If India has to go for a two fronts war against China and Pakistan...

[Officer of Engineers]

But later attacks on the mountains by soldiers were launched only after continuous heavy shelling was done for hours together. The kargil victory belongs to the artillery team too.

Sorry, didn't see this. The problem was that the NLI was very well adept to using reverse slope.

 

[macintosh]

He is way above my pay grade but that is neither here nor there. The General understands the Pakistanis and the Chinese. How many of you do?

The General understands them but not the politicians. When Bofors scandal broke out the General said to Defence Minister Arjun Singh "Let the Bofors deal be cancelled, India can live without it.We still have not got enough of them that we can't cancel it.Let's buy another one." But PM was admant despite a written recommendation from him. Until now more than 25 million have been wasted on investigating it yet nothing has come out.

 

[tharikiran]

Sorry, didn't see this. The problem was that the NLI was very well adept to using reverse slope.

Please go through the link I have provided. It talks about the reverse slope too.

 

[Officer of Engineers]

No offence to the good Captain but I was digging reverse slope entrenchments when he was in his diapers.

The Brigadier and I already gone through this document.

 

[Officer of Engineers]

The General understands them but not the politicians. When Bofors scandal broke out the General said to Defence Minister Arjun Singh "Let the Bofors deal be cancelled, India can live without it.We still have not got enough of them that we can't cancel it.Let's buy another one." But PM was admant despite a written recommendation from him. Until now more than 25 million have been wasted on investigating it yet nothing has come out.

Welcome to my world.

 

[Ray]

If I have understood correctly, China will use Pakistan territory in conjunction with Pakistan to attack India on both fronts.

If that be so, I wonder how China will maintain strategic surprise. If they use the KKH and with today’s surveillance capability and HUMINT resources that the US has in Pakistan, it will be discovered before one can say, Deng Xiao Ping!! If China uses the Indian Ocean, she will get blockaded!

The issue of the Airborne Corps is is moot. It will be interdicted in the air and a depleted strength will land in Pakistan.

To believe that other nations inspite of such indicators standing aloof is another issue worth note.

As I always maintain, Chinese are no fools!

 

[Ray]

Understanding warfare is not be the virtue of rank.

The amount of information and intelligence given by the Colonel is full in my computer.

Let us listen to him also. even if we have our reservations!

 

[Officer of Engineers]

If I have understood correctly, China will use Pakistan territory in conjunction with Pakistan to attack India on both fronts.

If that be so, I wonder how China will maintain strategic surprise. If they use the KKH and with today’s surveillance capability and HUMINT resources that the US has in Pakistan, it will be discovered before one can say, Deng Xiao Ping!! If China uses the Indian Ocean, she will get blockaded!

The issue of the Airborne Corps is is moot. It will be interdicted in the air and a depleted strength will land in Pakistan.

To believe that other nations inspite of such indicators standing aloof is another issue worth note.

As I always maintain, Chinese are no fools!

Sir,

I don't believe the PLA expects strategic surprise. In fact, I strongly doubt it. The Good Captain ChinaWarrior always maintained that it would have to be an all out war through two fronts and even then, the logistical picture would be extremely hard to maintain.

And in fact, Sir, strategic surprise works against PLA doctrine of a decisive battle. Rather, strategic deception would be the norm. Sir, it is no secret that the Indians expects a defensive/limited offensive war in the East while a full fledge battle in the West.

PLA doctrine wants to destroy a signifant Indian formation. With that in mind, rightly or wrongly, they need to limit re-enforcement and re-supply to such a formation and nothing could be better than a 15ABC lead Pakistani Army charge.

 

[Adux]

OoE, Ray

This comparison in which some Indian Military which has enormous resources and not to mention brilliant men, and also political will if and when needed, is somehow comes up short changed in front of this new super-power in th making China, and will be somehow mincemeat in their advance is something I cant subscribe, I am not a military expert like you lot, but I for cant believe we are that weak and the Chinese that powerful, and somehow we are stagnet in training,

OoE,

I am sure as avid watcher that you are, Just because there is no information on Indian advances doesnt mean there isnt any!

