If India has to go for a two fronts war against China and Pakistan...

[ajay_ijn]

Yes I agree we have alot of Taliban but what I am saying is that as long as India stay away from Pakistan otherwise these will also be your problem too. And record in Kashmir shows India not very successful in handling these militants. However they are on the run in Swat.

At one time the rest of world was discussing what would be fate of Pakistan and nuclear weapons if taliban marches into islamabad and overthrows the govt. Taliban spread out of tribal areas, occupied new districts, abuducted police, special forces, occupied police stations, implemented sharia law. almost nothing like that goes on in Kashmir, no tribal areas, no control of tribal leaders, no rag tag milita taking over district after district, imposing religious law.if infiltration from Pakistan ends, kashmir will be peaceful again.

 

[hit&run]

http://www.defenceforum.in/forum/strategy-tactics/4012-insight-pakistan-nuclear-strategy.html
why nuclear war should be out of the scenario.........?

 

[musalman]

Mussalman,

I think you have missed what I had written about Kashmir.

We do not use Air, armed helicopters, Drones, artillery or armour to fight insurgency since their will be collateral damage and innocents will die too!

You do as was seen/ and still is in vogue in Baloshistan and SWOT.

If one uses the weapons systems and weapon platform what Pakistan is using, then surely anyone will be on the run!

Sri Lanka is an excellent example where it was taken as a 'war' and not an 'insurgency' with all weapon systems or platforms used. We are all aware of the result.

I agree but who stops u using these in your war.

At one time the rest of world was discussing what would be fate of Pakistan and nuclear weapons if taliban marches into islamabad and overthrows the govt. Taliban spread out of tribal areas, occupied new districts, abuducted police, special forces, occupied police stations, implemented sharia law. almost nothing like that goes on in Kashmir, no tribal areas, no control of tribal leaders, no rag tag milita taking over district after district, imposing religious law.if infiltration from Pakistan ends, kashmir will be peaceful again.

To be honest Islamabad is in threat was first used by Mushraf and then by Zarardri in order to get military aid from the west. Islamabad to be honest and not even Abbottabad and Haripur are in danger of these militants.
Taliban were allowed to do these things till army started the action. If US can use us why can't we :blum3:

 

[Ray]

I agree but who stops u using these in your war.


To be honest Islamabad is in threat was first used by Mushraf and then by Zarardri in order to get military aid from the west. Islamabad to be honest and not even Abbottabad and Haripur are in danger of these militants.
Taliban were allowed to do these things till army started the action. If US can use us why can't we :blum3:

No one has stopped India from doing so, except that it is not our philosophy to butcher (if I may use the word for the want of a better word) against misguided elements. Even the Moaist threat can be solved this way, but we can butcher our own.

Wins the hearts and mind!

Are you saying that there is no threat from the Taliban and instead it is cooked up story?

well, I can't comment on that. You would know better.

 

[johnee]

To be honest Islamabad is in threat was first used by Mushraf and then by Zarardri in order to get military aid from the west. Islamabad to be honest and not even Abbottabad and Haripur are in danger of these militants.
Taliban were allowed to do these things till army started the action. If US can use us why can't we :blum3:

So, the same old 'bargaining with gun to your own head' worked for Pakistan. I wonder why US(or anyone else) is so concerned about Pakistan's stability(nukes or no nukes)? Why is US so concerned about Pakistan? I am not convinced that US cant just denuke Pak, instead of giving so much aid to keep it afloat artificially.

 

[Officer of Engineers]

Okay, people, scratch the nuclear option OFF the table, at less than 200 warheads per country (India, China, Pakistan), NONE is going to spend a single nuke over a pittily little squat as a border dispute. I am not going to find the links for Nuclear Warfare 101, 102, 103, you can google them yourselves but suffice to say, you guys know absolutely SQUAT ALL, Company, Battalion, Brigade, and Divisional Staff not included of course.

I am extremely sure the Brigadier has informed his comrades of my discovery of the 1980s incident - that China was preparing a two front OFFENSIVE, that's right gentlement, a two front ATTACK, through Tibet AND Pakistan.

Just by looking at the map, I see a very easy counter ... in which none of you has ... or too stupid to see (and I am thinking the latter). Fall back 60 miles on the Tibet front and 100 miles on the Pakistani Front and you will DESTROY TWO armies and I mean Armies as in 60,000 men per Army.

But from what is written, you would rather lose a million Indians than to lose 1 inch of Indian soil.

