If India has to go for a two fronts war against China and Pakistan...

[Yusuf]

You mean to say we cannot have a border war with China and a full fledged war with Pakistan simultaneously?

 

[Adux]

You mean to say we cannot have a border war with China and a full fledged war with Pakistan simultaneously?

How can you term it is a border war, when there is a definite strategy behind two nuclear powered countries with disputes with us, attacking us simulatenously. And Indians, the idiots they are will call and tone down one wing of the attack to a just a border skirmish? Really? I would have assumed that you had more intelligence than that.
OoE has already divulged here that there was a plan to attack India from both sides, with complete support to Pakistan as well as Chinese also using if I am not wrong their own personnel 15th Airborne from India's western border, Now that is the scenario and that is the topic,now lets talk.

 

[hit&run]

what will be level of coordination between both china and pakistan.
how they will be able to communicate .
what are their chances to by pass Indian interception???
its a big task!!! given the fact India creates a great gap and may further increase if decides to do so at that time.

 

[hit&run]

How can you term it is a border war, when there is a definite strategy behind two nuclear powered countries with disputes with us, attacking us simulatenously. And Indians, the idiots they are will call and tone down one wing of the attack to a just a border skirmish? Really? I would have assumed that you had more intelligence than that.
OoE has already divulged here that there was a plan to attack India from both sides, with complete support to Pakistan as well as Chinese also using if I am not wrong their own personnel 15th Airborne from India's western border, Now that is the scenario and that is the topic,now lets talk.

conventional war! yes; you can call it as border war. Brush up 1971 how much pakistanis were able to stretch into india? They were melted into sand for every meter they encroached. We have a capable military build up all seasons (sadabhaar), any time for their advances. For pakistan the game of numbers is still a nightmare. Since 1971 both armies are paying cat n mouse to have minimum possible advantages in this game, proactively.

 

[Adux]

^ Pakistan was on both sides, as well as WAR was declared on them, just that our objective was to contain it in border and not move forward. That doesnt meant the western front was a border war.
You cant call two pronged simulataneous attack on India, a border war from two different countries working in tandem.

NOTE: Please be civil

 

[Adux]

what will be level of coordination between both china and pakistan.
how they will be able to communicate .
what are their chances to by pass Indian interception???
its a big task!!! given the fact India creates a great gap and may further increase if decides to do so at that time.

Why is there any need, any need at all for the Chinese to send troops to the west, When the Pakistani's are perfectly capable of handling the situation as long as China can sweep into the East of India. The only co-ordination that is required will be in the strategic level, Nothing at tactical level.

 

[Officer of Engineers]

So is the recent joint counter-terrorism exercise with Russia divisional action? Drones were deployed.

Dog and Pony show.

Are the regular hand-launched drones divisional assets as well. They don't seem to be that valueable.

But the C4ISR is. You have to ask who is in the best position to use those eyes and ears? While the regular bellycrawler would love to know he's walking into an ambush, the general needs to find the enemy vanguard first.

[In a lighter tone]: Yes, you do imply stuff. You often list some facts, and then ask why we can' get the gist.

Part of the job with command ranks is to teach and I've found that there is no better teacher than yourself. The way I was taught to teach is to point you in a direction, at times forcibly, and demand you find the answer.

 

[Officer of Engineers]

I don't know what happened.

M16 Jammed a lot.

Weapons discipline problems more than anything else. The old 7.62NATO and even the 7.62AK rifles are a lot more rugged but whole lot more inaccurate and thus can tolerate much more abuse. I never got less than a 7 inch grouping with my old FN-FALC1.

The M-16 series requires much more diligence in cleaning and maintenance, especially in the application of gun oils. You can't use too much.

Still, my 1st issue, I got a 3 inch grouping right off the bat and I cut another half an inch after 100 rounds.

 

[EnlightenedMonk]

^^ FN-FAL is the SLR, right ??? 7 inches at what distance sir ???

 

[hit&run]

Why is there any need, any need at all for the Chinese to send troops to the west, When the Pakistani's are perfectly capable of handling the situation as long as China can sweep into the East of India. The only co-ordination that is required will be in the strategic level, Nothing at tactical level.

