If India has to go for a two fronts war against China and Pakistan...

IBRIS

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I've read what you require, sir.

What about the SLBMs. Are they also unmated? Are they controlled by the navy?
Chinese SLBM failed. :cray:The launch failure investigation began in January 1995 immediately following the failed launch of the Chinese LM-2E space launch vehicle (SLV) with the Hughes Space and Communications (HSC) designed APSTAR II communications satellite payload onboard. The investigation involved the formation of several groups of technical experts by both the Chinese and Hughes. Additionally, both parties contracted an independent investigation team of private consultants and space industry experts. Throughout the course of the investigation, Chinese and Hughes personnel engaged in an extensive exchange of technical data and analyses.
 

p2prada

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If and when the Moscow bunker opens up to the public, I will have an answer. The Russians are known for their brute force approach to engineering and scientific problems. At the minimum, I expect all their electronics to be grounded down the ying-yang and water to surround their entire complex. Oh, want to know why we gave up on neutron weapons? The Russians just put swimming pools over and around their bunkers.

As per your quote, Moscow, the city would be gone, but Moscow, the Command Centre, would be very much around ... if they have an answer for the EMP problem.
Sir, how does a swimming pool protect against radiation, even if neutrons can be stopped.

Can we build a Command center under a lake or a dam instead of building pools over it?
 

hbogyt

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Sir, how does a swimming pool protect against radiation, even if neutrons can be stopped.

Can we build a Command center under a lake or a dam instead of building pools over it?
Neutron is the most penetrating radiatiation after gamma rays, I think. Gamma rays can be stopped by 25 metres thick water. That's how they store cobalt.
 

Officer of Engineers

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I've read what you require, sir.

What about the SLBMs. Are they also unmated? Are they controlled by the navy?
Ok, you are a member of CDF. You have ALL OUR RESEARCH. Our research, all open source, tells you that Chinese SSBNs do not go on patrol with SLBMs ... and hence, with nukes on board. What that means, I don't know. Whether the technology is mature enough ... or the CMC will only release the SLBM/Nukes on crisis point is something that we have to watch.

Chinese SLBM failed.
Get real! The JL-2 got more success than than AGNI-II.

Sir, how does a swimming pool protect against radiation, even if neutrons can be stopped.
Life on earth would answer your question.

Can we build a Command center under a lake or a dam instead of building pools over it?
If you know the direction of the blast ... and you do, a pool is cheaper.
 

hbogyt

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Ok, you are a member of CDF. You have ALL OUR RESEARCH. Our research, all open source, tells you that Chinese SSBNs do not go on patrol with SLBMs ... and hence, with nukes on board. What that means, I don't know. Whether the technology is mature enough ... or the CMC will only release the SLBM/Nukes on crisis point is something that we have to watch.

Get real! The JL-2 got more success than than AGNI-II.

Life on earth would answer your question.

If you know the direction of the blast ... and you do, a pool is cheaper.
Time to tell me why 200 is the optimum number.
 

Yusuf

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OoE,
you said the Chinese SSBNs font go on patrol with SLBMs. Then that beats the very purpose of making them. They are investing heavily into it. If they don't carry SLBMs, it doesn't have a credible second strike option if in a major war, say with the US who could launch a crippling first strike.
 

Sabir

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Friends China and India are not going to nuke each other. If India has any nuke threat that's from Pakistan..(defeated conventionally who might opt for nuke as they wont hv anything to loss anymore). You can make a proper strategy you must anticipate the move of your opponents. So tell us how should India proceed to make Pakistan incapable of Nuke attack. Dont deviate from the thread topic.
 

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I'm not sure. To be frank, I'm not sure how well either doctrine works. Cold Start and WZC are both micro examples of the American Field Manual 3.0 Operations. Other than the Brigadier Ray and myself, I don't think anyone here has bothered to read that.

