IAF Mirage 2000

jackprince

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Ya'll Nibbiars paisa Higa to give what you can do on 4 billion dollar capital budget of the IAF. And need atleats 10 billion dollars budget to induct 1,000 modern jets in a decade to counter the Mlecchas but again can't do that without Increasing the over all budget. And troop reduction is again a trap by the liberals like the west. We need to maintain the current firce strength and increase the budget to modernize It's.
If we start wasting money on outdated jets for the sake of fleet strength alone, don't cuss if during battles they become dropping flies swatted by the much advanced adversaries!

We need our edges be kept sharp. even if the sword is a bit small, it it cuts deeper than a long dull edged sword, the shorter one should be more preferred.

I wouldn't have objected had Super Sukhois are being churned out right now. But that seems to be forever in back burner. Hell, I heard of supposed Super Sukhoi upgrades when I joined this forum in 2006, if I am not wrong! What happened since in last 14+ years?!!!! Our main force of Sukhois still fly with Bars PESA radars and without missile approach warning systems? They are effectively near sighted in modern day war scenario!

Yet, we are going to buy more of the same to maintain our fleet strength. What logic is that?
 

Covfefe

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If we start wasting money on outdated jets for the sake of fleet strength alone, don't cuss if during battles they become dropping flies swatted by the much advance adversaries!

We need our edges be kept sharp. even if the sword is a bit small, it it cuts deeper than a long dull edged sword, the shorter one should be more preferred.

I wouldn't have objected had Super Sukhois are being churned out right now. But that seems to be forever in back burner. Hell, I heard of supposed Super Sukhoi upgrades when I joined this forum in 2006, if I am not wrong! What happened since in last 14+ years?!!!! Our main force of Sukhois still fly with Bars PESA radars and without missile approach warning systems? They are effectively near sighted in modern day war scenario!

Yet, we are going to buy more of the same to maintain our fleet strength. What logic is that?
- This Mirage Sale is mostly a scavenger hunt. 31 million USD in the larger scheme of things is peanuts if we look at the upside of keeping the Mirage fleet alive.

- Super Sukhois- advanced RWR integration orders are already placed for a batch is what Saurav Jha stated in the yday's update. Let Uttam Mk2 be certified for Tejas first, only then we can go for a scaled-up version for Su 30s. It won't be a one-shot upgrade program like Super Sukhois of Russia, but a piecemeal implementation of various components starting with RWR.
 

jackprince

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- This Mirage Sale is mostly a scavenger hunt. 31 million USD in the larger scheme of things is peanuts if we look at the upside of keeping the Mirage fleet alive.

- Super Sukhois- advanced RWR integration orders are already placed for a batch is what Saurav Jha stated in the yday's update. Let Uttam Mk2 be certified for Tejas first, only then we can go for a scaled-up version for Su 30s. It won't be a one-shot upgrade program like Super Sukhois of Russia, but a piecemeal implementation of various components starting with RWR.
Nuh, me & @Haldilal nibbiar aren't talking about the recent scavenging deal. We are talking about the acquiring 2nd hand Quatari mirages and such other deals. Those will be operational fighters.

And, bro, that piecemeal upgradation has already taken forever to come and god knows how long it will take to complete in all aspect for the whole fleet.

It is common sense to get more Rafales in less price, if Rafale is indeed as capable as advertised by the IAF itself.
 

Covfefe

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Nuh, me & @Haldilal nibbiar aren't talking about the recent scavenging deal. We are talking about the acquiring 2nd hand Quatari mirages and such other deals. Those will be operational fighters.

And, bro, that piecemeal upgradation has already taken forever to come and god knows how long it will take to complete in all aspect for the whole fleet.

It is common sense to get more Rafales in less price, if Rafale is indeed as capable as advertised by the IAF itself.
Agree that Qatari Mirages are obsolete, but we also have to look at what our adversary will pitch against us in a 2 front scenario. Qatari Mirages can effectively challenge PAF's F16 A/B variants and JF17 Block I and II, PLAAF's J7/J10 A/B, Su27/J11. I mean, they are not the best in class but we have to make up the numbers too. How cheap/expensive these Qatari jets are, should dictate how effective our decision will be.

