If India has to go for a two fronts war against China and Pakistan...

[sky]

America fought a two front war in WWII and was on the attack in both cases. So did the British.

but they were superpowers, and by the way britian ended up bankrupt,owing america money which took almost 60 years to pay back.i dont wont that for india.

 

[deltacamelately]

Can't speak for Pakistan but judging from the reaction on the NLI, I doubt the ruling party can stand that. Tianamen Square proved the days the CCP can lose 30,000 men in 30 days with nothing to show for it are long gone.

Sir,

The NLI factor was due to other reasons. The Paks were disowning them because of the fear of international critisism and subsequent penalties.
Incase of another war with India, their regime would not care less if the casualities are to the tune of 60K or 100K.

Also, though the Chinese mother's mindset may have changed in the last 2 decades, the PLA's doctine won't have changed much. A domestic strife killing Chinese citizens is not comparable with KIA against a declared enemy.

 

[Sabir]

If the worst thing really happens...a two front war......India need to neutralise the weaker of the two in a very short time. Any suggestion how India should prepare in next 10 years.......................one should prepare for the worst while hoping the best.

 

[johnq]

The main problem with Indian military is the lack of pro-active defence. This has been the consistent problem in most Indian conflicts (other than 1971). In Aksai Chin, we waited until the Chinese came and occupied the territory, and even then it took 2 years for our military to discover the Chinese takeover.

In Kargil also, we waited until the Pakistani military took over crucial military posts, and then took action.

Usually in war it costs a lot more lives to remove the enemy after it has already taken control of territory and set up military infrastructure. It is easier to combat the enemy while they are trying to march onto your territory.

We are still repeating this mistake in Arunachal Pradesh. We should not be allowing even a single Chinese soldier to intrude into the state. Instead there are a lot of Chinese intrusions every year that don't even get reported.
I wouldn't be surprised if the Chinese already have established military infrastructure in unmonitored back areas in Arunachal Pradesh and even parts of Assam. I suspected it when an Indian military AN-32 crashed in Assam, because the local villagers reported seeing the plane explode in mid-air, like it had been shot down by a missile.

Check the following article: Indian Air Force | AN-32 | Assam | Shillong | Indian Army | Plane Crash | Flight Lieutenant Varun Kumar - Oneindia News


AN-32 crash: IAF release names of dead

Guwahati, Jun 11: The Indian Air Force on Thursday, Jun 11 released the name all the 13 members on board crashed IAF aircraft, AN-32. Meanwhile, two villagers claimed they had seen the plane exploding in mid-air.The IAF Eastern Command in Shillong released the names of seven IAF crew members and six Army personnel who died in the mishap: Wing Commander Gitesh Jit Singh Butalia, Wing Commander P K Saji, Squadron Leader P Siddharth, Squadron Leader Manash Mishra, Flight Lieutenant Varun Kumar, Master Warrant Officer Ramesh, Aircraft Attendant Sanjay Kumar, Gunners V Singh, K Kumar, S Kumar, Naik B S Nanwhegh, Sepoy A K Tirkey and Radio Mechanic R Wangchuk.


AN-32 was being captained by Wing Commander 'Boots' Butalia (36), an experienced transport pilot based in Jorhat. He is survived by wife Vaishali and twin boys who turned seven recently.

Among the dead was Varun Kumar, a young officer, who was on his first posting. He celebrated his 24th birthday in May. Flight Lieutenant Varun Kumar, who graduated recently from the pilot training school, hailed from Haryana. The only child of his parents, he had been awarded a commendation for 'outstanding performance and devotion to duty' by the Chief of Air Staff.

 

[p2prada]

America fought a two front war in WWII and was on the attack in both cases. So did the British.

India has fought a two front war under the British too. Facing the Japanese in Burma and the Germans and Italians in Africa and Europe. Not to mention invading the middle east.

 

[p2prada]

@johnq

There are many reasons why a plane can explode mid-air and none of them involves the enemy

 

[Antimony]

India has fought a two front war under the British too. Facing the Japanese in Burma and the Germans and Italians in Africa and Europe. Not to mention invading the middle east.

P2P,

That was Indian forces under British command though. The territorial integrity of the nation (or more accurately the colony) was under attack only from one front, the one in the NE

 

[Antimony]

Reply to JohnQ

The main problem with Indian military is the lack of pro-active defence. This has been the consistent problem in most Indian conflicts (other than 1971).

The 1984 operation to take Siachen was one.

In Aksai Chin, we waited until the Chinese came and occupied the territory, and even then it took 2 years for our military to discover the Chinese takeover.