 

[tharikiran]

Till the last day, the Pakistani diplomats and strategists were arguing that Taliban is not a threat to Islamabad while they occupied Buner. These guys were saying , the distance is not as the crow flies. We have stuck the peace deal.

US places it's foot down and yo comes the U-turn.The rest we all know.
Now, you guys say, it was a strategy to milk money .

 

[SATISH]

Okay, people, scratch the nuclear option OFF the table, at less than 200 warheads per country (India, China, Pakistan), NONE is going to spend a single nuke over a pittily little squat as a border dispute. I am not going to find the links for Nuclear Warfare 101, 102, 103, you can google them yourselves but suffice to say, you guys know absolutely SQUAT ALL, Company, Battalion, Brigade, and Divisional Staff not included of course.

I am extremely sure the Brigadier has informed his comrades of my discovery of the 1980s incident - that China was preparing a two front OFFENSIVE, that's right gentlement, a two front ATTACK, through Tibet AND Pakistan.

Just by looking at the map, I see a very easy counter ... in which none of you has ... or too stupid to see (and I am thinking the latter). Fall back 60 miles on the Tibet front and 100 miles on the Pakistani Front and you will DESTROY TWO armies and I mean Armies as in 60,000 men per Army.

But from what is written, you would rather lose a million Indians than to lose 1 inch of Indian soil.

And can you tell me what would have happened if we had interfered and captured PoK and cut off the Chinese supplies? What you are telling might have happened in the 80s but right now any army movement can be easily discovered. The only major road for the Chinese into Pakistan is the Karakorum Highway. And you have to go only through it. A blockade can be established in between and trust me the Chinese will be sitting ducks in the Pakistani side without resupply.

 

[p2prada]

I agree but who stops u using these in your war.


To be honest Islamabad is in threat was first used by Mushraf and then by Zarardri in order to get military aid from the west. Islamabad to be honest and not even Abbottabad and Haripur are in danger of these militants.
Taliban were allowed to do these things till army started the action. If US can use us why can't we :blum3:

And Peshawar isn't?

You clearly have only 2 provinces in your control. Punjab and Sindh. All the other provinces are way too messed up and are a liability. Don't expect Taliban not to utilize any possibilities of unrest.

 

[Officer of Engineers]

And can you tell me what would have happened if we had interfered and captured PoK and cut off the Chinese supplies?

That's not really Chinese responsibilties, is it?

What you are telling might have happened in the 80s but right now any army movement can be easily discovered.

You mean to tell me that in my time that I can't tell the movement of 30,000 men, a single corps, let alone an army, 60,000 men?

The only major road for the Chinese into Pakistan is the Karakorum Highway. And you have to go only through it. A blockade can be established in between and trust me the Chinese will be sitting ducks in the Pakistani side without resupply.

The 15th Airborne Corps. Look it up.

 

[johnee]

And Peshawar isn't?

You clearly have only 2 provinces in your control. Punjab and Sindh. All the other provinces are way too messed up and are a liability. Don't expect Taliban not to utilize any possibilities of unrest.

You are assuming that PA(which controls Punjab ) and Taliban(which controls other provinces) are against each other. We cant be 100% sure that this assumption is fact. Even if it is, we cant be sure how long it will work that way.

 

[SATISH]

That's not really Chinese responsibilties, is it?

You mean to tell me that in my time that I can't tell the movement of 30,000 men, a single corps, let alone an army, 60,000 men?

The 15th Airborne Corps. Look it up.

You told of a two pronged attack from Tibet and Pakistan by the Chinese forces. How will the Chinese keep open the supply routes, the spares and all. What use is Airborne troops when no proper air support can be given to it. The Pakistani front is a totally different kind of warfare and the Tibetian side is a different type of warfare. Do the Chinese have experience in fighting wars in totally different terrains and climate? It is easier said than done. Even the Chinese Generals think a war with India will result in stale mate and there will be no clear victor. If Pakistan also joins in then the war will be a total destroyer of the Asian economy as Americans and Europeans will grab this chance to break both China and India at the same time. Can you tell me how is China planning to resupply the 15th Airborne troops against some country with credible air defence network?

 

[Officer of Engineers]

People,

The Brigadier and I have discussed ON LENGTH with the good Captain Lemontree. We have examined issues with such publications as RAND's LIGHTENING OVER WATER and all the British, Canadian, and American Expdetionary Field Manuals. The Brigadier and the good Captain ... and I have enticed the good Major Deltacamelately as well have stated that these publications matches their "pamphlets" (google them since us old dinosaurs are not in a position nor attitude to spoon feed you).