 

[Adux]

OoE, Ray

This comparison in which some Indian Military which has enormous resources and not to mention brilliant men, and also political will if and when needed, is somehow comes up short changed in front of this new super-power in th making China, and will be somehow mincemeat in their advance is something I cant subscribe, I am not a military expert like you lot, but I for cant believe we are that weak and the Chinese that powerful, and somehow we are stagnet in training,

OoE,

I am sure as avid watcher that you are, Just because there is no information on Indian advances doesnt mean there isnt any!

 

[Officer of Engineers]

but I for cant believe we are that weak and the Chinese that powerful, and somehow we are stagnet in training,

Who says you are? The only thing I have said is that they've done more development work ... and by the same token, made more mistakes ... but you have to understand where is the starting line, not where is the end line?

What the Chinese are doing today, the British Indian Army has already done. Your officers task, not command, ie "take that hill and I don't care how you do it." vs the Chinese "you have to lead 32 men up that hill after 15 minutes of bombardment starting 12:00 hours."

I am sure as avid watcher that you are, Just because there is no information on Indian advances doesnt mean there isnt any!

But are enough people in the know. A secret is totally useless if not enough people know about the secret. Have you read FM 3.0 yet? To this date, I have not read the Official Cold Start document.

 

[hbogyt]

re

How much electricity China generates to that of India? Are you thinking of a new concept of shock and awe in a war situation?

You misunderstood me. I was merely pointing out the fact that some "toy" producing capacity can be converted to produce weapons and ammunitions in war time.

Regarding the generation capacity of India. I read in some economic books that Indian cities are usually undersupplied. Of course in war time you could forgo some of civilian use I suppose.

 

[Flint]

^I have to agree with OOE. To a significant extent, the IA is reluctant to give up traditions and experiment with new ideas and improvements.
Let us remember that the British handed us the current structure, while the Chinese have developed theirs from scratch. That gives them a significant advantage in terms of understanding their system, or as OOE puts it, understanding their own limitations.

 

[p2prada]

All my readings indicate that they are to die before they can re-enforce anyone. This is on par with para/air assualt doctrines of the East Bloc.

And the east bloc soldiers live with that reality. Unreal.

In the context of the 1980s, they were the only formation capable of striking through Pakistan.

In context, 3 PLA regiments and 6 InA brigades already moved. From what I can gather, warning orders were issued to two Military Regions (none of them activated) but the whole thing died down before anymore signifcant military movements got underway. No shooting was involved.

If my understanding was right, the Indians want to take all of Askin Chin while the PLA was preparing a two front all out war. Both armies were thankful that cooler heads prevailed.

Did this happen in the early 80s or late 80s sir? If it was the late 80s then Siachen may have been a deterring factor for any action from both sides.

It is strange that I found a Chinese article listing all the Chinese regiments and their COs involved in that war with also all the Indian brigades and their CO. Have any Indian historian or journalist ever found the name of a single Chinese regiment in that war?

I don't understand. Do you imply our media was playing it down or were incompetent?

My point here is that the Indian side still got a lot to learn from that war, least of all the Chinese commanders involved.

Will not deny that sir.

They fought each other. The Black Hats against the Yellow Hats is a well know Tibettan fued.

True they fought each other. In the 70s India led subversive activities against the all powerful Pakistani Army in East Pakistan with fewer members of the Mukti Bahini. That's one reason why Pakistani doctrine specifically states the use of Nuclear Weapons against India if large scale subversive activities are reported. Never underestimate the determination of a few people untied in one goal. It always bites back when it's least expected.

Check out the CAPF border guards. They ain't Han-Chinese.

You mean People's Armed Police force. Are they Tibetans or some other minority? I don't know.

They number more than a million. I am sure majority of them will be Han Chinese.

And yet, they've done far more work in modernization than the Indian Army and I mean doctrine and technique wise. In the past 30 years, I've seen first units (company level modernization), brigadization (reduced divisions), battalion size battle groups. In essence, they have moved from a traditional east bloc regiment-division-army to a very unique Chinese battalion-brigade-group army model and one I don't know if it would work or not (I'm seeing a lot of mistakes). At the same time, we've only seen the Indian Cold Start Integrated Battle Group announced and still, I have yet to see the TOE of that echelon.

