If India has to go for a two fronts war against China and Pakistan...

[p2prada]

So you acknowledge insurgency in Kashmir is indigenous and not Pakistan sponsored

Yes its all cooked up Militants are irritant but they are not a total threat

ROFL. Ray sirs talking about killing our own(Maoists) afflicting eastern India. Read before you post.

 

[hit&run]

People,

The Brigadier and I have discussed ON LENGTH with the good Captain Lemontree. We have examined issues with such publications as RAND's LIGHTENING OVER WATER and all the British, Canadian, and American Expdetionary Field Manuals. The Brigadier and the good Captain ... and I have enticed the good Major Deltacamelately as well have stated that these publications matches their "pamphlets" (google them since us old dinosaurs are not in a position nor attitude to spoon feed you).

Suffice to say, amateurs think strategy and tactics while professionals think logistics and while some of you have tried to think logistics, it is very amateur logistics.

Berlin Airlift anyone?

Indian army has overwhelming SAM installations on this part of earth. I will post the link OD.

 

[johnee]

So you acknowledge insurgency in Kashmir is indigenous and not Pakistan sponsored

He was talking about Maoists problem and not Kashmir. Why are Pakistanis so obsessed with Kashmir? :blum3:

Yes its all cooked up Militants are irritant but they are not a total threat

What qualifies as threat, janab? From your talk it seems as if even if the militants take over entire Pakistan, you would still refer to them as minor 'irritants'.

 

[p2prada]

You are assuming that PA(which controls Punjab ) and Taliban(which controls other provinces) are against each other. We cant be 100% sure that this assumption is fact. Even if it is, we cant be sure how long it will work that way.

I am assuming PA controls Punjab and Sindh. But, does not have many friends in the other provinces even without the Taliban being involved.

The tribes in Baluchistan, NWFP, Waziristan would love to have their own country and may use Taliban help if the situation permits.

 

[Ray]

ROFL. Ray sirs talking about killing our own(Maoists) afflicting eastern India. Read before you post.

I think you have not got what I wrote.

I said that if the aim was to use heavy weapons and air force to curb dissent as they do in Pakistan and did in Sri Lanka, then we could have finished the Kashmir issue as also the Maoist.

However, that is not our philoophy i.e. butcher people and cause collateral damage where innocents are also killed!

 

[johnee]

I am assuming PA controls Punjab and Sindh. But, does not have many friends in the other provinces even without the Taliban being involved.

The tribes in Baluchistan, NWFP, Waziristan would love to have their own country and may use Taliban help if the situation permits.

I agree broadly with you. My understanding is that Punjab is owned by PA, NWFP by Taliban and other tribes. Balochistan is a conflict zone right now. And there is an intense power struggle in Sindh( between PA, MQM, Taliban....etc).

Though Taliban is in opposition to PA in some places, it is still largely an ally of PA. Its like Lalu and Congress fighting against each other in Bihar but forming a Govt at the center.

 

[Ray]

I am assuming PA controls Punjab and Sindh. But, does not have many friends in the other provinces even without the Taliban being involved.

The tribes in Baluchistan, NWFP, Waziristan would love to have their own country and may use Taliban help if the situation permits.

Actually, I wonder if Pakistan controls Sindh either.

The Mohajirs and the MQM are a thorn on Pakistan's side. The MQM leader had said that the biggest error in history and a blunder was the creation of Pakistan. Now, that is dangerous for Pakistan!

The Balwaristan chaps are also a problem for Pakistan!

 

[Officer of Engineers]

You told of a two pronged attack from Tibet and Pakistan by the Chinese forces.

Good God, are you that stupid? THINK!!!!! I am Canadian Forces while an advid PLA watcher. This piece of info was given to me by a PLA Captain serving as a GHQ S2.

THINK!!!! What are the most probale OPOBJs? To give you more, a brigade has 72 hours combat capabilities, a division 3 days, a corps 5-7 days.

Also, COME ON! Do you really think the Chinese would attack through Pakistan alone, without a supporting Pakistani Army (and I mean Army is in 4-6 divisions).

... Or are you expecting the Chinese and the Pakistanis to be more stupid than mice?