Both Cold Start and WZC expect actions to be fast, bold, and decisive. In other words, neither doctrine expects total war. This is in complete contrast to the US FM3.0 Ops (and the associating ABCA manuals) which adheres to total war in which the OPOBJs is to render the enemy incapble of responding in any shape or fashion, ie I've already surrounded your army and kicking down your bathroom door while you're taking a crap. Both CS and WZC by contrast is knocking down your fence on your garden and running away before you catch me ... or me sh!tting on your flower bed and leaving it for you to clean up.

Let me ask you this. Would you consider it a victory if you lose 30,000 men but the Chinese ran away before your 100,000 men could avenge the loss?
Thank You, Sir. That was a great explanation with some good analogies.:wink:
But I was wondering whether Cold Start applies to confrontation with China. AFAIK, Cold Start doctrine was implemented after slow mobilization of Operation Parakram(which was directed towards Pakistan). So, Cold Start, correct me if I am wrong, is only directed towards Pakistan. Not to say that those strategies would not be used in a conflict against China. But it is mostly a Pakistan specific doctrine.
So, if and when India and China are in a conflict, I am sure, the doctrine will be an advanced version of CS(which may be enough to deny China any tangible(land) gains with reasonable(personnel) losses on India's side).
 

deltacamelately

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Major, right now, I don't think the 15ABC is capable of more than 10 simultaneous company level actions....
Sir,

Of what I've read, one of the Corps three divisions, (the 43rd, 44th and 45th airborne divisions) can deploy to any part of China within 48 hours. In the late 90s the airlift capability of the PLAAF consisted of 10 IL-76 heavy lift, Yu-8, and Yu-7 transports, as well as Mi-17, Mi-8, S-70C, Z-8, and Z-9 helicopters. Thus, the PLAAF could effectively lift only one division of 11K men with light tanks and SP artillery. But that was in the 90s and I wouldn't plan any move based on such redundant data.
 

Ray

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It is interesting to note that a Division can move anywhere within 48 hours!

What is it for a US Division?
 

deltacamelately

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Delta,

The Chinese can do nothing in the Siliguri corridor.

I won't mention more, but study the map and the deployment!
Sir,

I fully understand your point. I was asserting on the criticality of the area and the chances the PRC can use to pile-up pressure with the ISI's active support in times of war or war like times . This area has been earlier used as a springboard to foment trouble in the entire NE. The ISI was supplying a large quantity of arms and ammunition to the various NE terrorist outfits from the stockpiles of the Khmer Rouge of Cambodia after its defeat. These were picked up from the markets of Thailand and were transported to Cox's Bazaar in Bangladesh, eventually to be used on the Indian soil against Indian interests. The arms were shipped from Thai ports to Cox's Bazaar and were then carried on headloads for rest of the way. The recipients were NSCN(IM), ULFA and Bodo groups. In war times, such a vital corridor with geographical proximity to 5 nation states and a faultline ranging between 20-100kms doesn't spells confidence.
 

deltacamelately

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It is interesting to note that a Division can move anywhere within 48 hours!

What is it for a US Division?
Sir,

Of whatever I have read, the 15th ABC role is similar to that of the U.S. Army’s 82nd Airborne Division. The 82nd Airborne Division's mission ability is to begin executing a strategic airborne forcible entry into any area of the world within 18 hours of notification. Their primary mission is airfield and seaport seizure. Once on the ground, they provide the secured terrain and facilities to rapidly receive additional combat forces. The Division is America's strategic offensive force, maintaining the highest state of combat readiness. As the largest Aiirborne force in the world, the 82nd Airborne Division is trained to deploy anywhere, at any time, to fight upon arrival and to win. From cook to computer operator, from infantryman or engineer, every soldier in the 82nd is airborne qualified. Almost every piece of divisional combat equipment can be air dropped onto the battlefield.
 

p2prada

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Sir,

Of whatever I have read, the 15th ABC role is similar to that of the U.S. Army’s 82nd Airborne Division. The 82nd Airborne Division's mission ability is to begin executing a strategic airborne forcible entry into any area of the world within 18 hours of notification. Their primary mission is airfield and seaport seizure. Once on the ground, they provide the secured terrain and facilities to rapidly receive additional combat forces. The Division is America's strategic offensive force, maintaining the highest state of combat readiness. As the largest Aiirborne force in the world, the 82nd Airborne Division is trained to deploy anywhere, at any time, to fight upon arrival and to win. From cook to computer operator, from infantryman or engineer, every soldier in the 82nd is airborne qualified. Almost every piece of divisional combat equipment can be air dropped onto the battlefield.
And then there is the 101st Airborne Division.
 

