If India has to go for a two fronts war against China and Pakistan...

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OoE sir, so should we think there is no such thing like mutually assured destruction?
Depends on what you mean by MAD. 60 cities render essentially refugee centres at an estimated 600,000 to a million dead with cholera just around the corner.

It is not a pretty picture but it is a picture your government and your society would live to see.

So India can Implicate Monroe doctrine more aggressively under rapidly disseminating so called nuclear pockets in sub continent.
Is India willing to pay the price?
 

hit&run

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Is India willing to pay the price?
I am afraid, not at all. this is where all arguments end when we start to think who is at the disposal. i know there is no magical pill to treat such lesions at this stage for Indians.

But evil mind trespasses rationalities that is why not every nation is Switzerland. i will be satisfied when i ll feel sense of security or i be defeated badly like we know about few.

Furthermore war is not an episode i think, its a continuous process. Someday in future we be talking again when such issues wont exist.

I can understand you think straight and its fair enough for you having benign view for India. But still they are doing something which tells that war is inevitable unfortunately. if they wont start someone else will lead the charge.
 

Yusuf

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How can you term it is a border war, when there is a definite strategy behind two nuclear powered countries with disputes with us, attacking us simulatenously. And Indians, the idiots they are will call and tone down one wing of the attack to a just a border skirmish? Really? I would have assumed that you had more intelligence than that.
OoE has already divulged here that there was a plan to attack India from both sides, with complete support to Pakistan as well as Chinese also using if I am not wrong their own personnel 15th Airborne from India's western border, Now that is the scenario and that is the topic,now lets talk.
That scenario was of two decades ago and doesn't stand. China cannot depend on Pakistan anymore to fight on it's behalf. They got the lesson in Kargil. Perched on the hights the Pskistanis were driven out by IA. Their AF came nowhere near the border as they were scared of losing their crown jewels the F16s.

The way I see it is that the Chinese attack India without any sync with Pakistan and seeing India engaged with China, Pakistan attacks India thinking it can cover a lot of ground.

Right then under what circumstsmces will India discard it's no first strike policy? A large Chinese occupation kn Indian territory? Unlikely as the Indian Army won't allow that. China too has a no first strike policy. If it's the agressor and India is defending, what will be the provocation for it to strike with nukes first?
 

Adux

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That scenario was of two decades ago and doesn't stand. China cannot depend on Pakistan anymore to fight on it's behalf.
I would apperciate why you would think so, There has to be a political reason for it. Table it.

They got the lesson in Kargil. Perched on the hights the Pskistanis were driven out by IA. Their AF came nowhere near the border as they were scared of losing their crown jewels the F16s
It is a tactical issue at that point of time, which they have negated to with new acquisitions.

The way I see it is that the Chinese attack India without any sync with Pakistan and seeing India engaged with China, Pakistan attacks India thinking it can cover a lot of ground.
Just wait till Pakistan get over their civilian jihadi problems; Pakistan as a problem has a strategic problem with physical attributes of the Indian State. They cannot live peacefully with India, as long we control their water.

Right then under what circumstsmces will India discard it's no first strike policy? A large Chinese occupation kn Indian territory? Unlikely as the Indian Army won't allow that. China too has a no first strike policy. If it's the agressor and India is defending, what will be the provocation for it to strike with nukes first?
Point of contnetion here is, At what point or eventuality will the Indian Government go for a first strike? Chinese occupying large parts of India is a reality on a two front war. Whatever one says, it is impossible for the Indian Army to be super human! Heck we dont give them enough tech or the tech in enough numbers, nor do we pay them well.Two front war will have enormous impact on their capacity to keep the fight on.
 

natarajan

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till us forces leave pakistan,it will never join the party with china
 

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At what point or eventuality will the Indian Government go for a first strike?
Oh come on, Adu! THINK! 200 nukes IS NOT a 1st strike arsenal. There's only two 1st strike arsenals on earth and they both have over 10,000 nukes and India ain't one of them.
 

Adux

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Oh come on, Adu! THINK! 200 nukes IS NOT a 1st strike arsenal. There's only two 1st strike arsenals on earth and they both have over 10,000 nukes and India ain't one of them.
Sir,

You assume the first strike is to achieve some sort military objective that would render the Enemy useless, Its impossible in the context anyone other than Russian/American But it is not the point, mostly the lobbing a few nukes on each's highly populated will have desired effect on bringing back the status quo.
Sir, the question is what will India do when faced with Conventional defeat and loss of huge parts of land, on both borders and facing emiment collapse of the system that is the Indian State

Also can you please expand on
if the Indians are not training, what are the uses of those missile groups and all these nuclear warheads?
Does that mean India will never use its nukes? So if they have to use in some circumstance, how will they do it; if they are trained for it.
 

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You assume the first strike is to achieve some sort military objective that would render the Enemy useless, Its impossible in the context anyone other than Russian/American But it is not the point, mostly the lobbing a few nukes on each's highly populated will have desired effect on bringing back the status quo.
Then, what's the point? I remind you that the Chinese already have 1400 nuclear capable missiles, albeit currently aimed at Taiwan and currently HE armed. I also remind you that their warhead factories are not upto capacity. In two years time, with their stocks already on hand (and about the time to move those missiles from Taiwan to India), they can have about 2000 warheads. India would be lucky to add another 200. So, unless you are stating that such a nuclear war can end ... in India's favour, ... then what's the point?

