If India has to go for a two fronts war against China and Pakistan...

[Adux]

A 100 mile maximum penetration either way? Indian Cold Start and Chinese War Zone Campaign? Never mind the Pakistanis, their doctrine is nowhere as complex.

From what I understand of Cold Start,( do remember that I am a civvie, I could give you political implications and strategic implications, than on the ground battlespace analysis.So, do bear with me there).I am at ends how they can be employed in a Indo-Tibetan border.

And also their birds in most probability will be mincemeat(we can go on terrain, tactics, training, tech etc), since it Indian Airforce is exactly tasked in the same as them, that was the biggest lesson learnt in 1962.

 

[Officer of Engineers]

Sir,
you seem to be suggesting that the main objective of China would be a propaganda victory. India wouldnt care if China gets a propaganda victory as long as India doesnt lose land. India goes to war for land(and therefore border dispute is a very sensitive issue for India) unlike China (which you claim) goes to war for propaganda. But if you are saying that China would want to achieve their propaganda victory by grabbing Indian land then there is a conflict (which can escalate to any degree). Otherwise, India wouldnt really mind a stalemate which China declares as a self-victory.
India's concern is China's imperial ambitions of Arunachal Pradesh(or some other place in North East India).

How should I put this.

Chinese LOCs collapsed in 1962 ... and yet, somehow they won.

The Chinese captured 3 Vietnamese provincial capitals in 1979 and yet, somehow, they've lost.

Let me put this more bluntly. Tet was a military disaster but it was the biggest propaganda victory in history. Which mattered more to Hanoi?

 

[Sridhar]

i am talking about peace time and it is only with Indian army. Indian air force has its own SAM installments;(but significantly less then Indian army). and these are difficult to google earth for Pakistan and Superiorly equipped chines surveillance due to nature of terrains.

I suggest you can read this blog IMINT & Analysis , for any info on SAM sites based on google earth.

It has got a good database here , http://imintandanalysis.googlepages.com/SAMSiteOverview.kmz
which is updated regularly.

 

[Adux]

Oh come on Adux, this is me! I told you exactly where the Chinese went wrong in 1962. Their battle momentum overtook their battle discipline.

But that is not the point. The point was the world thought Vietnam was a tougher army than India and after 30 years of continous war, they may have a point. After all, they beat the French, the Americans, and then proceed to give the Chinese a bloody nose, an army you admit defeat to.

Now, I know the reality is completely different but you know I treat history with extreme respect. And the history was the that PAVN was RATED, NOT better than the InA.

As you know Sir, My respect for you stays regardless of WAB.

I will never under-estimate the tenacity of the Vietnamese, if that was the barometer you placed on. And I agree. But resources, strategic alternatives, political, tactics, training, weapons that is in the conventional sense; Indian Army does even trump the Chinese. I consider 1962 a blip on an otherwise great Indian Army; and you would be kind enough to acknowledge that they have been short handed by their own people, which is why the damn war report is still a state secret.

 

[Officer of Engineers]

Sir are you considering the Chinese to airlift the 15th Airborne across India into Pakistan or into Pakistan across the CAR or into India, say Arunachal Pradesh or Assam.

I don't know. The Good Captain I was conversing with never let on. He has his oaths to obey also.

Also, Satish is indicating Chinese experience in fighting a war in the mountains.

Korea.

 

[Officer of Engineers]

From what I understand of Cold Start,( do remember that I am a civvie, I could give you political implications and strategic implications, than on the ground battlespace analysis.So, do bear with me there).I am at ends how they can be employed in a Indo-Tibetan border.

Oh come on Adux, you are better than this. The Red/Soviet/PLA Army ALWAYS seek the battle of annihilation. Come on, you know this!

And also their birds in most probability will be mincemeat(we can go on terrain, tactics, training, tech etc), since it Indian Airforce is exactly tasked in the same as them, that was the biggest lesson learnt in 1962.