For Sukhoi upgrade delays- no two thoughts there. It has been delayed for far too long. In fact, our entire defence capabilities were kicked by a decade during the last regime (no political overtures here but Antony has to be the worst Raksha Mantri ever).

Rafale orders- I guess IAF is taking its learning from the Sukhoi orders. Instead of giving one huge order of 100+ jets, they are giving in phases so that the OEM has incentives to sell upgraded platforms. By the time our last Sukhois were manufactured, the technologies were already obsolete. Nowadays, obsolescence happens at a faster rate. IAF, in my opinion, will order the F4 variants once they fly. Mid-life upgrades from a foreign vendor cost a bomb.
 

Flying Dagger

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Nuh, me & @Haldilal nibbiar aren't talking about the recent scavenging deal. We are talking about the acquiring 2nd hand Quatari mirages and such other deals. Those will be operational fighters.

And, bro, that piecemeal upgradation has already taken forever to come and god knows how long it will take to complete in all aspect for the whole fleet.

It is common sense to get more Rafales in less price, if Rafale is indeed as capable as advertised by the IAF itself.

The UAE got upgraded Mirage that we can lookout for..

We are already upgrading our Mirage fleet and we have our own aesa in advanced stage which can be modified for Mirage too if need arise.

Let's not forget Mirage is still a formidable fighter jet and we are flying Mig 21s and jaguars right now in 100s . If we can possibly replace some with Mirage than why not.

Mirage will be relevant for next 10-15 years easily.
 

johnj

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Agree that Qatari Mirages are obsolete, but we also have to look at what our adversary will pitch against us in a 2 front scenario. Qatari Mirages can effectively challenge PAF's F16 A/B variants and JF17 Block I and II, PLAAF's J7/J10 A/B, Su27/J11. I mean, they are not the best in class but we have to make up the numbers too. How cheap/expensive these Qatari jets are, should dictate how effective our decision will be.

For Sukhoi upgrade delays- no two thoughts there. It has been delayed for far too long. In fact, our entire defence capabilities were kicked by a decade during the last regime (no political overtures here but Antony has to be the worst Raksha Mantri ever).

Rafale orders- I guess IAF is taking its learning from the Sukhoi orders. Instead of giving one huge order of 100+ jets, they are giving in phases so that the OEM has incentives to sell upgraded platforms. By the time our last Sukhois were manufactured, the technologies were already obsolete. Nowadays, obsolescence happens at a faster rate. IAF, in my opinion, will order the F4 variants once they fly. Mid-life upgrades from a foreign vendor cost a bomb.
what if - paf f16 gets upgraded and what makes you think chinese deploy old ones ? buying mirage for spare is not bad. I choose lca mk1a over mirage with 150 km aam and asraam plus standoff weapons similar to what paf doing with jf. netra mk2 increase efficiency of lca plus self developed ones easy to upgrade than foreign ones. outdated mirage cannot replace mig 27, better buy more rafale. 1 rafale can easily replace 1mig27 and mig23 or mig21. HAL need to increase its efficiency.
 

johnj

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The UAE got upgraded Mirage that we can lookout for..

We are already upgrading our Mirage fleet and we have our own aesa in advanced stage which can be modified for Mirage too if need arise.

Let's not forget Mirage is still a formidable fighter jet and we are flying Mig 21s and jaguars right now in 100s . If we can possibly replace some with Mirage than why not.

Mirage will be relevant for next 10-15 years easily.
Expensive and comes with same ammunitions. Why not consider lca mk1a with longrane munitions. within a decade mwf also available. ?
 