One thing I have learned in my military career. Expect the other guy to be smarter than you are but learn his limitations. The one thing the Chinese are doing more than the Indians is that they are learning more about their own limitations than the Indians are learning about their own.

I will not deny anything. All of this is true. We even had serving officers coming out with criticism some years ago. Something about using WW2 strategies and tactics even today.

We have been working on some levels of networking in the last decade. This is an article on Mercury Thunder,
?Mercury Thunder? To Enable Real Time Battlefield Data Transfer

We are also working on new modular assault rifles, better winter clothing and food. The new rifles will have the basic single shot, burst and automatic firing capability and capable of firing 3 different calibers.

For some info on the gun(multi-Caliber Individual Weapon System).
YouTube - DDRO develops Human Soldier Weapon System.

So, in technology we are doing something when it comes to modernization. In tactics and strategy, I am not able to comment on it. But, we have conducted quite a few exercises that involved NBC and net centric warfare(Though it's not yet reached Corps level).

 

[Adux]

OoE,

The more development work they are doing is because they are already behind India in doctrine and tactics, So it is basically a catch up. I am more concerned about Indian Strategic reserve capacity in a two front war. And I dont think the Chinese would bother much in the Western Side, since I have great sureity that the Pakistani's can take care of themselves if the Indians can also be pinned in the east. During early 1990's, I have had my dad's friends in the Army talk about they were bothered about Pakistani Generals than those Chinese one's.

 

[Ray]

Without strategic surprise, the war is a non starter. That is important for China to realise if they want to use Pakistan as a launch pad.

That is how I see it.

If using the Indian Ocean, they are blocked. If using the KKH, they will be interdicted, not only by India, but by those with whom India has ‘strategic relationship’! No one wants China to rule the roost for obvious reasons!


Such huge airlilifts can be interdicated. Indeed, if a huge airlift is spotted on the radar or by satellite, who will sit smug? War is not a smug and a snap decision. It is the end result of a build up of diplomatic dialogue!


I will confess I have not understood the scenario!

Pakistan beholden to the US to keep her afloat can hardly go against US desires. A case in point, is that inspite of all the prevarication and clever sidestepping, the US has forced them to act against the Taliban!

Money helping poverty speaks!

We must also not forget the influence the western powers have over Tibetan and Uighur freedom movements! And the Turkish interests!

Tibetans can be controlled. Muslims?

 

[Officer of Engineers]

Gentlemen, I will answer your questions in 24 hours but I need sleep and to earn a paycheque in 4 hours, not to mention getting my little girl to day camp.

Brigadier, the PLA did not want war. The CCP did. The Good Captain ChinaWarrior told of stories that the General HQ could not make the Politburo understand that the entire crisis was over people trying to stay warm.

I never got to know who built what huts but the story goes that some Indian border guards were trying to stay warm in a Chinese hut or vice versa when the whole thing went down hill.

 

[tharikiran]

No offence to the good Captain but I was digging reverse slope entrenchments when he was in his diapers.

The Brigadier and I already gone through this document.

What has that to do with the document.
The document is for every one to have a look at.The guy has written facts and the Indian artillery did a good job.

 

[p2prada]

Gentlemen, I will answer your questions in 24 hours but I need sleep and to earn a paycheque in 4 hours, not to mention getting my little girl to day camp.

Brigadier, the PLA did not want war. The CCP did. The Good Captain ChinaWarrior told of stories that the General HQ could not make the Politburo understand that the entire crisis was over people trying to stay warm.

I never got to know who built what huts but the story goes that some Indian border guards were trying to stay warm in a Chinese hut or vice versa when the whole thing went down hill.

Looking forward to continue this discussion with you sir.

 

[Ray]

Gentlemen, I will answer your questions in 24 hours but I need sleep and to earn a paycheque in 4 hours, not to mention getting my little girl to day camp.

Brigadier, the PLA did not want war. The CCP did. The Good Captain ChinaWarrior told of stories that the General HQ could not make the Politburo understand that the entire crisis was over people trying to stay warm.

I never got to know who built what huts but the story goes that some Indian border guards were trying to stay warm in a Chinese hut or vice versa when the whole thing went down hill.

Colonel,


As per my previous posts, neither India not China is interested in a war right now!


We have to remove our poverty, inequalities and modernise and that is only feasible if there is peace!