See, we were all stressing the same as you said. but yesterday there were few twinkles from OoE and even Ray understood from the same that they both may try to create a big hole from west; without any factor of factor of surprise:s:s.
i think we are, we are i repeat; missing some thing on very critical level and undermining whole Indian defence establishment was difficult to digest merely on the basis they operate. that is why i was asking OoE to think if he has some space to give benefit of doubt to contemporary one.

To me we are able to maintain our position up against both enemies post 1962 with the same school of thoughts. If history does matters then the recent history says that we have forced both assertive opponents(successfully engaged) to think differently to counter Indian way of defences.

 

[Officer of Engineers]

OK, people, why there won't be nukes used. Because the people holding the nuclear release keys are anal up the ying-yang.

In all 3 cases (China, Pakistan, and India), the nukes are kept in component form for a variety of reasons, least of which is that it complicates any attack plan to take them out. As with any such procedures, you need to train to get them out, mated to their delivery vehicles, and proceed with launch and initiation.

The problem with this is that the key holders are civilian scientists, not military personel. While once in a while, you can get them to actually train for a proper scenario, most of the time, they're not going to do it without overtime pay and certainly, not unannounced. Seriously, they rather take their daughter to the ballet than spend a night playing wargames.

This is so bad with the PLA that the 2nd Artillery Force, their strategic delivery force, gave up on nukes and went conventional. They still maintain a nuclear delivery force but their conventional force expanded much faster in numbers, technique, and technology.

In the past 7 years since I discovered this move (and I was the first to put this in writing that the 2AF has replaced nukes with HE in their 1st strike missions), I've noticed that they went from a 5 rocket salvo down to 3.

A second point here. At less than 200 nukes per country, all 3 will not use nukes as 1st strike. It doesn't make military sense to do so. At 200 nukes, you may take out 60 targets. Hardly a war winning scenario. As retallitory strike force though, taking 60 targets will hurt.

Adu, I'm not sure the Pakistan option is still on the PLA's books. Nobody was impressed with Kargil. Further more, the WZC doctrine does not emphasized total war but punitive actions.

 

[Officer of Engineers]

^^ FN-FAL is the SLR, right ??? 7 inches at what distance sir ???

100 metres.

 

[Officer of Engineers]

See, we were all stressing the same as you said. but yesterday there were few twinkles from OoE and even Ray understood from the same that they both may try to create a big hole from west; without any factor of factor of surprise:s:s.

This was the 1980s. The PLA was still a foot army (and still is in a lot of cases). Even if the 15ABC can achieve surprise in Pakistan, the Lanzhou and the Chengdu MRs are not going to surprise no one.

i think we are, we are i repeat; missing some thing on very critical level and undermining whole Indian defence establishment was difficult to digest merely on the basis they operate.

That such a plan existed was a surprise to me. The good Captain who relayed that info to me did not and would not reveal anymore and it would be impolite to press. You do not ask a soldier to betray his oaths.

Then, I did what the Brigadier did. I looked at the map and try to see what they saw.

 

[Adux]

OoE,

I have always wondered this, Why did China give Pakistan a very very frosty cold shoulder during the Kargil War. Why was China so annoyed with Pakistan? Kargil again is a small operation and I dont think it can be a barometer for China to assess Pakistani's on their value to two front war concept!


Sir, You wouldnt be saying that when a Two front war is being thrust on India, by two very capable forces. That, Indians atleast will be pushed to corner, would do something out of character as "burning" those No First Use Pact paper. I am sure all those scientist and every one round atleast from the Indian perspective will leave their daughter at the safest place in some rural India, and get those nukes ready. India and Indians would be very afraid of the two front war, I know I am. It will determine wether India exist as a political entity or not. I do believe that in this context, it might be the Indians who will use Nuke first, Pshycological effects of a two front war on Indians cannot be negated.