Covfefe

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what if - paf f16 gets upgraded and what makes you think chinese deploy old ones ? buying mirage for spare is not bad. I choose lca mk1a over mirage with 150 km aam and asraam plus standoff weapons similar to what paf doing with jf. netra mk2 increase efficiency of lca plus self developed ones easy to upgrade than foreign ones. outdated mirage cannot replace mig 27, better buy more rafale. 1 rafale can easily replace 1mig27 and mig23 or mig21. HAL need to increase its efficiency.
The game of "What if"s never ends- what if PAF and PLAAF made their entire fleet of F22s- well in that case we are screwed in air battles, no two way about it. The US has blocked defence sales to Pak in the recent past, so the only viable option for F16 upgrades is Turkey. Realistically, these Mirages will knock out a lot of the fighters in the adversary's camp from a capability standpoint. At this point, we don't even know at what price point the Mirages from other countries might come so judgement calls would be unfair. With a limited budget and a fleet of 4 squadrons of Mig 21s and 5 squadrons of Jaguar in service, cheaper Mirages are not bad deal.

More Rafale, HAL's capability improvement- I think no one would deny these but without structural changes, these will only remain a pipeline dream.
 

jackprince

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The UAE got upgraded Mirage that we can lookout for..

We are already upgrading our Mirage fleet and we have our own aesa in advanced stage which can be modified for Mirage too if need arise.

Let's not forget Mirage is still a formidable fighter jet and we are flying Mig 21s and jaguars right now in 100s . If we can possibly replace some with Mirage than why not.

Mirage will be relevant for next 10-15 years easily.
UAE wont be replacing their Mirages anytime soon as the replacement F-35 will take long time to reach UAE - likely not before 2027 the deliveries to start. So, UAE mirages will be too old by the time India can purchase them and also, by that time hopefully LCA Mk.2 will start joining the force and AMCA will be just on the horizon.

The upgrade of Mirage fleet already cost an arm and a leg - almost as much as getting new fleet. $2.2 billion for upgrading in a deal dating back in 2011! The Egypt is buying 30 spanking new rafale F4 s in $3.5 billion! There wouldn't be point adding the same cost to more outdated fighters.

Mirage indeed is a formidable fighter, yet its value addition vis-a-vis its potential service life will be less than optimum. Also, Mirages are not comparable to either Mig-21 or Jaguars.

Mig-21s primarily are used for Air patrol only and IAF can't wait to get rid off them as soon as enough no. of LCAs are received.

Jaguars on the other hand perform very different role of CAS and after Mig-27s were retired, it is currently sole aircraft that can do the job of low level nap-of-the-earth flying with enough payload to perform CAS. Rafale too can do that, but who is his right mind would use Rafale for CAS role?

Unless the cost of acquiring and upgrading justifies the relevancy of fighter, it doesn't matter what kind of fighter that is. Procurement of old Mirages and upgrading them would be too costly to justify the expenses.
 
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johnj

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The game of "What if"s never ends- what if PAF and PLAAF made their entire fleet of F22s- well in that case we are screwed in air battles, no two way about it. The US has blocked defence sales to Pak in the recent past, so the only viable option for F16 upgrades is Turkey. Realistically, these Mirages will knock out a lot of the fighters in the adversary's camp from a capability standpoint. At this point, we don't even know at what price point the Mirages from other countries might come so judgement calls would be unfair. With a limited budget and a fleet of 4 squadrons of Mig 21s and 5 squadrons of Jaguar in service, cheaper Mirages are not bad deal.

More Rafale, HAL's capability improvement- I think no one would deny these but without structural changes, these will only remain a pipeline dream.
In that case, paf already having jf 17 with chinese aew and 100km plus aam. also they are deploying new sam systems. f16bk50 better than 2000mk5. last time iaf paid 30/40m per jet upgrade. lca mk1a can easily beat mirage and one advantage of mirage is their range plus speed. in the case of chinese, s400, su35, j20 and aesa equipped jets with aew support. buying cold war era weapons is not going to help fighting modern warfare. also mirage rf sensor similar to lca/jf17 category but with self and israel ew suite. now back to ''what if'', cost of uae mirage resale is still unknown to me.. the deal becomes bad when jaguar and mirage gets decommissioned same time. better utilize money for infra or buy lca/rafale/ammunition. mirage is a outdated jet considering indian adversary and only advantage is flight control and israel munitions,ew suite plus mica but with out internal irst. iaf sq strength gets soon reduced by 5 and considering second hand mig29/mirage . 15/20 million per jet is good for keeping strength for short period. better make pipeline dream to reality or by from abroad. buying old jet dont help iaf future except used rafale, one way or another iaf need 300 mwf in next 2.5 decade and old mig29/mirage is not going to change that. snail's pace is the keyword[uae mirage, then taiwan mirage, then old mig29, again uae mirage].
 

