackled I feel, and Pakistan is in no stage to make hundreds of these missiles coz its costly. Their trump card is the nuke factor.

 

[AkhandBharat]

LF, the missile shield is for BM why? because the re-entry speed of those missiles is a multiple of mach speeds. When cruise missiles fly at those speeds, we will have to shield ourselves against it too. And it will be difficult to counter these modern cruise missiles, because unlike BM they are terrain hugging and are guided. Also, they now have speeds greater than mach much like BM. So, they are now more deadly than BM. Their only disadvantage is they have short range. Which is the reason why China is building so many missile silos close to the Indian border in Tibet. The terrain will limit the cruise missile barrage from China but with the mid-flight correction, they can still send a good number of such cruise missiles on Indian borders. Only near the borders though. which is why we need to counter it with Anti-missile shield.

Heck, the US doesn't have an answer to Brahmos.
Unless the SR-71 blackbird's propulsion becomes a standard, fighters will be useless.

Akhand,
There is no known missile defence against the terrain hugging CMs. Also the enemy on the west don't have any large numbers of it to launch a barrage of it. Any launch can be detected by AWACs from the launch itself. And since they are subsonic, their flight time is more which gives enough time for India to scramble fighters to destroy it. We surely have more AAM than they have CMs.

I know read my response above. The missile shield will be a true missile shield, only if both BM and CM can be intercepted. To intercept supersonic CM, reaction time of the Missile Shield needs to be improved. As long as the speed of light remains the fastest and as long as the missiles travel slower than electromagnetic waves, Missile shield can be effective against cruise missiles. United States is more concerned about ABM because the threat to its territory is from BM based on its geoplitical position. Canada will not launch cruise missiles on the US and Mexico is in no position to. India doesn't have that luxury. This is a very real threat and we need to counter it.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

cruise missiles are usually a fire cracker next to ballistic missiles which are WMD. Using BMD against cruise missiles is not using our resources effectively, i would say almost all our warplanes can intercept all pakistani cruise missiles and my guess is pakistan does not have more than 200.

 

[ahmedsid]

cruise missiles are usually a fire cracker next to ballistic missiles which are WMD. Using BMD against cruise missiles is not using our resources effectively, i would say almost all our warplanes can intercept all pakistani cruise missiles and my guess is pakistan does not have more than 200.

My Guess is that the Pak dont have more than 100 Baburs. They are trying to make Raad work and get it inducted. Lack of resources preventing them from making much of these.

 

[Yusuf]

Ahmed,
interceptors like mig 21 carry only a variety of AAM. LCA too will be the same. AWACS are the key here. That can pick up the launch itself. If that is done, the rest is easy.

Also done expect that the Palistanis will rain CMs on our cities. It will be more as a tactical weapon. Any missile heading for a city can be taken for a nuke strike. That itself will keep them limited in use.

 

[ahmedsid]

Ahmed,
interceptors like mig 21 carry only a variety of AAM. LCA too will be the same. AWACS are the key here. That can pick up the launch itself. If that is done, the rest is easy.

Also done expect that the Palistanis will rain CMs on our cities. It will be more as a tactical weapon. Any missile heading for a city can be taken for a nuke strike. That itself will keep them limited in use.

I am talking of the Sukhois and MRCA Yusuf. Yes the AWACS will be the Key. They can tacke the CMs alongwith our Sams. Paks wont use CM against cities, they will use it against our air bases and other strategic points. The LCA will have a very potent Radar, which can pick up these CMs I am sure. They will be very useful. The Migs cant be discounted either, though I dont know how potent the Bison is against CMs. I am sure the Sukhois can take them out, if not all, a good percentage, the rest will be taken care of Sams.

I doubt even if they will use CMs against our bases, because it will draw heavy retaliation. They will try to keep the war at the low threshhold, and threaten to go nuke. That will be their tactic. I maybe wrong though.

 

[AkhandBharat]

cruise missiles are usually a fire cracker next to ballistic missiles which are WMD. Using BMD against cruise missiles is not using our resources effectively, i would say almost all our warplanes can intercept all pakistani cruise missiles and my guess is pakistan does not have more than 200.

It won't be a firecracker if tactical neutron bombs are mated with supersonic CM.

 

[ahmedsid]

It won't be a firecracker if tactical neutron bombs are mated with supersonic CM.