And also why would they throw those plans away as long as Pakistan is their lackey? I mean it is the perfect scenario against the Indians. And we clearly dont have the resources to hold of a two front attack from Pakistan and China. Even if they dont do that in unison, why wouldnt Pakistan take an advantage against India, when she is battle with the Chinese.

 

[F-14]

em the the SLR is a lisenced Indian Variant FN FAL the FAL was actually desinged to fire both the Amarican and British bullets in the 1950's I(forgot the Caliber designations) with the stansdardization of the NATO Rounds to 7.62 Cal FN(Feberique National) streched the desing to the max the FAL was a night mare when it was on full auto due to the fact that it hand a tedency to overshoot at full auto India had followed the rest of the commonwealth in adopting the British Variant FN FAL L1A1 in that period the IOF Accurquired the lisence to manufacture the L1A1AND The INSAS incoperates many features of the FAL that is standing testimony to the wepones impact on the IA

 

[Officer of Engineers]

Sir this brigade-division-corps that we follow is a direct result of the IA's close relation with the British Army does the Canadian forces Land command follow the brigade-division-corps model to please enlighten me sir

Division is the highest we practice on and that only a map/computer exercise. In fact, I don't think we had a real divisional exercise in the West for 20 years, ever since the end of REFORGER. Most division and corps exercises were/are map/computer based.

Most of our training exercises are battle group and brigade group.

 

[Officer of Engineers]

em the the SLR is a lisenced Indian Variant FN FAL the FAL was actually desinged to fire both the Amarican and British bullets in the 1950's I(forgot the Caliber designations) with the stansdardization of the NATO Rounds to 7.62 Cal FN(Feberique National) streched the desing to the max the FAL was a night mare when it was on full auto due to the fact that it hand a tedency to overshoot at full auto India had followed the rest of the commonwealth in adopting the British Variant FN FAL L1A1 in that period the IOF Accurquired the lisence to manufacture the L1A1AND The INSAS incoperates many features of the FAL that is standing testimony to the wepones impact on the IA

You have to be nuts to fire the 7.62NATO on full auto, especially in a battle rifle.

 

[Officer of Engineers]

I have always wondered this, Why did China give Pakistan a very very frosty cold shoulder during the Kargil War. Why was China so annoyed with Pakistan? Kargil again is a small operation and I dont think it can be a barometer for China to assess Pakistani's on their value to two front war concept!

It was a dumbass military move to isolate a garrison in enemy territory with a shoe string LOC.

Sir, You wouldnt be saying that when a Two front war is being thrust on India, by two very capable forces. That, Indians atleast will be pushed to corner, would do something out of character as "burning" those No First Use Pact paper. I am sure all those scientist and every one round atleast from the Indian perspective will leave their daughter at the safest place in some rural India, and get those nukes ready. India and Indians would be very afraid of the two front war, I know I am. It will determine wether India exist as a political entity or not. I do believe that in this context, it might be the Indians who will use Nuke first, Pshycological effects of a two front war on Indians cannot be negated.

You're not understanding. Your rocketeers are not training with proper nuclear release and mating procedures and especially, not as a surprise exercise ... which is about the only real scenario. The last such Chinese exercise was 1996 and before then, it was 1987. If the Mao suits can't get their egg heads to play nice with their fireworks guys, do you think India could do better without overtime pay and time off?

And also why would they throw those plans away as long as Pakistan is their lackey? I mean it is the perfect scenario against the Indians. And we clearly dont have the resources to hold of a two front attack from Pakistan and China. Even if they dont do that in unison, why wouldnt Pakistan take an advantage against India, when she is battle with the Chinese.

The WZC doctrine does not envision an allied force in a battle the Chinese have no control over, especially when the Pakistanis have shown no expertise in tying down large Indian formations.

 

[hit&run]

OoE sir, so should we think there is no such thing like mutually assured destruction?
So India can Implicate Monroe doctrine more aggressively under rapidly disseminating so called nuclear pockets in sub continent.

 

[F-14]

You have to be nuts to fire the 7.62NATO on full auto, especially in a battle rifle.

yes sir as far i know all comonwealth variants of the FAL was semi auto default but the argentian and isralie FAL had both semi auto and full auto