Sir, the question is what will India do when faced with Conventional defeat and loss of huge parts of land, on both borders and facing emiment collapse of the system that is the Indian State
A bunch of rocks (litterally) would cause the collapse of the Indian state? We're not talking farmland, waterways, or even mineral mines. We're litterally talking a bunch of rocks.

Also can you please expand on
if the Indians are not training, what are the uses of those missile groups and all these nuclear warheads?
Does that mean India will never use its nukes? So if they have to use in some circumstance, how will they do it; if they are trained for it.
*** sigh *** OK *** Chinese, Indian, and Pakistani nukes are under CIVILIAN control, not military. As such, military rules do not apply to civilians. It is this lack of co-ordination that caused the Chinese (and I suspect the Indians very soon) to give up nukes and go conventional. "No egg head is going to tell a gunner how to shoot his guns."
 

Ray

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If there is a war between India and China, the remainder world will not be sitting pretty.

The article by Andy on Chinese intentions speaks adequately.

It should indicate what the Chinese would use and what is their objective!
 

Adux

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Sir,

India is state comprised of disimilar people and cultures, there are so many faultlines in the Indian Societal Fabric, A threat of an eminent collapse or an actual collapse will lead to more fissures within the Indian State. It is a possibility, a domestic one we cannot wish away. Indians have a capacity to make nearly 1000 more nukes from reactor grade plutonium and this is before the Indo-US Nuke deals, as per recent reports

Also isnt the American and Russian nukes also under Civilian Control(or are you talking about Component Form, not Launch Sequence)
 

Adux

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If there is a war between India and China, the remainder world will not be sitting pretty.

The article by Andy on Chinese intentions speaks adequately.

It should indicate what the Chinese would use and what is their objective!
Sir,

Which one? Can you please give me a link?
 

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Sir,

Andy's article is over 5 years old and General Cao is getting ready to step down if he has not already passed on his responsibilities to General Bai.

However, the CCP is a mysterious creature. There is no guarrantee that General Bai can continue General Cao's directives and may even find himself out of the job.
 

Ray

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Antimony posted it in military doctrines.
 

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Indians have a capacity to make nearly 1000 more nukes from reactor grade plutonium and this is before the Indo-US Nuke deals, as per recent reports
The figures I've seen says 2000 nukes but do note my timeline, it's 2 years.

Also isnt the American and Russian nukes also under Civilian Control(or are you talking about Component Form, not Launch Sequence)
Yes and no. Component form warheads are not covered by treaty (diliberately) and while under civilian control (Dept of Energy in the US, Ministry of Atomic Power in Russia), the readied warheads (1000-1700) as per treaty are all under military command.
 

Adux

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Ray, OoE,

India faces the biggest Nuclear Risk of all countries, Since both her rivals do fancy a chance with her,and there is a good chance of a an event sparking off. In such a scenario why would the Indians keep 'all' their warheads in Component form? Does it not take away reaction time? And also India's 200 nuke aresnal is atleast 4 year old assesment, Those 8 unsafegaurded reactors are not doing anything but make stuff for warheads!! And also wouldnt be prudent to have a Nuclear Force atleast the same number or more as the combined capacity of Pakistan and China?
 

natarajan

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in 10 years we will have some 4 submarines armed with nuclear missiles and it will be in sea continuously
 

Kabuli

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Could Pakistan's Air defense and even offensive capabilities be much better improved in that time span? I don't think it would be able to produce a significant threat to Indian air superiority. I also, do not believe Pakistan would use nuclear weapons in a first strike being assured of their own destruction.

I don't know much about the realities on the ground between India/China, but this thread is really interesting.
 

Sabir

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in 10 years we will have some 4 submarines armed with nuclear missiles and it will be in sea continuously
wrong...! by 2017 all ATVs will be compleated...and before 2020 they will be operational. Now add 2 Akula class SSN from Russia. Total figure will be at least 8.
 

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India faces the biggest Nuclear Risk of all countries, Since both her rivals do fancy a chance with her,and there is a good chance of a an event sparking off.
Nuclear rivals had gone to war without ever resorting to using nukes.

Sino-Soviet
Soviet-Israeli
Indo-Pak

In such a scenario why would the Indians keep 'all' their warheads in Component form? Does it not take away reaction time?
But it increases survival rates to the point that the Chinese would have to use all her arsenal just to take the nukes out ... and leaves nothing for anything else. Pakistan have no chance whatsoever.

And also India's 200 nuke aresnal is atleast 4 year old assesment, Those 8 unsafegaurded reactors are not doing anything but make stuff for warheads!!
The Agreement was that the spent fuel from these reactors will not be monitored but that does not automatically mean it is meant for weapons. Indian reactors still needs fuel from wherever she can get it.

And also wouldnt be prudent to have a Nuclear Force atleast the same number or more as the combined capacity of Pakistan and China?
Nukes are expensive and frankly useless on the battlefield. The major powers have abandon the concept of tactical nukes simply because accuracy and conventional warheads (HE, Thermobaric, and submunitions) has duplicated the equivlent effect. Five 500lb bombs dropped on a battalion HQ has more effect than a nuclear mine stopping an advancing column.
 

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