But will your birds take out their birds before the ground action is decided? This is beneath you. The old Moscow joke about two Soviet generals sitting in a Paris caffee. One asked the other, "so, who won the air war?"

In both the Korean and the American-Vietnam War, more American birds were lost to ground based Air Defence than air-to-air action. The East bloc believes this. The East bloc lives this.

I will never under-estimate the tenacity of the Vietnamese, if that was the barometer you placed on. And I agree. But resources, strategic alternatives, political, tactics, training, weapons that is in the conventional sense; Indian Army does even trump the Chinese. I consider 1962 a blip on an otherwise great Indian Army; and you would be kind enough to acknowledge that they have been short handed by their own people, which is why the damn war report is still a state secret.

And you would be missing the point left, right, and centre, and ignoring your own Kargil War as well. Battle momentum. Battle momentum.

Adux, I am disappointed. I had thought you've learned this through all the postings about WWII, all the post WWII wars, etc, and the one thing you do not give up is battle momentum no matter what kind of casualties you are sufferring regardless of what is costing you your casualties. When you are charging, you keep on charging regardless if the enemy shoots the horse out from under you or the REMF in the back wants the horse to carry his prostitude to his bed.

 

[johnee]

How should I put this.

Chinese LOCs collapsed in 1962 ... and yet, somehow they won.

The Chinese captured 3 Vietnamese provincial capitals in 1979 and yet, somehow, they've lost.

Let me put this more bluntly. Tet was a military disaster but it was the biggest propaganda victory in history. Which mattered more to Hanoi?

Well, thanx for putting it bluntly, sir. Its clear that propaganda matters more to China than anything else. And land matters more to India than anything else. So, if China tries to grab more land, it will face more resistance from India. That will mean more struggle for China(which is not good for propaganda). The best way for China to get a propaganda victory is to give some hard time to IA and threaten more, withdraw on its terms(atleast make it look like that) and claim a victory.
From India's point of view, this is not entirely bad. For no tangible loses(in terms of land).


EDIT: From a layman's perspective: China seems to have done something similar in 1962.

 

[p2prada]

I don't know. The Good Captain I was conversing with never let on. He has his oaths to obey also.

Sir, I meant whatever you can say on your views on the operational capabilities of the 15th Airborne.

Korea.

Sir, the Korean mountains are molehills compared to the Himalayas. Almost all the Hollywood flicks on mountains are based on the Himalayas.

More importantly, we have indigenous populations who have lived on our Eight-Thousanders for hundreds of years and also form the bulk of our forces against the Chinese. Eg: Gurkhas.

We have the required manpower who have been mountain climbing and living in extreme conditions since they were born. Han Chinese cannot depend on their Tibetan "friends" for mountain warfare either.

 

[hit&run]

We are mixing something very wrong on unit level here. Cold start is Pakistan specific. It is never ment to be china specific. I ll rather stress readers to you stduy it again. I won't mind loosing land to china and neutralizing 30000 odd PLA men. And won't mind loosing men by western border but capturing Islamabad.

 

[hit&run]

Sir, I meant whatever you can say on your views on the operational capabilities of the 15th Airborne.



Sir, the Korean mountains are molehills compared to the Himalayas. Almost all the Hollywood flicks on mountains are based on the Himalayas.

More importantly, we have indigenous populations who have lived on our Eight-Thousanders for hundreds of years and also form the bulk of our forces against the Chinese. Eg: Gurkhas.

We have the required manpower who have been mountain climbing and living in extreme conditions since they were born. Han Chinese cannot depend on their Tibetan "friends" for mountain warfare either.

please don't forget to mention mountain artilary superiority over both china and Pakistan

 

[Adux]

Oh come on Adux, you are better than this. The Red/Soviet/PLA Army ALWAYS seek the battle of annihilation. Come on, you know this!

Sir I am rusty....I have lost my touch with military strategy.