How will the Chinese keep open the supply routes, the spares and all.

Gee, I don't know. How about Pakistan with 4 armies on the border supporting two armies on the front in India?

What use is Airborne troops when no proper air support can be given to it.

What air support is needed on friendly ground? Chinese on Pakistani soil?

The Pakistani front is a totally different kind of warfare and the Tibetian side is a different type of warfare.

ROLLING MY EYES!!!!!! You're going to kill each other, right?

Do the Chinese have experience in fighting wars in totally different terrains and climate? It is easier said than done.

ROLLING MY EYES!!!! YOU'VE GOT TO BE SH!TTING ME!!! The Chinese Civil War, the Korean War, the 1962 Sino-Indo War, the 1960's Air War against Taiwan, the 1970's Spartley Action, the 1979 1st Sino-Vietnam War (the PAVN was rated above the InA at this point btw), the 1984 2nd Sino-VN War, ... and last but not least, the present day Naval Task Force against the Somali Pirates.

Rate them as per technology but in experience, they are not amateurs by any stretch of the imagination.

Even the Chinese Generals think a war with India will result in stale mate and there will be no clear victor.

How about the propaganda victory?

If Pakistan also joins in then the war will be a total destroyer of the Asian economy as Americans and Europeans will grab this chance to break both China and India at the same time.

So tell me why India is willing to risk something that she thinks China would not?

Can you tell me how is China planning to resupply the 15th Airborne troops against some country with credible air defence network?

I've already answered that but I will ask you another question, what makes you think the Chinese are unwilling to lose 30,000 lives for a propaganada victory? Because she has done that TWICE.

 

[Officer of Engineers]

Indian army has overwhelming SAM installations on this part of earth. I will post the link OD.

Not anywhere near close enough reaching the American-Vietnam War level.

 

[p2prada]

I think you have not got what I wrote.

I said that if the aim was to use heavy weapons and air force to curb dissent as they do in Pakistan and did in Sri Lanka, then we could have finished the Kashmir issue as also the Maoist.

However, that is not our philoophy i.e. butcher people and cause collateral damage where innocents are also killed!

I got your point sir. No problems.:113:

Nowhere in the world will you find large scale separatist activities and a free and fair election at the same time like in Kashmir.

 

[hit&run]

I am assuming PA controls Punjab and Sindh. But, does not have many friends in the other provinces even without the Taliban being involved.

The tribes in Baluchistan, NWFP, Waziristan would love to have their own country and may use Taliban help if the situation permits.

Insurgents knows their limited powers, it is very unlikely they will go mad against enemy army. Rather they will wait to bounce back when enemy has retrieved back to rule war torn destabilized provinces.

 

[Adux]

Satish,

Does Pakistan need an invitation to join in a fight with India, The Second front would be a Chinese supports(arms, money etc) Pakistan Army rolling into India from West, and a Chicoms coming down to the East.

OoE,

India is not fighting the Americans nor is Nukes out of the option on a two front war, maybe in a border dispute but not in a two front war.

 

[Officer of Engineers]

India is not fighting the Americans nor is Nukes out of the option on a two front war, maybe in a border dispute but not in a two front war.

A 100 mile maximum penetration either way? Indian Cold Start and Chinese War Zone Campaign? Never mind the Pakistanis, their doctrine is nowhere as complex.

 

[p2prada]

Actually, I wonder if Pakistan controls Sindh either.

The Mohajirs and the MQM are a thorn on Pakistan's side. The MQM leader had said that the biggest error in history and a blunder was the creation of Pakistan. Now, that is dangerous for Pakistan!

The Balwaristan chaps are also a problem for Pakistan!

I guess, these guys pose more of a political, cultural and ideological problems for PA rather than military unlike the other tribes. Still quite significant.

 

[hit&run]

Not anywhere near close enough reaching the American-Vietnam War level.

i am talking about peace time and it is only with Indian army. Indian air force has its own SAM installments;(but significantly less then Indian army). and these are difficult to google earth for Pakistan and Superiorly equipped chines surveillance due to nature of terrains.

