IAF Mirage 2000

[BON PLAN]

Empty weight is 10 tons.
Internal fuel is 4.7 tons.
Add them its 15 tons.
Total thrust is 15 tons.
Rafale has 1:1 only when it has 'No Combat Load' with 100% fuel..
My numbers are quite alright..
View attachment 39758 View attachment 39759

Another time false.

Empty weight of single seater is 9850kg.

Add 4700 kf of fuel and 5 MICA (450 Kg) and the T/W is 1.

 

[BON PLAN]

I don't know where get you these internal assessments from.
I'm looking at plain raw numbers..
SuperHornet vs Hornet-
Carries more fuel ( 6.6 t vs 4.9 ton )
Carries more Armament ( 8.0t vs 6.4 t)
Has more thrust ( 20 tons vs 16 tons)
Has extra range ( 2300 km vs 2000 km)
Identical T/W at 50%fuel (1.12)

is more heavy. is less agile (2019 swiss eval)

 

[Bhurki]

Another time false.
View attachment 39760

Empty weight of single seater is 9850kg.

Add 4700 kf of fuel and 5 MICA (450 Kg) and the T/W is 1.

Ok.. So the 'combat load ' is 450 kg ?
i dont know why you're pushing it so hard ..
The fact remains rafale is underpowered in comparison to other fighters of same weight class...
Ef2000 has 18 tons of thrust at its disposal ..
Meaning when its loaded with actual combat loads of 4-5 tons. It'll outrun, outclimb the rafale..
Or do you really expect a rafale to fly around with nothing but 5 short range aam and nothing else ( fuel tanks etc)
Also mica weighs 112 kg

 

[Armand2REP]

withour radar, for the french M2000 D ....

Radars don't last forever, they get replaced during the MLU.

 

[vampyrbladez]

I don't know where get you these internal assessments from.
I'm looking at plain raw numbers..
SuperHornet vs Hornet-
Carries more fuel ( 6.6 t vs 4.9 ton )
Carries more Armament ( 8.0t vs 6.4 t)
Has more thrust ( 20 tons vs 16 tons)
Has extra range ( 2300 km vs 2000 km)
Identical T/W at 50%fuel (1.12)

https://www.dassault-aviation.com/en/defense/rafale/specifications-and-performance-data/

https://www.aviationsmilitaires.net/v2/base/view/Variant/7338.html

 

[vampyrbladez]

??? it was deeply beaten by a single seat F16 with 2 external tanks.

Better than SH18? maybe. SH18 is less impressive than legacy F18, as seen during this year swiss field tests.

https://militarymachine.com/f-35-vs-f-16/

Seeing is believing.



BTW that F 35A had it's combat software still being worked on. The above clips demonstrate an F 35A closest to the final configuration.

 

[Bhurki]

View attachment 39775

https://www.dassault-aviation.com/en/defense/rafale/specifications-and-performance-data/

View attachment 39776

https://www.aviationsmilitaires.net/v2/base/view/Variant/7338.html

??
You said it had a T/W of 1:1.5 with fuel and combat load... I'm not so learned so could you point it out...
Bdw, why did you quote the Hornet vs SH comment in this..? I had uploaded the same photos in the earlier comment..

 

[InfinityWarrior Thanos]

So you are saying that US DoD with literally trillions of funding accepted to buy 2500 planes that are inferior to what they wanted?...

Yes, one of the cons of having the largest Military Industrial complex, F-35 JSF program became too big to fail. Pentagon had to accept the jet because a trillion dollar was already invested. The production was spread out to various states to gain political backing in US. Pentagon had to accept it, they had no choice.

 

[InfinityWarrior Thanos]

Impressive that such a low cost fighter solution only clinch two small export deals.... Bu as an average US citizen you are not surprised.

After 737 MAX debacle, Boeing will happily accept the lower than usual prices.

