IAF Mirage 2000

[rock45]

Sorry for the basic question but have contracts really been signed? Has work started? I never know with this project its kind of going on for two or three years now.

On one hand I'm Mirage fan I can see spending the money and doing the upgrade you have the frames.

On the other hand it's like an old car yes you can find the parts and fix but its still an old model. If your going to buy 126 new aircraft you might as well go all the way and go new. Maybe with the saved money buy a few more directly from the builder which is the route I think India should go with anyway.

I always like to start basic what will your enemies be flying and go from there.
China mostly likely some form of a J-10 Block-II, J-11B, Su-30MK.
Pakistan Block-52 Vipers, hopefully 36 or less because I wouldn't sell them another one that's for sure, some form of J-10 as well. It strange I may be wrong but I just feel the JF-17 project is not going to work out. It would help them replace J-7, Mirage ROSE, but just don't feel China going to come through on their end unless for some reason real FC-1 request come in.

For its size fuel load, weapons load, the Mirage 2000 comes up a little short and because of its size it lacks future. I think the days of older type aircraft types carrying over and being useful are over in modern combat. Its a dead model meaning the maker isn't producing more. Instead of spending more on a dead end type use them the way India uses their Mig-21 and move on.

In mock fights and training Mig-21 bison are useful but remember the fighting or training is in a set block of sky. Put 4 missiles on it and go military speed a few times and there be looking to land pretty soon with bingo fuel, at least using the Mirage 2000s in this role India will get more out of them.

Its just time to move on any real fighting using this platform Mig-21 must take place close to its base. I would only do mid level upgrades on the 40/50 Mirage 2000 India has and just replace then Mig-21 straight up. Doesn't the AA-12 have more range then the radar that's in the Bison anyway or close to it? Replacing the Mig-21s was basically how the aircraft bid started anyway right and then kind of grew a little.

Can't wait until finally makes a choice on the aircraft 126 purchase bid.

 

[Singh]

Sorry for the basic question but have contracts really been signed? Has work started? I never know with this project its kind of going on for two or three years now.

Final contract yet to be signed

On one hand I'm Mirage fan I can see spending the money and doing the upgrade you have the frames.
On the other hand it's like an old car yes you can find the parts and fix but its still an old model. If your going to buy 126 new aircraft you might as well go all the way and go new. Maybe with the saved money buy a few more directly from the builder which is the route I think India should go with anyway.

concisely,

1. It will take at least decade for IAF to properly exploit and setup infra for the new MMRCA post induction. M2K OTH has been in service for the last 2 decades. Training with French Air Force, usage in combat zones has helped IAF properly exploit its performance, and not to forget proper infra for M2k is already setup.

2. IAF is extremely happy with M2k's mr performance, MMRCA was in fact a contract to buy 200 of these birds. Its also comparatively cheaper to operate than MKIs.

3. A capable proven platform is required in service to counter sophisticated crafts being inducted in neighbouring air forces as MMRCA will take over 15-20 years to induct. Depleting numbers also mean that quality has to be upped.

For its size fuel load, weapons load, the Mirage 2000 comes up a little short and because of its size it lacks future.

I think the days of older type aircraft types carrying over and being useful are over in modern combat.

Its a dead model meaning the maker isn't producing more.

Instead of spending more on a dead end type use them the way India uses their Mig-21 and move on.

Tejas is smaller than M2k. Drop tanks, IFR allow it to fly extended ranges. Its weapons load is second largest amongst IAF craft. M2k9 can carry some 6.3 tons which is very respectable.

M2k9 is amongst the most capable and cost effective MRCA flying today. Many of the technologies as a development of rafale have been incorporated in m2k, m2k can carry most weapons carried by rafale, it can also be retrofit with nextgen avionics and weapons(aesa radars, targetting pods, astra, mica etc).

Mirage 2000 was introduced the same year as flanker, 1 year after Mig-29,8 years after F-15, 6 years after F-16 if wiki is to be believed.

French wound up M2k to promote Rafale. In fact french offered production lines of M2k to India but the govt delays and introduction of rafale cut short those plans.