In Kargil also, we waited until the Pakistani military took over crucial military posts, and then took action.

In both 1962 and Kargil, the enemy ame in when our troops were not actively manning the borders, which I guess is a logistical challenge in territory like that. In both cases, the intention of the eneny was to harrass rather than invade. Note that on both casesm, they did not build enough supply lines for a long stay.

Usually in war it costs a lot more lives to remove the enemy after it has already taken control of territory and set up military infrastructure. It is easier to combat the enemy while they are trying to march onto your territory.

We are still repeating this mistake in Arunachal Pradesh. We should not be allowing even a single Chinese soldier to intrude into the state. Instead there are a lot of Chinese intrusions every year that don't even get reported.

As has been explained elsewhere on this forum (and that message keeps getting lost), there haven't been any instance of the PLA and IA troops coming into contact. Instead they play a cat and muse game. One group comes and moves the border markers and leave, another groups come and move them elsewhere.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Chinese already have established military infrastructure in unmonitored back areas in Arunachal Pradesh and even parts of Assam.

And what supply lines would they use? Their supply lines would still have to go through the border.

I agree that border patrolling can be more vigorous and please note that 2 more divisions (25000 to 30000 troops) are being raised for that part of the country. But I am not sure what else you are trying to say.

 

[johnq]

The 1984 operation to take Siachen was one.
In both 1962 and Kargil, the enemy ame in when our troops were not actively manning the borders, which I guess is a logistical challenge in territory like that. In both cases, the intention of the eneny was to harrass rather than invade. Note that on both casesm, they did not build enough supply lines for a long stay.

As has been explained elsewhere on this forum (and that message keeps getting lost), there haven't been any instance of the PLA and IA troops coming into contact. Instead they play a cat and muse game. One group comes and moves the border markers and leave, another groups come and move them elsewhere.

And what supply lines would they use? Their supply lines would still have to go through the border.

I agree that border patrolling can be more vigorous and please note that 2 more divisions (25000 to 30000 troops) are being raised for that part of the country. But I am not sure what else you are trying to say.

Point 1: The point I was making was that in Kargil and in 1962, the troops should've been manning the borders at all times. If the Chinese could do it in Aksai Chin, so could we. But that was Nehru's mistake. Of course this has to do with the larger picture of the lack of equipment, infrastructure, support, but it's a problem nonetheless.

Point 2: About PLA, Indian Army cat-mouse game, that's the limited picture that we see through the Indian media. Here's the fact: Indian army is not really allowed by Indian govt. to even engage PLA, due to the agreement between India and China, which China has used to its advantage. The original agreement was to keep a certain distance (a km or more) away from LAC. India followed this agreement to the letter, while China kept building infrastructure closer and closer to the Indian military posts. When questioned, Chinese excuse was that in their opinion the LAC is much deeper into Arunachal. So now China has pushed in and created military infrastructure on Indian side of McMahon line (over 1 km deep into India in several places). At the same time, India has not upgraded its infrastructure in Arunachal much because of fear of it being used by enemy in case of war. So now there is an enormous difference in military infrastructure between India and China, with China having a considerable advantage. The govt has woken up late to this fact and are trying to catch up now (you must've read about the loan which China tried to block which was for this purpose). It's a sad reality when Indian Army has to form human chains to block Chinese vehicles and tractors from building military infrastructure further into India, even around Indian military posts.

The Indian Army keeps saying that Chinese intrusions are because of difference of opinion of LAC, but the fact is that what China calls Indian intrusions are just Indian soldiers wandering on Indian side of McMahon line being detained by Chinese; at no time have any Indian soldiers ever dared to venture beyond McMahon line. The Chinese intrusions on the other hand are even deeper into Arunachal beyond McMahon line (since Chinese already have military bases on Indian side of McMahon line).

Point 3: About supply lines, other than having built military infrastructure deeper into India, the Chinese may have also built tunnels that we don't know about. In any case, Chinese soldiers intruding deeper into Arunachal can lead to other dangerous situations like them supplying weapons to undercover agent cells, etc. They themselves don't have to fire stinger missiles at IAF aircraft; undercover people on Chinese payroll can do it too, after Chinese soldiers supply the weapons to them. That's why I am suspicious about the Indian AN-32 blowing up in mid-air (in Assam this summer), that I mentioned in my last post.