But I am more concerned on the Indian Logisitics point of view, Or should I consider all those Advanced Landing Strips and opening of new bases etc by the Indians in their East,as the employment of Cold Start Doctrine.

But will your birds take out their birds before the ground action is decided? This is beneath you. The old Moscow joke about two Soviet generals sitting in a Paris caffee. One asked the other, "so, who won the air war?"

I believe so, but I do get your point.

In both the Korean and the American-Vietnam War, more American birds were lost to ground based Air Defence than air-to-air action. The East bloc believes this. The East bloc lives this.

You buy a plane from the West and you buy a SAM from the East, which is why I see buying of the Super Hornet as the most important military asset in the Indian context from a tactical level. That system gels very well with the Cold Start Doctrine of preemptive strike.

And you would be missing the point left, right, and centre, and ignoring your own Kargil War as well. Battle momentum. Battle momentum.

Sir,

Isnt battlefield momentum the whole point of Cold Start Doctrine? I take that as a given fact in the next conflict.

Adux, I am disappointed. I had thought you've learned this through all the postings about WWII, all the post WWII wars, etc, and the one thing you do not give up is battle momentum no matter what kind of casualties you are sufferring regardless of what is costing you your casualties. When you are charging, you keep on charging regardless if the enemy shoots the horse out from under you or the REMF in the back wants the horse to carry his prostitude to his bed.

Indians in comparison to the Chinese and Pakistan has a lesser threshold for Casualities.

 

[p2prada]

On a lighter tone: We probably have more mules than Pakistan and China combined.

Some of my apartments security guards are Nepali. One of them is from a village that takes 3 days to travel from Bangalore to Kathmandu by train and a 3 day trek through the mountains to reach. Incredible. He invited me. I had to refuse politely saying I won't live through the journey.

 

[Officer of Engineers]

From India's point of view, this is not entirely bad. For no tangible loses(in terms of land).

I'm not sure. To be frank, I'm not sure how well either doctrine works. Cold Start and WZC are both micro examples of the American Field Manual 3.0 Operations. Other than the Brigadier Ray and myself, I don't think anyone here has bothered to read that.

Both Cold Start and WZC expect actions to be fast, bold, and decisive. In other words, neither doctrine expects total war. This is in complete contrast to the US FM3.0 Ops (and the associating ABCA manuals) which adheres to total war in which the OPOBJs is to render the enemy incapble of responding in any shape or fashion, ie I've already surrounded your army and kicking down your bathroom door while you're taking a crap. Both CS and WZC by contrast is knocking down your fence on your garden and running away before you catch me ... or me sh!tting on your flower bed and leaving it for you to clean up.

Let me ask you this. Would you consider it a victory if you lose 30,000 men but the Chinese ran away before your 100,000 men could avenge the loss?

Sir, I meant whatever you can say on your views on the operational capabilities of the 15th Airborne.

3 15ABC regts re-enforced Tibet during the 1980s with readied stocks in Tibet. During the earthquakes, they were the 1st responders, and during the Tibet riots, they gave up APCs to the China Armed Police Force.

DFI has the honour of an Indian Brigadier who tries to think like a Chinese General. Why don't you try the same and see if the data matches your thinking? The Brigadier was not at the least surprised to find the PLA matches his expectations as a military man.

Sir, the Korean mountains are molehills compared to the Himalayas. Almost all the Hollywood flicks on mountains are based on the Himalayas.

Ok, how about 1962?

More importantly, we have indigenous populations who have lived on our Eight-Thousanders for hundreds of years and also form the bulk of our forces against the Chinese. Eg: Gurkhas.

And they have the Tibettans, and no, the majority of the Tibettans are NOT on the Dali Lama's side.

We have the required manpower who have been mountain climbing and living in extreme conditions since they were born. Han Chinese cannot depend on their Tibetan "friends" for mountain warfare either.