 

[rock45]

Strong points

Hi Singh
Being a Mirage 2000 fan there are some perks. I totally agree with your decade time line I didn't want to sound like I was bashing India's Air Force but they just take too long. Drives me crazy and yes even if they ordered Rafale, Hornets, Vipers, etc today it would be many years before reaching active squadrons.

The single engine operational cost is big and quick turn around times are another good French fighter trait. Tooling equipment, trained maintenance personnel, pilot pool to draw from, all pluses. My personnel opinion I wished India would have picked the Mirage 2000-5 something like six or seven years ago India's AF seem to love this aircraft.

I have a Greece friend who swears his country's pilots claim its the better dog fighter then the Viper, the Viper needs the fight to go longer. Better power in the long turn turns and the Viper takes back the edge beside the first pass at each other he says the Viper the better all around platform. He wishes his country had more Block-52. Do you know that Greece's Mirage 2000-5 aren't anti-ship missile capable? They have to maintain the older Mirage 2000's for that duty, strange.

Sorry got off track my point was if India went the Mirage 2000-5 route they match up very well against Pakistan's Vipers, and wouldn't be losing anything. So matching or even slightly better then your enemies best without even using your MKI Flankers and India's looking good.

As crazy as it sounds cutting cost and going with UAE ex-Mirage 2000-5/9 teamed with your MKI Flanker India would be set. Two types of missiles to make it harder on your enemy to train for. India could save billions of dollars and still have a much better Air Force then anybody around them and focus on the future 5th generation.

India Air Force could then cut or retired older type aircraft types saving India even more money.

 

[Singh]

I didn't want to sound like I was bashing India's Air Force but they just take too long.

umm.. no one is stopping you from bashing IAF because of their goofups, though MoD is also to be blamed for this.

My personnel opinion I wished India would have picked the Mirage 2000-5 something like six or seven years ago

they did, 8 years back..

Do you know that Greece's Mirage 2000-5 aren't anti-ship missile capable? They have to maintain the older Mirage 2000's for that duty, strange.

Depends on the role and specs ordered.. for eg. some M2Ks could be used as interceptors, some for maritime strike...

Sorry got off track my point was if India went the Mirage 2000-5 route they match up very well against Pakistan's Vipers, and wouldn't be losing anything. So matching or even slightly better then your enemies best without even using your MKI Flankers and India's looking good.

MKIs are intended as air superiority fighters ie in case of a war, they will be the ones in the enemy airspace, M2K are used as interceptors, attack crafts.

As crazy as it sounds cutting cost and going with UAE ex-Mirage 2000-5/9 teamed with your MKI Flanker India would be set.

iirc 12 qatari m2k5's were on offer, iaf rejected it on cost grounds.

Two types of missiles to make it harder on your enemy to train for.

please explain ?

 

[rock45]

Missile types

Two types of missiles to make it harder on your enemy to train for.
please explain ?

When you train to face a foe you know what types of missiles they have in general. Most countries have one BVR type some have more but most have one front line fighter meaning one missile type that goes along with it. Having two makes it a little harder on your opponent until he knows what type of aircraft he facing.

You force your opponent to train against both types thus causing more resources to be used and splits training times as well. Maybe one type of jamming device is use for one missile and another for a different type? How a pilot defends against one type may not work against a different? Not a big thing in general but just makes the other guy thinks/work a little harder.

they did, 8 years back..

India didn't pick as for the 126 aircraft bid that's what I was talking about. I thought India bought the first batch of Mirages becuase they were displeased with the Mig-29s? It was a pressure tactic used on Russia to get them to fix and service the Fulcrums better, kind of a way to force Russia hand a little to work better with India.

I think in a way please correct me if I'm wrong it forced India to get better at maintenance and servicing their own aircraft. I once read a few articles about India setting up service centers and doing their own deep overhauls on Mig-23 and Mig-29s, and doing better then the Russian and cheaper too.