Daredevil

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Does India have an Air borne corps/division??. Is there any need for such in case of India?.
 

p2prada

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May I ask what is the capability of IA's Parachute regiment compared to an American and more importantly a Chinese equivalent?
 

Ray

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Sir,

Of whatever I have read, the 15th ABC role is similar to that of the U.S. Army’s 82nd Airborne Division. The 82nd Airborne Division's mission ability is to begin executing a strategic airborne forcible entry into any area of the world within 18 hours of notification. Their primary mission is airfield and seaport seizure. Once on the ground, they provide the secured terrain and facilities to rapidly receive additional combat forces. The Division is America's strategic offensive force, maintaining the highest state of combat readiness. As the largest Aiirborne force in the world, the 82nd Airborne Division is trained to deploy anywhere, at any time, to fight upon arrival and to win. From cook to computer operator, from infantryman or engineer, every soldier in the 82nd is airborne qualified. Almost every piece of divisional combat equipment can be air dropped onto the battlefield.
All airborne operation aim at capturing an airhead by parachuting troops who seize the airhead and then the airlanded operation begins. Once the requisite number of troops and equipment has been mustered, the actual operation begins.

The Chinese, as per my information,have the military airlift capability of the PLAAF of 10 IL 76, heavy lift Yu 8 and Yu 7 transport. Of course, they also have adequate commercial aircraft i.e. about 500 Boeings and Airbuses and I believe there has been acquisition of US military transport aircraft, though I am not aware of the exact number. They have 200 transport helicopters.

The Airborne Corps consists of 43rd Brigade located at Kaifeng in the Henan Province under the Jinan Military Region. The 44th and 45th are located at Yingshan in the Hubei Province and under the Guangzhaou Military Region.

They are equipped with BMD 2 Air Combat Vehicles, SP Artillery, RCL guns, 82 mm Mortars and such like. I am not too sure about tanks. I believe they have ELINT capability.

Be that as it may, AB operations of this magnitude would require air superiority and a favourable air situation would not be adequate. As you are aware, success in combat and combat support hinges on air superiority and threat avoidance. A very accurate and timely intelligence regarding threats along the ingress and egress routes and over the target area is but essential since the operation is to be behind the enemy lines and will be vulnerable till link up is made or resupply is assured. Once delivered to the target area, the inserted force will be totally dependent upon subsequent airlift operations for sustainment, movement, withdrawal, or redeployment.

Large operations require neutralisation or suppression of enemy air defences. This will require SEAD, radar jamming, and fighter aircraft in addition to transport and CAS sorties. After the initial airdrop, the sustained combat power of airborne forces depends on resupply by air. Any interruption in the flow of resupply aircraft can cause a potential weakening of the airborne force. Enemy air defence fires against resupply aircraft and long-range artillery and mortar fires on the DZ can hamper the delivery, collection, or distribution of critical supplies. Once on the ground, the airborne force has limited tactical mobility. That mobility depends on the number and type of vehicles and helicopters that can be brought into the objective area.

Another important aspect of combat employment and sustainment is the concept of forcible entry. In performing this mission, airlift forces are usually matched with airborne, air assault, light infantry, or ranger forces specifically designed for delivery by air. This mission normally involves the insertion of airborne forces via airdrop; however, carefully planned airlanded assault operations can be equally effective.