 

[Armand2REP]

After 737 MAX debacle, Boeing will happily accept the lower than usual prices.

They just wrote off $10 billion in losses over the MAX debacle and still counting every day it is grounded, they can't afford losses on profitable sectors of the market.

 

[Flying Dagger]

except Jagar and Hawk, you are fully equipped with russian fighter. I doubt their spare parts to be cheap.

Former RM of India in his book revealed that Mirage 2000 get more budget and is expensive for spare parts support in comparison to other Russian jet.

With Russian it's not the cost of spare parts but the availability that was an issue which costed Mig corp a cut down in Mig 29 fleet size in 90s and it was the very much loved jet by the IAF then.

Radars don't last forever, they get replaced during the MLU.

Well actually they are made to last and support the life time of a jet.

Because the work was done at HAL which charges more than twice as many man hours as Dassault for the same job. Not to mention Indian taxes vs tax free French state orders.

The cost of man power for HAL is pretty cheap. HAL charges a very small amount to do the work.

We saw the same in different upgraded that they have done in the past like in Jaguar

 

[Armand2REP]

Well actually they are made to last and support the life time of a jet.

The life of the jet is 25 years, when you extend it to 40 a new radar set is required. Radar performance degrades over use, when it hits 20% degradation the entire set is pulled.

The cost of man power for HAL is pretty cheap. HAL charges a very small amount to do the work.

HAL charges an enormous amount for the same work. One only needs to look at the price difference between a Russian built Su-30 and a HAL built Su-30. The M2000 is just another example of how much more expensive HAL makes a job over the OEM.

We saw the same in different upgraded that they have done in the past like in Jaguar

No one else is upgrading Jaguars to compare prices.

 

[Flying Dagger]

HAL charges an enormous amount for the same work.


No one else is upgrading Jaguars to compare prices.

Price was quoted by other companies to do the same but HAL offered much cheaper than that.

Even recently Pratt and Whitney asked a bomb for integration of engine while HAL offered it pretty cheap. Though eventually the deal didn't go through due to 20 mn+ price asked for engine per jet .

 

[Flying Dagger]

The life of the jet is 25 years, when you extend it to 40 a new radar set is required. Radar performance degrades over use, when it hits 20% degradation the entire set is pulled.

Not true The quality material used in the radar insure it last long that is 40+ years and not just 25 even if there is some slight loss in performance it isn't necessary to replace them .

HAL charges an enormous amount for the same work. One only needs to look at the price difference between a Russian built Su-30 and a HAL built Su-30. The M2000 is just another example of how much more expensive HAL makes a job over the OEM.

The cost of su assembled by HAL from kits are actually cheaper it's the cost of those which are built from scratch which is higher. The reason is we have to import all raw materials and many parts like nut and bolts from Russia due to contractual issue and some others.

 

[Armand2REP]

Price was quoted by other companies to do the same but HAL offered much cheaper than that.

The DARIN upgrades were never tendered out for competition. HAL was the only one who was ever going to do it so there is no price quote to compare. The whole point of it was to get as much indigenous content as possible.

Even recently Pratt and Whitney asked a bomb for integration of engine while HAL offered it pretty cheap. Though eventually the deal didn't go through due to 20 mn+ price asked for engine per jet .

The last report I read was that Honeywell was the only one that had a compatible engine and IAF didn't like the price so they said no thanks, they will retire the aircraft when the engines go EOL. If they can get the HTFE-25 developed they could keep them in service much longer.

 

[vampyrbladez]

??
You said it had a T/W of 1:1.5 with fuel and combat load... I'm not so learned so could you point it out...
Bdw, why did you quote the Hornet vs SH comment in this..? I had uploaded the same photos in the earlier comment..

At 40% internal fuel. It gives 1:1.5.

Refer this for your queries about Hornet vs SH.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjAAegQIAhAB&usg=AOvVaw0KJ_HxWSyfxIILZ8TCZxh5

 

[Bhurki]

At 40% internal fuel. It gives 1:1.5.