Point 4: Yes, finally the government has woken up and is raising further divisions, but they are still reactive in this case, not proactive; since they are doing it in reaction to Chinese military intrusions and heavy Chinese military infrastructure on Indian side of the McMahon line. What they should've done (or started doing few decades ago) is build heavy military infrastructure as close to McMahon line border as possible, instead of taking the word of the Chinese on some border agreement which the Chinese didn't eventually follow anyways. This way at least, the Chinese would not have had as deep a military presence in Arunachal as they do now. The fact is that Chinese have been taking control over more and more Indian territory in Arunachal Pradesh, Ladakh and elsewhere, while the netas in Delhi have been sleeping after signing peace agreements with China.

Anyhow, you were right about Indian army being pro-active in Siachen. But Indian government has been anything but pro-active against China, keeping peace at all costs (even at the cost of Chinese military presence deeper into India). It's as if after 1962 defeat, the netas have gotten scared of China to the point of inaction, and turning a blind eye to all Chinese activity on the border.

Had it been Pakistan instead of China, the politicans would not have allowed them to intrude so deeply into India (to the point of having military bases on Indian side), while using some peace agreement as cover. But the sad reality is that the netas only know how to fight Pakistan, and don't really have the willpower to fight China. If the netas had more faith and provided adequate funding, weapons and military infrastructure to Indian army in Arunachal, Ladakh, and elsewhere, we would not be having this discussion right now; and the Chinese would not have dared to intrude into India.

JMT

 

[Antimony]

Point 1: The point I was making was that in Kargil and in 1962, the troops should've been manning the borders at all times. If the Chinese could do it in Aksai Chin, so could we. But that was Nehru's mistake. Of course this has to do with the larger picture of the lack of equipment, infrastructure, support, but it's a problem nonetheless.

As with elsewhere in this region, I think the terrain makes it difficult to maintain a constant viigl. The Chinese do not manage to do it either. As far as I recall, after AK Anthony visited this place a few years back, he ordered a massive upgrade of the infrastructure. There are also going to be 2 new divisions for this area

Point 2: About PLA, Indian Army cat-mouse game, that's the limited picture that we see through the Indian media. Here's the fact: Indian army is not really allowed by Indian govt. to even engage PLA, due to the agreement between India and China, which China has used to its advantage. The original agreement was to keep a certain distance (a km or more) away from LAC. India followed this agreement to the letter, while China kept building infrastructure closer and closer to the Indian military posts. When questioned, Chinese excuse was that in their opinion the LAC is much deeper into Arunachal. So now China has pushed in and created military infrastructure on Indian side of McMahon line (over 1 km deep into India in several places). At the same time, India has not upgraded its infrastructure in Arunachal much because of fear of it being used by enemy in case of war. So now there is an enormous difference in military infrastructure between India and China, with China having a considerable advantage. The govt has woken up late to this fact and are trying to catch up now (you must've read about the loan which China tried to block which was for this purpose). It's a sad reality when Indian Army has to form human chains to block Chinese vehicles and tractors from building military infrastructure further into India, even around Indian military posts.

The Indian Army keeps saying that Chinese intrusions are because of difference of opinion of LAC, but the fact is that what China calls Indian intrusions are just Indian soldiers wandering on Indian side of McMahon line being detained by Chinese; at no time have any Indian soldiers ever dared to venture beyond McMahon line. The Chinese intrusions on the other hand are even deeper into Arunachal beyond McMahon line (since Chinese already have military bases on Indian side of McMahon line).

Point 3: About supply lines, other than having built military infrastructure deeper into India, the Chinese may have also built tunnels that we don't know about. In any case, Chinese soldiers intruding deeper into Arunachal can lead to other dangerous situations like them supplying weapons to undercover agent cells, etc. They themselves don't have to fire stinger missiles at IAF aircraft; undercover people on Chinese payroll can do it too, after Chinese soldiers supply the weapons to them. That's why I am suspicious about the Indian AN-32 blowing up in mid-air (in Assam this summer), that I mentioned in my last post.

Point 4: Yes, finally the government has woken up and is raising further divisions, but they are still reactive in this case, not proactive; since they are doing it in reaction to Chinese military intrusions and heavy Chinese military infrastructure on Indian side of the McMahon line. What they should've done (or started doing few decades ago) is build heavy military infrastructure as close to McMahon line border as possible, instead of taking the word of the Chinese on some border agreement which the Chinese didn't eventually follow anyways. This way at least, the Chinese would not have had as deep a military presence in Arunachal as they do now. The fact is that Chinese have been taking control over more and more Indian territory in Arunachal Pradesh, Ladakh and elsewhere, while the netas in Delhi have been sleeping after signing peace agreements with China.

Anyhow, you were right about Indian army being pro-active in Siachen. But Indian government has been anything but pro-active against China, keeping peace at all costs (even at the cost of Chinese military presence deeper into India). It's as if after 1962 defeat, the netas have gotten scared of China to the point of inaction, and turning a blind eye to all Chinese activity on the border.