About reject the UAE Mirages you get what you pay for look at the important sub systems on the MKI Flankers, there not Russian. I think Indian pilots would kill to fly Vipers, Hornets, Rafale's etc. Engine life's are longer, better weapon selections, lower maintenance, better cockpit layout in general, to me your best Russian aircraft MKI Flankers are customer designed and made. That reflexs more on India knowing what was good and what they needed and it wasn't Russian made, that should tell your MoD something.

The ARRAMS and AESA are tough to beat on proven platforms supported by the best systems money can buy. I know nobody going to beat Russia's prices but again you get what you pay for.

I also don't share a lot faith in Russia PAK or 5th generation so called aircraft project. From a country that just up to producing yet another large heavy Flanker, I don't see the 5th generation type coming down the line so soon.

 

[Singh]

When you train to face a foe you know what types of missiles they have in general. Most countries have one BVR type some have more but most have one front line fighter meaning one missile type that goes along with it. Having two makes it a little harder on your opponent until he knows what type of aircraft he facing.

You force your opponent to train against both types thus causing more resources to be used and splits training times as well. Maybe one type of jamming device is use for one missile and another for a different type? How a pilot defends against one type may not work against a different? Not a big thing in general but just makes the other guy thinks/work a little harder.

you don't train for a particular type of BVRAAM AFAIK.
Further, PAF is probably not exposed to the BVRAAMs in IAF service and nor PAF fleet operates BVRs (except rumouredly AIM-54s? ) So for them to practise BVRAAM evasion which they don't have technical proficiency over is challenging as it is.

India didn't pick as for the 126 aircraft bid that's what I was talking about.

IAF wanted to buy more Mirage2k as part of a MRCA requirement post Kargil, India took too much time to decide and Dassault withdrew M2k and instead offered Rafale which resulted in MMRCA competition.

I thought India bought the first batch of Mirages becuase they were displeased with the Mig-29s? It was a pressure tactic used on Russia to get them to fix and service the Fulcrums better, kind of a way to force Russia hand a little to work better with India.

Mig 29s were inducted as air superiority crafts. M2ks as a counter to PAF's f-16s. Though there is a huge controversy regarding induction of floggers inplace of M2ks.

I think in a way please correct me if I'm wrong it forced India to get better at maintenance and servicing their own aircraft. I once read a few articles about India setting up service centers and doing their own deep overhauls on Mig-23 and Mig-29s, and doing better then the Russian and cheaper too.

post Soviet collapse, India found it exceedingly difficult to source quality parts and spares, hence.

About reject the UAE Mirages you get what you pay for look at the important sub systems on the MKI Flankers, there not Russian.

Qatari M2ks were offered IIRC.

I think Indian pilots would kill to fly Vipers, Hornets, Rafale's etc.

no MKI pilot would give it up for flying Hornets, Vipers or Rafales. :vehicle_plane:

Engine life's are longer, better weapon selections, lower maintenance, better cockpit layout in general, to me your best Russian aircraft MKI Flankers are customer designed and made. That reflexs more on India knowing what was good and what they needed and it wasn't Russian made, that should tell your MoD something.

MKI was a result of excellent Indo-Russian/Israeli/French understanding.
Even Israelis add a lot of their own subsystems/weapons to American planes.
It all boils down to the customer.

The ARRAMS and AESA are tough to beat on proven platforms supported by the best systems money can buy. I know nobody going to beat Russia's prices but again you get what you pay for.

IAF doesn't have unlimited cash like USAF, adders are worthy competitors to Amraams, meteors will be made available to IAF too. AESA is a new gen tech but it doesn't mean a PESA radar cannot beat AESA in performance? compare an Irbis-E Pesa with a Zhuk or RBE Aesa for eg.

I also don't share a lot faith in Russia PAK or 5th generation so called aircraft project. From a country that just up to producing yet another large heavy Flanker, I don't see the 5th generation type coming down the line so soon.

let's wait and watch

 

[Singh]

Doesn't the AA-12 have more range then the radar that's in the Bison anyway or close to it?

aa-12 relies on active radar guidance and maximum range is rarely achieved and is calculated assuming head on chase at altitude against a non maneuverable high rcs target.
do you think SU30mki or jaguar's radar have 300km+ range ? then how will they carry Brahmos or Harpoons ?