Suffice to say, amateurs think strategy and tactics while professionals think logistics and while some of you have tried to think logistics, it is very amateur logistics.

Berlin Airlift anyone?

 

[Adux]

India was at her weakest in 1980's, so a two front war from China is quite a possible scenario, but at the same time Russians were also in Afghanistan, and US in Pakistan. Any chinese attack would have made it a big mess, and Russia was looking for reason get into China.
India is far more powerful, by quantum leaps and China is in position to play her old games, the opportune time has passed her by. The Strategic and On Ground Tactical Battlespace management cannot be explained by civvies, So throwing that on their face is a bit unfair. All the while I ponder on wether there is such a situation in which Indian Army can move into Chinese territory and create the Battle. Why do we always assume Indians are on a defensive posture; or why should be battle fought in our homes, rather than in their homes, if so what would be best location for it. How far can Indians move into Tibet. Before our advance will be halted

And I am aware of Stuart Slade 101, 102 and 103. But the point of discussion here, is not a border skirmish, but a two front war, and Nukes will be used in such a case,

 

[musalman]

No one has stopped India from doing so, except that it is not our philosophy to butcher (if I may use the word for the want of a better word) against misguided elements. Even the Moaist threat can be solved this way, but we can butcher our own.

Wins the hearts and mind!

Are you saying that there is no threat from the Taliban and instead it is cooked up story?

well, I can't comment on that. You would know better.

So you acknowledge insurgency in Kashmir is indigenous and not Pakistan sponsored

Yes its all cooked up Militants are irritant but they are not a total threat

 

[p2prada]

Just by looking at the map, I see a very easy counter ... in which none of you has ... or too stupid to see (and I am thinking the latter). Fall back 60 miles on the Tibet front and 100 miles on the Pakistani Front and you will DESTROY TWO armies and I mean Armies as in 60,000 men per Army.

I don't understand the nuances of war as well as you sir. Won't losing 60 miles of our natural barrier be a strategic folly?

On the western front, we may have to do what you said sector wise which was the case in the 1971 war. We lost ground here, gained some ground elsewhere. A 100 mile withdrawal will mean handing over some of our cities like Srinagar and Amritsar to the Pakistanis. Also, bring the enemy closer to our strategic Jaisalamer airbase in Rajasthan.

But from what is written, you would rather lose a million Indians than to lose 1 inch of Indian soil.

Fact is, any war we fight will not last long. International pressure is the main culprit. So, we will think about taking as much of the enemy territory as possible for post war dialogue. Land always has its own charm.

 

[johnee]

All the while I ponder on wether there is such a situation in which Indian Army can move into Chinese territory and create the Battle. Why do we always assume Indians are on a defensive posture; or why should be battle fought in our homes, rather than in their homes, if so what would be best location for it. How far can Indians move into Tibet. Before our advance will be halted

Adux,
I have always wondered of the same. But the rationalisation is our leadership. Even Indira Gandhi went to East Pakistan only after large scale migration. And she was supposed to be the most daring of the bunch. I have little hope from the present leadership that they can manage to be aggressive. If they allow our armed forces to defend us properly without interference than that in itself would be a great feat by our political class.

Of course, if we are assuming that the conflict is atleast two decades away, then we can hinge our hopes on next gen of leaders.

 

[hit&run]

So you acknowledge insurgency in Kashmir is indigenous and not Pakistan sponsored

Yes its all cooked up Militants are irritant but they are not a total threat

well, you can pick any line which suits you. You can not rule out pakistan content of any kind in Kashmir insurgency at all, that the truth.
pardon to interrupt ur conversation with Ray.

 

[Adux]

So you acknowledge insurgency in Kashmir is indigenous and not Pakistan sponsored

Yes its all cooked up Militants are irritant but they are not a total threat

Unlike the Ummahsoldiers of Pak-jab he is talking about Maoist.

 

[Ray]

So you acknowledge insurgency in Kashmir is indigenous and not Pakistan sponsored

Yes its all cooked up Militants are irritant but they are not a total threat

The JKLF, operating out of Pakistan, are Kashmiris.

The Let and others are Pakistanis and also the out of work motley Islamist fundamentalist crowd who were in Afghanistan, again sponsored by Pakistan!

If heavy weapons are used, then they will surely die, but so will inocent Kashmiris.

The Sri lankan offensive created havoc on its own population and not all Sri Lankan Tamils were for Pirabhakaran! Such people also died!