As far as I can understand, there is a difference of opinion between the Army and the IB itself. The army actually thinks the LAC is south of what IB is interpreting.

About military bases on the India side, if true that is indeed a concern. I could not find any stories about this though. Do you have a source I can refer to?

By the way, about 1962, there was no military difference between the 1962 Indo-China war (victory for China) and the 1979 Sino-Vietnam war (defear of China). Our "defeat" was one of Chinese PR over Indian PR, not a military defeat for India. At least that is what the pros say.

 

[johnq]

As far as I can understand, there is a difference of opinion between the Army and the IB itself. The army actually thinks the LAC is south of what IB is interpreting.

About military bases on the India side, if true that is indeed a concern. I could not find any stories about this though. Do you have a source I can refer to?

By the way, about 1962, there was no military difference between the 1962 Indo-China war (victory for China) and the 1979 Sino-Vietnam war (defear of China). Our "defeat" was one of Chinese PR over Indian PR, not a military defeat for India. At least that is what the pros say.

You will not find anything in the public domain that explicitly states that China has bases on Indian side. But, if you look at the McMahon line on a map, and then compare it to the positions of Indian and Chinese military posts/bases/infrastructure, you will see that the Chinese are south of the McMahon line. I haven't checked it out on google maps, but I will try to find something.

About the 1962 war result, you are right. Militarily the Chinese positions and Indian positions were identical before and after the war, so it was not a victory for China in spite of the overwhelming disadvantages faced by the Indian soldiers (this is a testament to the courage of the Indian soldier). Unfortunately, the PR seems to have "worked," in that it affected the political will of Indian netas to deal with China effectively, both militarily and politically. Otherwise we would've taken Aksai Chin back by force by now, instead of putting up with Chinese intrusions.

 

[Antimony]

About the 1962 war result, you are right. Militarily the Chinese positions and Indian positions were identical before and after the war, so it was not a victory for China in spite of the overwhelming disadvantages faced by the Indian soldiers (this is a testament to the courage of the Indian soldier). Unfortunately, the PR seems to have "worked," in that it affected the political will of Indian netas to deal with China effectively, both militarily and politically. Otherwise we would've taken Aksai Chin back by force by now, instead of putting up with Chinese intrusions.

for a nation with a fairly powerful military, we do play the victim quite often. Anyway, I am not totally disappointed the way the PR war turned out. Though it was a blow to the ego, the IA did manage to get a number of important reforms based on that "defeat"

 

[WaleedGilani]

Assume it's year 2020. China and India ready to face each other and Pakistan has Joined their old alley. How India should counter enemies simultaneusly..what should be the proper strategy?

Dont say, You dont want a war. Wars are started by the politicians and fought by the soldiers. Suggest what would be your strategy if you are the decision maker.

(chosen 2020 as by the time military modernization programme of both China and India will be near completion. So take care of future inductions too, but logically)

look dude , listen to me very carefully ...im a pakistani . Now to answere your question...i have to tell you this...God forbids ...but if india and china EVER had a war ......remember this ....mark my words thats world war 3 and nothing else but totall distruction of world ....i will explain why(i know you are probably laughing at me) India and China both posses very strong military powers...and both are nuclear states aswell....if the war started we all know Pakistan will casually join..its a third nuclear state...now Israel joins to help India ....what happens next is Iran joins aswell ....THATS WO MORE NUCLEAR STATES ....no the EGYPT SAUDI ARABIA JORDAN SYRIA TURKEY...........DO YOU THINK THE WORLD WILL STAND ALL THIS??? we will melt atlantic and gain nothing................................................................................................................................................

 

[Vinod2070]

^^ China will not join an Indo-Pak war. Nor would any other Muslim country. You have the history behind you that confirms this.

Pakistan may possibly foolishly join an Indo-China war. That scenario is highly unlikely as no country has anything to gain and we both have much to lose.

 

[Sabir]

look dude , listen to me very carefully ...im a pakistani . Now to answere your question...i have to tell you this...God forbids ...but if india and china EVER had a war ......remember this ....mark my words thats world war 3 and nothing else but totall distruction of world ....i will explain why(i know you are probably laughing at me) India and China both posses very strong military powers...and both are nuclear states aswell....if the war started we all know Pakistan will casually join..its a third nuclear state...now Israel joins to help India ....what happens next is Iran joins aswell ....THATS WO MORE NUCLEAR STATES ....no the EGYPT SAUDI ARABIA JORDAN SYRIA TURKEY...........DO YOU THINK THE WORLD WILL STAND ALL THIS??? we will melt atlantic and gain nothing................................................................................................................................................