johnj

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UAE wont be replacing their Mirages anytime soon as the replacement F-35 will take long time to reach UAE - likely not before 2027 the deliveries to start. So, UAE mirages will be too old by the time India can purchase them and also, by that time hopefully LCA Mk.2 will start joining the force and AMCA will be just on the horizon.

The upgrade of Mirage fleet already cost an arm and a leg - almost as much as getting new fleet. $2.2 billion for upgrading in a deal dating back in 2011! The Egypt is buying 30 spanking new rafale F4 s in $3.5 billion! There wouldn't be point adding the same cost to more outdated fighters.

Mirage indeed is a formidable fighter, yet its value addition vis-a-vis its potential service life will be less than optimum. Also, Mirages are not comparable to either Mig-21 or Jaguars.

Mig-21s primarily are used for Air patrol only and IAF can't wait to get rid off them as soon as enough no. of LCAs are received.

Jaguars on the other hand perform very different role of CAS and after Mig-27s were retired, it is currently sole aircraft that can do the job of low level nap-of-the-earth flying with enough payload to perform CAS. Rafale too can do that, but who is his right mind would use Rafale for CAS role?

Unless the cost of acquiring and upgrading justifies the relevancy of fighter, it doesn't matter what kind of fighter that is. Procurement of old Mirages and upgrading them would be too costly to justify the expenses.
jaguar - deep strike, mig27- cas, mig 23- air to air and like mig21 advanced , mirage 2000mk5 with israel can do all those much better and rafale is 3x mirage advanced. the problem is price and decommission and why-where[adding strength or for spare or keeping strength]. better buy more lca,mwf, used rafale.
 

Covfefe

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n that case, paf already having jf 17 with chinese aew and 100km plus aam
Not really helpful, 100km plus kills are not secured against fighters.
also they are deploying new sam systems
Irrelevant, SAMs are a threat no matter its Mirage or Sukhoi or Rafale.
f16bk50 better than 2000mk5
That's why I said A/B variants of F16- the ones procured in 80s.

15/20 million per jet is good for keeping strength for short period. better make pipeline dream to reality or by from abroad.
Don't know where you got these estimates for 2nd hand fighters, source?
one way or another iaf need 300 mwf in next 2.5 decade
Nobody denies that.

Crux of the matter is-

Our wishlist- More Rafales- good, More Mk1A- good, More MWF- good.

Ground realities- Rafale order placed? No. Mk1A production started? No. HAL's capacity increased? No. MWF/Tejas Mk2- still on modelling software. Underlying reasons can lead to endless discussions - low budget, import lobby, incompetent HAL,ADA,DRDO blah blah.... This Tejas Mk2/MWF was originally envisaged for 2018 and Tejas Mk1A will take the first flight in 2022. This is the reality.

IAF has to work with the realities and not with what it wishes them to be.
 

johnj

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Semantics. It played CAS role in Brit & Frech AFs.


Although, nothing trumps A-10 Warthog or Mig-25 in this role.
jaguar equipped with ccm, radar, eo pod, ew pod means can do cas,sead,naval strike, self defence, nuclear strike etc.
 

johnj

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Not really helpful, 100km plus kills are not secured against fighters.

Irrelevant, SAMs are a threat no matter its Mirage or Sukhoi or Rafale.

That's why I said A/B variants of F16- the ones procured in 80s.


Don't know where you got these estimates for 2nd hand fighters, source?

Nobody denies that.

Crux of the matter is-

Our wishlist- More Rafales- good, More Mk1A- good, More MWF- good.