Okay there you go! For that case even a suitcase can be mated to be a tactical nuke and take out many lives!!! If Pak or China has to take out an Indian City, they will use BM, and not a CM. Its more devastating, especially when MIRVd!!! But yes, They can be nuke tipped CMs too, cant discount them.

The Cruise Missiles are a threat we must all wake upto, but we can defend against them, and I am sure in a few years we will be better equipped to do so than now.

And Please, give me some details about a Chinese Supersonic CM with more than 300 KMs, and is a Brahmos Equivalent, launched from Land.

Lastly, I read somewhere that more the payload on the Supersonic CM, the less accurate it becomes and the less range it will be able to travel. Someone should elaborate.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

It won't be a firecracker if tactical neutron bombs are mated with sueprsonic CM.

AB you are worrying to much
1) Pakistan cannot minitarize nukes
2) pakistan cannot fit a nuclear warhead on a cruise missile -much smaller that ballistic missiles
3) using a nuclear warhead on a cruise missile not be the smartest idea ;hard to control may land or get shot down in your own territory,fractional devastation of ballistic missiles.
4) pakistan is trying to go to a plutonium based nuclear arsenal and they are not close to having a neutron bomb.

China is who we should keep our focus on, while Pakistan will be more of a nuisance, chinese attempts to open a western front thru pakistan may also be limited since one mountaious road karokram highway connects the two countries and will probably destroyed early in a 2 front conflict. Also joint naval operations with USA would also be taking place in such a scenario something no one has discussed yet.

 

[AkhandBharat]

AB you are worrying to much
1) Pakistan cannot minitarize nukes
2) pakistan cannot fit a nuclear warhead on a cruise missile -much smaller that ballistic missiles
3) using a nuclear warhead on a cruise missile not be the smartest idea ;hard to control may land or get shot down in your own territory,fractional devastation of ballistic missiles.
4) pakistan is trying to go to a plutonium based nuclear arsenal and they are not close to having a neutron bomb.

China is who we should keep our focus on, while Pakistan will be more of a nuisance, chinese attempts to open a western front thru pakistan may also be limited since one mountaious road karokram highway connects the two countries and will probably destroyed early in a 2 front conflict. Also joint naval operations with USA would also be taking place in such a scenario something no one has discussed yet.

LF, I am not worrying about Pakistan. THey are at best a nuisance. All my posts have been China centric.


Here are the links to show that China has neutron bomb capability and we all know it has supersonic CMs.

The Cruise Missile and the Neutron Bomb: Some Moral Reflections

Popular Mechanics - Google Books Go to page 113.

China says it can build neutron bomb:

China Says It Can Build Neutron Bomb; Beijing Attempts to Discredit Cox Report on Theft of U.S. Secrets - The Washington Post | Encyclopedia.com
Requires subscription. You can get 7 days for free

 

[LETHALFORCE]

so can we

http://www.defenceforum.in/forum/bombs-missiles-wmd/824-neutron-bomb-capability-exists.html

so far no country has ben able to combine the two and if they ever do it will be less of an impact than putting it on a ballistic missile.

 

[AkhandBharat]

so can we

http://www.defenceforum.in/forum/bombs-missiles-wmd/824-neutron-bomb-capability-exists.html

so far no country has ben able to combine the two and if they ever do it will be less of an impact than putting it on a ballistic missile.

LF, India is already working on mating Tactical nuclear warhead to Brahmos.

BrahMos II Missile Faces New Test: DRDO Sources - Defense News

The threat is substantial, not to the civilian population (range limitation) but to the military. And in case of a war with China, the probability of China being the attacker is significantly higher and India will more likely be on the defensive. In this case, losing a significant chunk of its military to tactical nukes will mean overwhelming loss of land resources, which China is targeting in the first place. Moreover, the more higher ground we lose in the himalayas and the north east, the more water we will lose in the long run, as you know, china is already planning a peaceful nuclear detonation to divert the biggest tributary of brahmaputra. We need to maintain higher ground and for that, we need a defence shield against such usage of tactical nukes, if we are going for a defensive stance. Using Brahmos in retaliation will be done, but the damage to the IA will have been done already.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

we also have shauriya which can be nuclear flying at MACH 5 and greater range than BRAHMOS.

http://www.defenceforum.in/forum/bombs-missiles-wmd/827-india-tinkering-hypersonic-missiles-5.html