 

[johnee]

Good God, are you that stupid? THINK!!!!! I am Canadian Forces while an advid PLA watcher. This piece of info was given to me by a PLA Captain serving as a GHQ S2.

THINK!!!! What are the most probale OPOBJs? To give you more, a brigade has 72 hours combat capabilities, a division 3 days, a corps 5-7 days.

Also, COME ON! Do you really think the Chinese would attack through Pakistan alone, without a supporting Pakistani Army (and I mean Army is in 4-6 divisions).

... Or are you expecting the Chinese and the Pakistanis to be more stupid than mice?

Gee, I don't know. How about Pakistan with 4 armies on the border supporting two armies on the front in India?

What air support is needed on friendly ground? Chinese on Pakistani soil?

ROLLING MY EYES!!!!!! You're going to kill each other, right?

ROLLING MY EYES!!!! YOU'VE GOT TO BE SH!TTING ME!!! The Chinese Civil War, the Korean War, the 1962 Sino-Indo War, the 1960's Air War against Taiwan, the 1970's Spartley Action, the 1979 1st Sino-Vietnam War (the PAVN was rated above the InA at this point btw), the 1984 2nd Sino-VN War, ... and last but not least, the present day Naval Task Force against the Somali Pirates.

Rate them as per technology but in experience, they are not amateurs by any stretch of the imagination.

How about the propaganda victory?

So tell me why India is willing to risk something that she thinks China would not?

I've already answered that but I will ask you another question, what makes you think the Chinese are unwilling to lose 30,000 lives for a propaganada victory? Because she has done that TWICE.

Sir,
you seem to be suggesting that the main objective of China would be a propaganda victory. India wouldnt care if China gets a propaganda victory as long as India doesnt lose land. India goes to war for land(and therefore border dispute is a very sensitive issue for India) unlike China (which you claim) goes to war for propaganda. But if you are saying that China would want to achieve their propaganda victory by grabbing Indian land then there is a conflict (which can escalate to any degree). Otherwise, India wouldnt really mind a stalemate which China declares as a self-victory.
India's concern is China's imperial ambitions of Arunachal Pradesh(or some other place in North East India).

 

[Adux]

OoE,

PAVM rated above InA, I beg to differ. 1962 war is not a barometer on India, though we gladly accept defeat to correct our mistakes. Mao/Hua/Deng would have rolled into India if he thought Indians were such a easy targets, just like he went into Vietnam to teach them a lesson. To be honest the Chinese got off easy in 1962 because of Indian Political ineptitude.

 

[Officer of Engineers]

i am talking about peace time and it is only with Indian army. Indian air force has its own SAM installments;(but significantly less then Indian army).

Forgive me but I've already gone through this on WAB. The Chinese are relying on aircraft for their deep strikes. They're relying on ballistic missile batteries ... and I am not going to provide proof for the uimpteenth time of their doctrine but suffice to say, expect 3-6 500lb bombs on any target they choose.

Other than that, their birds have only one job - to keep your birds from sh!tting on their bellycrawlers and while they are flying, they will do exactly that.

 

[p2prada]

At OOE,

Sir are you considering the Chinese to airlift the 15th Airborne across India into Pakistan or into Pakistan across the CAR or into India, say Arunachal Pradesh or Assam.

Also, Satish is indicating Chinese experience in fighting a war in the mountains.

 

[Officer of Engineers]

OoE,

PAVM rated above InA, I beg to differ. 1962 war is not a barometer on India, though we gladly accept defeat to correct our mistakes. Mao would have rolled into India if he thought Indians were such a easy targets, just like he went into Vietnam to teach them a lesson. To be honest the Chinese got off easy in 1962 because of Indian Political ineptitude.

Oh come on Adux, this is me! I told you exactly where the Chinese went wrong in 1962. Their battle momentum overtook their battle discipline.

But that is not the point. The point was the world thought Vietnam was a tougher army than India and after 30 years of continous war, they may have a point. After all, they beat the French, the Americans, and then proceed to give the Chinese a bloody nose, an army you admit defeat to.

Now, I know the reality is completely different but you know I treat history with extreme respect. And the history was the that PAVN was RATED, NOT better than the InA.