Ground realities- Rafale order placed? No. Mk1A production started? No. HAL's capacity increased? No. MWF/Tejas Mk2- still on modelling software. Underlying reasons can lead to endless discussions - low budget, import lobby, incompetent HAL,ADA,DRDO blah blah.... This Tejas Mk2/MWF was originally envisaged for 2018 and Tejas Mk1A will take the first flight in 2022. This is the reality.

IAF has to work with the realities and not with what it wishes them to be.
1. 100km plus vs 80km minus and your theory works both ways. chinese aam better than us aam in paf expect ccm.
2.sam are very very .........revellant thats why f22/f35/etc. plus stand off weapons. now chinese sam were extreme for all three and paf sam not so much[but need support - rafale/sukhoi, mirage can avoid sam, but can be deadly if operated by well trained crew]
3.i got that, but they also brought upgraded a/b. i dnt know paf 80s f16 having bvr cap.
4. my estimation considering iaf economy not actual offer, but best for iaf.
5. does goi signed deal to buy uae mirage ? [from 1.5 decade ago, uae mirage , then taiwan mirage, unused mig29, now again uae mirage - give me update]. iaf need to buy uae mirage and then upgrade to current level before current process with in 40mil, and lca costs similar with aesa. mirage can only deploy mica, israel pgm, missile, no indian or 80 plus[50plus-your theory] aam.
 

johnj

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Woh hi to bola.

It can do more than pure CAS, but it still is the sole fighter today that can be used for CAS. AFAIK, Mirage-2Ks aren't meant for CAS.
yes. it is meant to counter f16 and mig29 in aerial fighting. rafale can also do cas with 6 hammer next gen missile. 3x more capable and 3x more efficient than jaguar on paper. missile more accurate than gombs. su34, f35b also capable of cas but not used by indian af. mig27 decommissioned without proper replacement. also iaf used jaguar for naval strike, now replaced by su30mki.
 

Tridev123

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We might be converting around a squadron strength of M2000 (~12) into M2000 "I" standards by upgrading them with Thompson-CSF RDY radar, EW suite, and integrating MICA missiles.

Rest we can keep for spare parts. This is a pretty good deal. One squadron more of 4th Gen. M2000I will greatly boost our combat capabilities.
What are the technical challenges in retrofitting our indigenous Uttam AESA radar in the Mirage 2000.Does the existing engine have enough power to support its installation.

Is there even a slim chance of the Mirage 2000 being able to fire the Meteor BVR missile if it had the Uttam AESA radar.

We have or in the process of developing many advanced technologies for our LCA Mk2 and AMCA aircraft. Maybe some of them can be ported on to the Mirage 2000.

I am assuming that the French will not have objections to sharing the source code for the Mirage 2000 FCS with us. To enable us to modify the aircraft to accept new radars and weapons.

This measure is only to keep the Mirage 2000 relevant till the MWF/LCA Mk2 enters duty in numbers.

An Mirage 2000 with an AESA radar will give the Chinese J10C a run for its money.
 

Tridev123

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I didn't know someone declared the US king of the world and gave it the power to decide who is a "bogus regimes"

"I won’t consider any government stoning people to death for social “crime” a normal country. Hopefully one day Iranians will overthrow the mullahs and bring their country to its former glory."

The US has great relations with Saudi Arabia and sells them top of the line F-15s but I guess there is no stoning or public executions happening there nor any elections.

Oh wait whats this? https://www.dailymail.co.uk/video/n...ge-appears-public-beheading-Saudi-Arabia.html

Do countries who bomb civilians and toddlers with drones come under "bogus countries"?
US military admits it killed 10 civilians and targeted wrong vehicle in Kabul airstrike

What about countries who torture prisoners for decades and hold them in Guantanamo Bay without a trial?

The members of this forum are pretty well read so no one is really going to buy Yankee propaganda.
Your reply is very convincing.
The US has only itself to blame for people to distrust it. Following double standards and not sticking to its ethics have created suspicion in many countries.

But then there are no permanent friends and enemies in international diplomacy.
So maybe we can work together on shared agendas. But we should be careful till the Yanks gain our trust by their actions.
 

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