Dear I dont think there would be any chain reaction like this...and even India -china war would hardly has any chance to become a nuclear one. In my opinion India-Pakistan war has the most possibility to become more destructive one (specially in an situation I mentioned in the thread as India will become desperate to get rid of her weaker oppponent first). Now you dont want a war , nor I. But neighther your politicians bother what you think nor our politicians bother about my opinion. Kashmir,indus water all issues are ######....main problem both of us are too much egoistic to be considered defeated by the other.......What is there in Kashmir we would have fought over a shit-hole also.

 

[Antimony]

look dude , listen to me very carefully ...im a pakistani . Now to answere your question...i have to tell you this...God forbids ...but if india and china EVER had a war ......remember this ....mark my words thats world war 3 and nothing else but totall distruction of world ....i will explain why(i know you are probably laughing at me) India and China both posses very strong military powers...and both are nuclear states aswell....if the war started we all know Pakistan will casually join..its a third nuclear state...now Israel joins to help India ....what happens next is Iran joins aswell ....THATS WO MORE NUCLEAR STATES ....no the EGYPT SAUDI ARABIA JORDAN SYRIA TURKEY...........DO YOU THINK THE WORLD WILL STAND ALL THIS??? we will melt atlantic and gain nothing................................................................................................................................................

After listening to you carefully, I observed that your keboard probably has a defective CAPS LOCK Key

Other observations

1. It would be a bloody pissing contest over a bunch of rosk, with no clear military victory, but a PR victory depending on who has the better spin doctor
2. The terrain itself will limit the amount and type of forces in play, hence point 1
3. India is not going to move troops away from the Pak border in case of a war with China. Our Corps on that border would be enough to neutralise the Pak Mangla and Multan Corps, though may not be enough for a decisive victory
4. China will think twice before moving some of her best troops, which are not in the military regions bordering Indian and China, but face Taiwa and Russia. Hence, point 1
5. Nuclear strikes: Both India and China have an NFU. so unless Pakistan does something fishy, don't think anukle exchange will come in. China anyway has Russia to think about before launching a nuke. Now why Pakistan would launch a nuke for China's sake is beyond me but maybe you can explain

 

[Antimony]

China will not join an Indo-Pak war. Nor would any other Muslim country. You have the history behind you that confirms this.

If China does join an Indo-Pak war, she has effectively denied Pakistan the right to go nuclear

 

[Soham]

look dude , listen to me very carefully ...im a pakistani . Now to answere your question...i have to tell you this...God forbids ...but if india and china EVER had a war ......remember this ....mark my words thats world war 3 and nothing else but totall distruction of world ....i will explain why(i know you are probably laughing at me) India and China both posses very strong military powers...and both are nuclear states aswell....if the war started we all know Pakistan will casually join..its a third nuclear state...now Israel joins to help India ....what happens next is Iran joins aswell ....THATS WO MORE NUCLEAR STATES ....no the EGYPT SAUDI ARABIA JORDAN SYRIA TURKEY...........DO YOU THINK THE WORLD WILL STAND ALL THIS??? we will melt atlantic and gain nothing................................................................................................................................................

Let me give you a hint. Whatever you posted is just what's not going to happen.
Countries have better things to do than join wars "casually".

After listening to you carefully, I observed that your keboard probably has a defective CAPS LOCK Key

 

[deltacamelately]

look dude , listen to me very carefully ...im a pakistani .....................................

No, you are a mere conspiracistani.
Stop deluding yourself.

 

[Yusuf]

look dude , listen to me very carefully ...im a pakistani . Now to answere your question...i have to tell you this...God forbids ...but if india and china EVER had a war ......remember this ....mark my words thats world war 3 and nothing else but totall distruction of world ....i will explain why(i know you are probably laughing at me) India and China both posses very strong military powers...and both are nuclear states aswell....if the war started we all know Pakistan will casually join..its a third nuclear state...now Israel joins to help India ....what happens next is Iran joins aswell ....THATS WO MORE NUCLEAR STATES ....no the EGYPT SAUDI ARABIA JORDAN SYRIA TURKEY...........DO YOU THINK THE WORLD WILL STAND ALL THIS??? we will melt atlantic and gain nothing.

First read the forum rules regarding posting manners.
Second, get a lesson in military matters by just reading the various posts by military pros who have discussed Indo China war scenarios in several threads here and then come back to post on military matters. Till then, keep the absurd thoughts to yourself and dont drag down the quality of this forum.