Airborne forces execute parachute assaults to destroy the enemy and to seize and hold important objectives until linkup is accomplished. The parachute assault enhances the basic infantry combat mission: to close with the enemy by fire and manoeuvre, to destroy or capture him, and to repel his assaults by fire, close combat, and counterattack.

However, there are five disadvantages with airdrop. First, and probably the largest concern, is the condition in which the cargo and supplies will land. Next, the cargo may not arrive at the desired location because of many possible variables, including enemy interdiction, a parachute malfunction, or a possible disruption or malfunction of the GPS signal. For example, US forces destroyed six Iraqi devices designed to jam signals from the GPS satellite navigation and weapon-guidance system. Third, retrograde of unserviceables is not possible. Fourth, the amount of cargo that can be delivered is reduced because of the configuration required to prepare the load to be dropped. And finally, the items must be dropped well in advance to allow support personnel to retrieve and deliver the cargo to the customer at the required date and time.

Therefore, while it appears a very potent concept, it is not that easily deliverable, especially when the adversary is capable of interdicting and not a push over.

One might recall that only seven jumps were conducted following the end of World War II. The airborne operations in Panama in 1989 were the only instance since 1951 of Brigade-sized operations. Two brigade airdrops were conducted with good results during the Korean War, and there were three battalion-sized airdrops in Vietnam. In 1983 a Ranger battalion conducted a combat airdrop into Grenada, and in 1989 two Ranger battalions conducted combat airdrops into Panama. On 20 December 1989 the three battalions of the Division Ready Brigade of the 82nd Airborne Division conducted a combat airdrop into Panama, the first 82nd combat jump since Operation MARKET-GARDEN in September 1944. Brigade-sized airdrops were planned for the Dominican Republic in 1965 and Haiti in 1994, but in both cases the airdrops were cancelled shortly before they were scheduled to begin. A Ranger battalion conducted a combat jump in October 2001 in southern Afghanistan. Parachute operations by smaller units are far more common, but almost impossible to document, particularly since most are clandestine Special Operations activities.

The 26 March 2003 jump by the 173rd Airborne Brigade into Northern Iraq was advertised as "the largest airborne assault since D-Day" but that was manifestly untrue. Operation MARKET, which followed D-Day, was larger than the Normandy assault, and operations in Korea and Panama were larger than the 2003 airdrop. In early 2004 the 26 March 2003 jump was classified as a combat jump, even though the Kurdish controlled drop zone was in friendly hands and little resistance was anticipated.

It may be noted that the AB operations that I have mentioned were mostly against nonexistent opposition in the air!

Therefore, it is a moot point that the 15th Airborne Corps of the Chinese would be successful against India! And what could be their targets? Wherever is a target, the opposition that they will encounter would be formidable.

Therefore, the use of the 15th Airborne of the Chinese against India is a pipedream!
 
S

SammyCheung

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China will need to fully mechanize and informationalize. It needs to fully integrate strategic airlift into its doctrine. Once air superiority is achieved over the theater, the airlift can begin to deliver heavy weapons like MBT to the front. Plains should be the ideal target for tank operations.

The PLA is strong enough on land, but if it's supported by strategic airlift and helicopters, it would be an even more effective fighting force.

Currently 603 Institute and XAC are developing an advanced 4-engine large transport (Y-13?) which is smaller than American C-17 and based upon some IL-76MD technology. Its max payload was expected to be around 50t. The prototypes and the initial batch may be powered by Russian D-30KP-2/WS-18 turbofans, later by the modified WS-10. A full-scale metal model (head section) was constructed by 2008 and the first flight is projected in 2012. The next generation of medium transport aircraft was also rumored to be under development at XAC/603 Institute, powered by two WS-10 turbofans.
Chinese Military Aviation
 

Ray

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Air superiority is only achievable in cases like Panama and by the US.

Not feasible with nations having near parity.
 
S

SammyCheung

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I would rate Indian overall military at around 25% of PLA. In the theater, I think India would be around 50% of PLA. That number could be less if Pakistan regains some strength and can tie down the western front.
 

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