Refer this for your queries about Hornet vs SH.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjAAegQIAhAB&usg=AOvVaw0KJ_HxWSyfxIILZ8TCZxh5

How?!?!?
Again stop bringing in SH18, we're talking about Rafale here..
Empty weight 10 tons..
40% fuel - 1.9 tons ( total 4.7 tons)
Without any 'combat load' the total is 12 tons..
And the thrust is 2x 7.5 tons= 15 tons.
That is 15:12 or 1.25:1 not 1.5:1
STOP PUSHING WRONG INFO!!!!

 

[vampyrbladez]

How?!?!?
Empty weight 10 tons..
40% fuel - 1.9 tons ( total 4.7 tons)
Without any 'combat load' the total is 12 tons..
And the thrust is 2x 7.5 tons= 15 tons.
That is 15:12 or 1.25:1 not 1.5:1
STOP PUSHING WRONG INFO!!!!
Stop pushing for

Empty Weight = 22000 lbs

Internal Fuel = 10300 lbs (50% = 5250 lbs)

Engine Max Thrust = 2 x 7.5 t = 15000 Kg = (33069.339 lbs)

MICA IR Missile Weight = 112 Kg (~ 247 lbs)

Meteor Missile Weight = 190 Kg (419 lbs)

Combat Load as per earlier snip @ 50% internal fuel :

22000 + 5250 + (4 * 247) = 28238 lbs

OR

22000 + 5250 + (2 * 247) + (2 * 419) = 28582

Therefore TWR = (33069.339 / 28238) = 1.17

OR

TWR = (33069.339 / 28582) = 1.15

Get your math right @Bhurki!

 

[Flying Dagger]

The DARIN upgrades were never tendered out for competition. HAL was the only one who was ever going to do it so there is no price quote to compare. The whole point of it was to get as much indigenous content as possible.


The last report I read was that Honeywell was the only one that had a compatible engine and IAF didn't like the price so they said no thanks, they will retire the aircraft when the engines go EOL. If they can get the HTFE-25 developed they could keep them in service much longer.

Jaguar upgrade were discussed unofficially with AngloFrench too the decision to go for in house was taken later considering the cost and upgrade on offer.

Then there was no turning back with HAL taking full control


No RR etc also offered their engine but yes my mistake there it was Honeywell F 125 which was picked .

It is somewhat over for Jaguar now.

Honeywell vs HAL it was then

HAL asked much lesser than the price quoted by honeywell for engine integration. It is one of the reason they increased the engine price or simply said we won't give unless we get the full contract or more money. IAF said no rightly it is useless we can buy SU for such price or mig 29 UPG .

In short coming back to original point of discussion, Mirage deal was over priced as are the spare and support provided Dassault . Former RM Late George Fernanades said the same in his book about the French mirage spare part cost vs the else we had .
We could have got a brand new Su for that price then.

And comparing it with F 15 upgrade package Japan is getting would be joke on another level .

 

[Flying Dagger]

Empty Weight = 22000 lbs

Internal Fuel = 10300 lbs (50% = 5250 lbs)

Engine Max Thrust = 2 x 7.5 t = 15000 Kg = (33069.339 lbs)

MICA IR Missile Weight = 112 Kg (~ 247 lbs)

Meteor Missile Weight = 190 Kg (419 lbs)

Combat Load as per earlier snip @ 50% internal fuel :

22000 + 5250 + (4 * 247) = 28238 lbs

OR

22000 + 5250 + (2 * 247) + (2 * 419) = 28582

Therefore TWR = (33069.339 / 28238) = 1.17

OR

TWR = (33069.339 / 28582) = 1.15

Get your math right @Bhurki!

It won't hurt if you could be polite ....

Where You copied from used 50% I fuel he used 40% I fuel

Which will easily make 1.17 turned into 1.25 .

Chill now