 

[SATISH]

Mirage 2000 Upgrade

LiveFist: Heart of the IAF Mirage-2000 Upgrade

 

[John]

aa-12 relies on active radar guidance and maximum range is rarely achieved and is calculated assuming head on chase at altitude against a non maneuverable high rcs target.
do you think SU30mki or jaguar's radar have 300km+ range ? then how will they carry Brahmos or Harpoons ?

The Mki's radar can spot very large ships at over 350km, good for the Brahmos, the harpoon block 3 has a range of over 120km, the ELTA 2032 which will be the primary radar for the maritime Jag has 160nm or around 300km range for large ships good enough for harpoon firing. And how come we are getting the RDY-2 radar instead of the RDY-3 for the mirage?? why are we going for something that isn't so new??

 

[p2prada]

The Mki's radar can spot very large ships at over 350km, good for the Brahmos, the harpoon block 3 has a range of over 120km, the ELTA 2032 which will be the primary radar for the maritime Jag has 160nm or around 300km range for large ships good enough for harpoon firing. And how come we are getting the RDY-2 radar instead of the RDY-3 for the mirage?? why are we going for something that isn't so new??

The RDY-2 radar is far better than the RDY-3. The RDY-3 is what is being offered to India. The RDY-3 is also called RC-400 and is also being offered for Pak JF-17. RDY-3 has reduced strike capabilities.

 

[Sridhar]

More details

LiveFist: More Stuff on the IAF Mirage-2000 Upgrade

LiveFist: Heart of the IAF Mirage-2000 Upgrade

 

[venom]

Instead Of upgrading A Mirage-2000 we can purchase A BRAND NEW MIG-35.......Why spend 40 million Dollars per plane just for upgrading an old airframe....?

 

[Dark Sorrow]

Instead Of upgrading A Mirage-2000 we can purchase A BRAND NEW MIG-35.......Why spend 40 million Dollars per plane just for upgrading an old airframe....?

What about the time and money taken to bring Mig-35 to good standard.

 

[venom]

Do u think a mirage -2000 will be upgraded in a fortnight....?

It will take almost 2 yrs to upgrade 51 Mirage-2000 & in 2 yrs Around 30-35 Mig-35 can b manufactured......Think over it, No doubt Mirage-2000 is a good fighter but u can never modify Rx-100 to be R-15...

 

[shreekash]

I think we have had enough of russian products, Mirage has a proven record and I think its worth.

 

[SATISH]

Trust me man gimme a RX 100 I will beat a R 15 anyday. Things do not work in the defence industry as you think. The Mirage 2000 which is the most pilot friendly aircraft in IAF. The Rafale has more chances as they are from the makers of Mirage 2000. And the MiG 29 cant come close to the Mirage when it comes to serious multirole missions.

 

[venom]

I think we have had enough of russian products, Mirage has a proven record and I think its worth.

Just take out the russian products out of Iaf & c what is left.....

& from the next time try 2 explain ur point.....

 

[kuku]

This upgrade should have happened around 2000-2002, its seems to be a decade late.

The AF needs the upgrade at any cost, as someone said before the MMRCA will start induction around 2013 and it will be a long time before the infra is set up and the numbers are there to make it a effective fighter for the AF.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

Firstly Mig-35 use Mig-29's airframe thus we should not except a lot from it. Mig-35 is not yet completely developed and many of its sub-system are under-development.
M2k is a matured and battle tested weapon while the Mig-35 is yet to be operational.
Any person would like a operational system to be upgraded rather than a prototype one. M2k can be made easily superior to the Mig. IAF also wanted more M2k rather than MMRCA.

 

[SATISH]

I guess the upgrade of Mirage 2000 to the Dash 5/9 standards will give us the edge in high altitude bombing missions. The Mirage 2000 is the only true multi role aircraft that we have got in our Arsenal. Good care must be taken to have them until the replacement (hope the MCA is ready before that) comes. I would also suggest we must buy the UAE Mirages to deny Pakistan these beasts and retire more of our MiG 21s which are ageing.