*** sigh *** I do suggest you do some research on who made up the Tibettan Red Guards. I will give you a hint, it ain't Han-Chinese.

We are mixing something very wrong on unit level here. Cold start is Pakistan specific.

No, it is not. You will not understand this and I neither have the patience nor the inclination to explain but Cold Start reflects military CULTURE more than any country specific. In other words, this is what an ARMY WANTS TO DO, not what an Army wants done on whom.

I won't mind loosing land to china and neutralizing 30000 odd PLA men.

The Chinese lost that in the 1979 1st Sino-Vn War and then proceeded further isolate and neutralized Vietnam.

And won't mind loosing men by western border but capturing Islamabad.

And the Brigadier would repeat to you my paraphrase of Mao.

The Chinese will fight India down to the last Pakistani.

Has no one on this forum EVER explain this strategy?

 

[hit&run]

On a lighter tone: We probably have more mules than Pakistan and China combined.

Some of my apartments security guards are Nepali. One of them is from a village that takes 3 days to travel from Bangalore to Kathmandu by train and a 3 day trek through the mountains to reach. Incredible. He invited me. I had to refuse politely saying I won't live through the journey.

that was nasty

 

[Officer of Engineers]

please don't forget to mention mountain artilary superiority over both china and Pakistan

Have you not read the gunner difficulties at Kargil?

 

[duhastmish]

how about most of Himalayan being in Chinese territory ? they having a advantage of height over us in - some key battles?
and how about - Chinese being good with - high altitude than most Indians, i think that might favor the Chinese army.
-------

 

[hit&run]

No, it is not. You will not understand this and I neither have the patience nor the inclination to explain but Cold Start reflects military CULTURE more than any country specific. In other words, this is what an ARMY WANTS TO DO, not what an Army wants done on whom.

I disagree; principle/ doctrine/ culture on any subject have exceptions. The exceptions to the principle of war tend to be crucial. In war every problem and every principle is duality. Being a vulnerable opponent I am flexible, enemy concentric and believe in exceptions.

 

[Officer of Engineers]

But I am more concerned on the Indian Logisitics point of view, Or should I consider all those Advanced Landing Strips and opening of new bases etc by the Indians in their East,as the employment of Cold Start Doctrine.

The Brigadier and I have discussed this. I want to see stock piles for at least battalion and up. Otherwise, it's merely a company level staging point.

I believe so, but I do get your point.

Will your birds be in time to help determine the action. The InAF said they did at Kargil against a battalion level force. The Brigadier disagrees. So do I.

You buy a plane from the West and you buy a SAM from the East, which is why I see buying of the Super Hornet as the most important military asset in the Indian context from a tactical level. That system gels very well with the Cold Start Doctrine of preemptive strike.

2000 sorties per day for 30 days and the Iraqi Republican Guard Forward Command still managed Al Khafji, Kuwait Airport, Medina Ridge.

At 400 sorties a day against the tiny province of Kosovo, we counted 12, that's twelve pieces destroyed.

At 800 cruise missile strikes on Baghdad, 3-7Cav got itself surrounded and Basra stopped the Brits cold.

Yep, go with the Superbug.

Isnt battlefield momentum the whole point of Cold Start Doctrine?

Decisive action is the whole point of Cold Start.

Indians in comparison to the Chinese and Pakistan has a lesser threshold for Casualities.

Call it what you will but there is a point when you become combat ineffective.

I disagree; principle/ doctrine/ culture on any subject have exceptions. The exceptions to the principle of war tend to be crucial. In war every problem and every principle is duality. Being a vulnerable opponent I am flexible, enemy concentric and believe in exceptions.

You're describing operations, not culture.

 

[hit&run]

Have you not read the gunner difficulties at Kargil?

still they were able to win war for us given the fact enemy was more well posed.
although i was trying to mention that we be able to halt bellycrawler with the same.

 

[hit&run]

You're describing operations, not culture.

no i am trying to win war for you.. which rest of them have already lost.